Robert Kraft Arrest Warrant Issued In Prostitution Sting
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:28 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Wonder what the NFL will/can do to him? I was in Atlanta during the week of Super Bowl this year and there were NFL sponsored anti-human trafficking media up in just about every hotel lobby. Little did they know the team that would win the SB is owned by a man who actively engages is human trafficking.


Lol Atlanta, no hookers there.


isnt there some data out there that suggests that the Super Bowl host city during Super Bowl week has the largest amount of trafficking victims in one US location than any other location for the entire year? (or something like that...not sure the exact phrasing)



Yeah, that's been an accepted stat thrown around, which has lead each SB host city to raise awareness of it and crack down. The only study I saw though was one done a few years ago, from ASU, which basically found there was an increase in online ads for sex and arrests. But that could be said for any large event that brings an increase in victims and perpetrators of any crime.

Regardless, it's a stigma surrounding the NFL's premier event and their most famous franchise owner just made it worse.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:07 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Buying a purse isn't a crime in the first place.


I think it may be in a few places. I recall NYC tried to pass a law to make it illegal to knowingly purchase counterfeit items a few years ago and it failed. One reason it failed was claims that would be impossible to enforce....while supporters pointed to places that have those laws on the books. (I am thinking it was other US locations....but I do not recall....nor do I recall exactly what any of the laws actually stated. It was a while ago...back during Bloomburg).


Come on dude . . . seriously? Buying a handbag is absolutely a legal activity. The fact that people chose to knowingly buy counterfeit ones doesn't change the legality buying a handbag. It merely reflects on the circumstances of how some people chose to acquire the handbag.


if you are telling me there are no cities or states with laws against buying counterfeit products.....I have not specific knowledge to counter the claim....maybe you are correct. If you are telling me that NYC did not attempt to make this a law during the Michael Bloomberg administration, then you are incorrect.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:53 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Buying a purse isn't a crime in the first place.


I think it may be in a few places. I recall NYC tried to pass a law to make it illegal to knowingly purchase counterfeit items a few years ago and it failed. One reason it failed was claims that would be impossible to enforce....while supporters pointed to places that have those laws on the books. (I am thinking it was other US locations....but I do not recall....nor do I recall exactly what any of the laws actually stated. It was a while ago...back during Bloomburg).


Come on dude . . . seriously? Buying a handbag is absolutely a legal activity. The fact that people chose to knowingly buy counterfeit ones doesn't change the legality buying a handbag. It merely reflects on the circumstances of how some people chose to acquire the handbag.




if you are telling me there are no cities or states with laws against buying counterfeit products.....I have not specific knowledge to counter the claim....maybe you are correct. If you are telling me that NYC did not attempt to make this a law during the Michael Bloomberg administration, then you are incorrect.


Quote:
It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods. Bringing them into the United States may result in civil or criminal penalties. Purchasing counterfeit goods supports criminal activities such as money laundering and trafficking in illegal guns and drugs. Remember, if it seems like a steal, it is.

https://www.cbp.gov/FakeGoodsRealDangers
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject:

Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

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John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject:

Former law enforcement officers sought in connection to prostitution probe

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Authorities are searching for several former law enforcement officers on the Treasure Coast in connection to a prostitution investigation of local spas.


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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It’s funny, I was going to use buying drugs as an analogue to frequenting prostitutes in terms of you know going in that there’s a significant chance you are supporting another, deeper level of criminal activity, even if you believe the main activity should be legal.

Touché.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:46 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Wonder what the NFL will/can do to him? I was in Atlanta during the week of Super Bowl this year and there were NFL sponsored anti-human trafficking media up in just about every hotel lobby. Little did they know the team that would win the SB is owned by a man who actively engages is human trafficking.


Lol Atlanta, no hookers there.


isnt there some data out there that suggests that the Super Bowl host city during Super Bowl week has the largest amount of trafficking victims in one US location than any other location for the entire year? (or something like that...not sure the exact phrasing)

No, that's never been shown to be true. Here's an article about sex work and sex trafficking arrests during the Atlanta SB: Deadspin
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:52 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Buying a purse isn't a crime in the first place.


I think it may be in a few places. I recall NYC tried to pass a law to make it illegal to knowingly purchase counterfeit items a few years ago and it failed. One reason it failed was claims that would be impossible to enforce....while supporters pointed to places that have those laws on the books. (I am thinking it was other US locations....but I do not recall....nor do I recall exactly what any of the laws actually stated. It was a while ago...back during Bloomburg).


Come on dude . . . seriously? Buying a handbag is absolutely a legal activity. The fact that people chose to knowingly buy counterfeit ones doesn't change the legality buying a handbag. It merely reflects on the circumstances of how some people chose to acquire the handbag.


if you are telling me there are no cities or states with laws against buying counterfeit products.....I have not specific knowledge to counter the claim....maybe you are correct. If you are telling me that NYC did not attempt to make this a law during the Michael Bloomberg administration, then you are incorrect.


Again . . . seriously? I can't tell if you are being obtuse or are just . . . well . . .

Buying a purse is a legal act. You can walk into a store in every city and buy as many as you like. The act of knowingly buying a counterfeit purse is a crime. The crime is intentionally buying the counterfeit good, not buying a purse.

Buying sexual services is always illegal (save the obvious exception of part of Nevada). The act itself is against the law . . . wholly.

This much is so blatantly obvious I don't know what you think you are demonstrating by arguing such a seriously flawed analogy. But whatever the reason, it's not a good look.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:57 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
adkindo wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Buying a purse isn't a crime in the first place.


I think it may be in a few places. I recall NYC tried to pass a law to make it illegal to knowingly purchase counterfeit items a few years ago and it failed. One reason it failed was claims that would be impossible to enforce....while supporters pointed to places that have those laws on the books. (I am thinking it was other US locations....but I do not recall....nor do I recall exactly what any of the laws actually stated. It was a while ago...back during Bloomburg).


Come on dude . . . seriously? Buying a handbag is absolutely a legal activity. The fact that people chose to knowingly buy counterfeit ones doesn't change the legality buying a handbag. It merely reflects on the circumstances of how some people chose to acquire the handbag.


if you are telling me there are no cities or states with laws against buying counterfeit products.....I have not specific knowledge to counter the claim....maybe you are correct. If you are telling me that NYC did not attempt to make this a law during the Michael Bloomberg administration, then you are incorrect.


Again . . . seriously? I can't tell if you are being obtuse or are just . . . well . . .

Buying a purse is a legal act. You can walk into a store in every city and buy as many as you like. The act of knowingly buying a counterfeit purse is a crime. The crime is intentionally buying the counterfeit good, not buying a purse.

Buying sexual services is always illegal (save the obvious exception of part of Nevada). The act itself is against the law . . . wholly.

This much is so blatantly obvious I don't know what you think you are demonstrating by arguing such a seriously flawed analogy. But whatever the reason, it's not a good look.


First, you could possibly be on the list of the last 3 people I would seek advice from about my "look", physical or otherwise. Second, you are correct that I did misunderstand your original premise in simply buying a purse, any purse. I did think you were referencing counterfeit purses. Finally, and weirdly you still end up wrong on the facts as demonstrated by NYC not adopting legislation to criminalize buying counterfeit products.....it is not illegal to purchase those products in the city, and from the 2 minutes of research I just did, it is not illegal to purchase counterfeit items for personal use in most US locations.....but as I stated previously, I can not confirm it is not illegal everywhere in the US.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject:

I realize I'm risking a suspension by responding here in OT, but I realize my approach has been off base so let me apologize to those who felt I was trolling. Sometimes, it's hard not to get abrasive when you disagree with someone(s) and I'm really going to try to change and improve how I come to the table with my arguments. Never been a fan of the "holier than thou" style, and yet, that's the exact style I've been engaging with you all in.

That said, let's make a distinction between what IS legal/illegal and whether something SHOULD be legal/illegal. I think we all agree solicitation is illegal so whether you agree with or not, you should follow the law.

So in my mind the real debate that is interesting is on whether or not you think solicitation of prostitution SHOULD be an illegal act going forward. If you think it shouldn't, I'm in agreement with you. If you think solicitation should be illegal, I would ask why?

To me there is only one reason why ATTEMPTING to do anything at all should be considered unlawful and that reason is .... because succeeding in the attempt is something we don't want to allow.

This is why I took issue with the argument that solicitation should be illegal for the reason that "you can never know" if you are supporting human trafficking. That line of thought can be applied to almost anything from attempting to purchase a handbag on eBay (you never know if you might end up with a counterfeit which are often produced via sweatshops and child labor) or a new iPhone from Craigslist (you won't know for sure it wasn't stolen), and so on.

I think OL brought up a good analogy which is drugs. Why is it we generally don't want to criminalize the attempt to purchase certain drugs but we do with others? I don't think it's because "we never know" if we're supporting a drug cartel or because the overlap might be significant. I think it's because we're generally accepting of the consumption of certain drugs and not others.

Soliciting a seller to buy a handbag on eBay COULD be inadvertently supporting child labor if it is counterfeit -- but should be OK because actually buying a handbag is acceptable.

Soliciting a seller to buy an iPhone on Craigslist COULD be inadvertently supporting a gang of violent thieves if it is stolen -- but should be OK because actually buying a phone is acceptable.

Soliciting a dealer to buy marijuana, even illegally, we don't want criminalized even though you may be supporting a drug cartel -- but we generally consider marijuana use acceptable.

However ... soliciting a dealer to buy flakka I think we DO want criminalized in spite of whether that supports a drug cartel or a local drugmaker because flakka is something we don't want people using.

So back to solicitation of prostitution.... it's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that there is an outcome we are philosophically fine with, but the attempt to realize that outcome should be unlawful. Is there ... any other example of where we do that?

Long post I know, but rather than get into the "circle of replies" which I've found myself too often involved in, figured it better to just put all my thoughts on the matter in fewer, albeit longer posts. Realize I represent a less popular, opposing view on many things but I'm really going to try my best here in how I communicate them.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:


First, you could possibly be on the list of the last 3 people I would seek advice from about my "look", physical or otherwise.


Whether or not you seek the advice doesn't change the merit of the advice. Pursuing a flawed analogy simply for the purposes of conflating a debate is an inherently foolish presentation. It'd odd that you felt the need to inject the subject of physical appearance in a discussion where doing so has no pertinence or context. It's an interesting, but hardly surprising, insight into personality.

Quote:
Second, you are correct that I did misunderstand your original premise in simply buying a purse, any purse. I did think you were referencing counterfeit purses. Finally, and weirdly you still end up wrong on the facts as demonstrated by NYC not adopting legislation to criminalize buying counterfeit products.....it is not illegal to purchase those products in the city, and from the 2 minutes of research I just did, it is not illegal to purchase counterfeit items for personal use in most US locations.....but as I stated previously, I can not confirm it is not illegal everywhere in the US.


:rolls eyes: It was you who made the assertion that there are laws regarding buying purses. (ME:Buying a purse isn't a crime in the first place. YOU: I think it may be in a few places.) I was merely elaborating on the discussion based on the assertion you made.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
jodeke wrote:
adkindo wrote:
just curious....is Kraft supposedly still in a relationship with Ricki Noel Lander? I recall she had a baby last year, and he claimed it was not his.....but was never clear if they were still dating or whatever.

Don't know if they're still dating. She said he was not the baby's father.


that is the PR angle if they are no longer dating....play the 77 year old widower who tried to have relationships in the past, but saw how unfair it was to put the female in the middle of a media spotlight, so he has avoided companionship in recent years.....and the loneliness just caused him to make a poor decision.

Is this an opinion or do you have something to validate it?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Alcohol's legal, marijuana's legal, prescription drugs are legal. So many legal things kill. I don't think prostitution is a killer. It's the oldest profession in history. Why not make it legal? Properly managed it could add monies to the tax coffer. Take it off the streets where it contributes to crime.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


What was so special about this place? It was a “day spa” in a shopping center. I can imagine one rich guy going to that particular place for whatever reason, but I’m starting to wonder whether we’re just beginning to learn about this story.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject:

The NYT is reporting that in a few cases some women had their passports confiscated, but that the police have found only one woman willing to talkto them yet:
Quote:
Yet making a trafficking case remains difficult, in part because the women who were victims may not want to cooperate with police. Only one has been talking to deputies, Sheriff Snyder said. He had lined up about a dozen Mandarin interpreters, but many other women refused to speak and were let go with an offer of assistance.

“I would never consider them prostitutes — it was really a rescue operation,” the sheriff said, training his anger at the men whose demand for sex kept the massage parlors in business. “The monsters are the men,” he added.

In addition to arresting men ranging in age from their 30s to at least one in his 80s, police charged several women who appeared to be overseeing the operation with racketeering, money laundering and prostitution.

It'll be interesting to see if prosecutors bring additional charges related to trafficking in the coming weeks.
Link: NYT
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Do you work in this area? NGO? Law enforcement? The courts? I'm curious as to your confidence in your expertise on this. If you have data to back up your claims about that large overlap along with the difficulty of parsing out the difference between women trafficked into the sex trade and sex workers, it would be really helpful.

Because I'm not confident or sufficiently well-informed on the issue, but I see people who study the industry, who do work for advocacy groups, and who are sex workers push back against that popular conflation, which has led to the terrible bi-partisan FOSTA/SESTA laws that lead to more harm for sex workers and has been followed by a noticeable uptick in sex trafficking in some cities (though its early in the lifespan of those laws and correlation can be difficult to prove).

Moreover, my instinct (which I betrayed earlier in this thread, shame on me) is to not trust cops. I'm also instinctually wary of America's harmful Puritanical history of shaming, shunning, and punishing sex and women's sexuality. And so a focus on sex trafficking seems to be an easy way to build bipartisan, broadbased support for Vice squad crackdowns on all prostitution that has echoes of the War on Drugs for me. But if you have data that supports that large overlap and the difficulty of parsing out trafficked women and sex workers that would go a long way toward assuaging my paranoia about the pigs.

Of course, I'll be spending time to do the same. It could end up being an illuminating discourse.


I actually got a lot of my information from a volunteer I work with whose background is in a sex workers rights group (she supports legalization btw). She hasn’t given me statistics, but she has given me a fairly grim and believable narrative:

When you ban something people want to have or do, you don’t eliminate it, you drive it into the black market. And because the black market does not by definition operate under the law, it is instead ruled by Darwinian rules. The survival of the fittest. This is why drug trade, and prohibition era liquor trade, are and were heavily controlled by ruthless, violent crime organizations.

The same applies to prostitution. Prostitutes have no workplace rights, because their work is a crime, and thus they are and always have been heavily organized and coerced by violent men, be it pimps, local gangs, or organizations like the Italian and Russian mafias. Drug addiction and physical intimidation have been the stock tools of keeping the workers in line. Importing workers who are already at your mercy is a particularly good way to maximize your control, and thus women from Asia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America have always been brought in and exploited. Exploiting prostitutes has historically comprised a huge profit center for organized crime groups. And those groups have penetrated clientele all the way up to the very high level of premium escorts.

So my assumption isn’t based on the police. In fact, the illegality and the way police treat prostitution have a lot to do with why trafficking is possible and lucrative. Legalization would do for prostitution much what the end of prohibition did for liquor. it would create the simplest of things, a legitimate, regulatable workplace with workers who legally exist. Lacking that, you are dealing with a black market heavily penetrated by organized crime, organizations for whom trafficking is good business. And with limited exceptions, you can’t be entirely sure you aren’t dealing with coerced workers. In many cases, such as massage parlors, you can be fairly assured that you are.

Thank you for the great response and for sharing about your colleague's advocacy experience. The key distinction seems to be one of product versus service in making these comparisons - the service providers in sex work don't require the same capital investment, ongoing operating expenses, and need for a broadbased illicit distribution network to reach their customers like booze (outside of the occasional bathtub mint julep) and narcotics obviously require. The internet and social media have also been liberating for enterprising escorts, and though no doubt there is trafficking in that sector of the industry, the gay porn rent boy with his own website doesn't seem likely to be someone trafficked under the velvet glove clad iron fist of his vicious pimp.

Accurate data is so sparse, and we seem to be making facially common sense arguments based on potentially false equivalencies and past precedent from less technologically sophisticated eras. The truism that black markets produce exploitation doesn't preclude that those service providers who are trying to control their own bodies and livelihoods outside of exploitative power aren't pervasive.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject:

My point was never that true independent purveyors don’t exist, nor to apply a percentage to them, merely to point out that the coerced also exist in every sector, and thus partaking carries with it at least some risk you are patronizing one such person.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


What was so special about this place? It was a “day spa” in a shopping center. I can imagine one rich guy going to that particular place for whatever reason, but I’m starting to wonder whether we’re just beginning to learn about this story.


My thoughts exactly.

This story reminds me of the Jeffrey Epstein story which I just started reading about. Probably belongs in the political thread, but that guy knows names of famous people involved in child prostitution rings, and has been protected by very powerful people. I wonder if this day spa had other nefarious things going on.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:22 pm    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


What was so special about this place? It was a “day spa” in a shopping center. I can imagine one rich guy going to that particular place for whatever reason, but I’m starting to wonder whether we’re just beginning to learn about this story.


My thoughts exactly.

This story reminds me of the Jeffrey Epstein story which I just started reading about. Probably belongs in the political thread, but that guy knows names of famous people involved in child prostitution rings, and has been protected by very powerful people. I wonder if this day spa had other nefarious things going on.


Just like my question about William Barr and others

What kind of human being Protects Donald Trump from prosecution
What kind of human Protects beings who molest children repeatedly
The Pope?
People with so much money they're above the law?

I just cannot find a single cell in me that has the imaginative ability to defend Trump from prosecution. He is the greatest danger the USA has ever faced and William Barr is willing to protect the people and countries who RAPED OUR DEMOCRACY? How the (bleep) do these people find the courage to keep stealing oxygen??
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:19 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


I have seen a lot of speculation that Tiger Woods could be named, who happens to live in Jupiter Florida.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:58 am    Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


I have seen a lot of speculation that Tiger Woods could be named, who happens to live in Jupiter Florida.


Tiger only messes w/ white blonde girls
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


I have seen a lot of speculation that Tiger Woods could be named, who happens to live in Jupiter Florida.


Tiger only messes w/ white blonde girls


Tru Dat!!!
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dont_be_a_wuss
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Ex-Citigroup President Havens Caught Up in Prostitution Probe

Quote:
John Havens, Citigroup Inc.’s former president and chief operating officer, has been caught up in the same prostitution bust that has also ensnared New England Patriots owner Bob Kraft.


LINK


Mason and Ireland had a quote from an NFL writer that names much bigger than Kraft will come out.


I have seen a lot of speculation that Tiger Woods could be named, who happens to live in Jupiter Florida.


Tiger only messes w/ white blonde girls


His current, long time, serious girlfriend who he says "I love you" to is a redhead.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:46 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
My point was never that true independent purveyors don’t exist, nor to apply a percentage to them, merely to point out that the coerced also exist in every sector, and thus partaking carries with it at least some risk you are patronizing one such person.

No worries, I'm just curious if perpetuating a risk based perspective may disempower providers and accentuate the risk of trafficking harm at the same time.
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