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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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 Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player” |
Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy. |
There are levels to this. Scottie has never won an MVP and finals MVP. Scottie was a great sidekick, but Dirk won his title as the main guy. Besides being a better defender and having won five more rings, Dirk has better numbers and overall should be greater on the all-time list. |
Hakeem is better all-around than Shaq? So dat make him betta, right...? |
Shaq has the accolades and overall better numbers to prove his greatness over Hakeem. You try to make it seem like it’s about one thing, but I value their whole body of work to prove my point. It’s a combination of stats, accolades, production, longevity, etc. LeBron has the clear edge of Kobe when comparing their whole body of work. |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player” |
Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy. |
There are levels to this. Scottie has never won an MVP and finals MVP. Scottie was a great sidekick, but Dirk won his title as the main guy. Besides being a better defender and having won five more rings, Dirk has better numbers and overall should be greater on the all-time list. |
Hakeem is better all-around than Shaq? So dat make him betta, right...? |
Shaq has the accolades and overall better numbers to prove his greatness over Hakeem. You try to make it seem like it’s about one thing, but I value their whole body of work to prove my point. It’s a combination of stats, accolades, production, longevity, etc. LeBron has the clear edge of Kobe when comparing their whole body of work. |
Accolades between Shaq and Hakeem actually look pretty even. Whatever slight edge Shaq might have on All-NBA teams Hakeem matches it or surpasses it with his All-Defense and DPOY.
Also, Hakeem never played with Kobe, Wade, Penny, LeBron, Nash, Celtics Big 3 etc. So he won more with less...
As you said, it's not just about one thing... |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq:
4x Champion
3x Finals MVP
1x MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA
3x All-Defense
2x Scoring Champ
Best help: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Penny, Nash, etc.
Hakeem:
2x Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP
12x All-Star
12x All-NBA
9x All-Defense
2x DPOY
3x Block Champ
2x Rebound Champ
Best help: Past his prime Drexler, Ralph Sampson, Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
If that's the case then you wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread trying to plead your case. But yet here you are...
The funniest part about all this is that if this were an MJ vs LeBron or Kareem vs LeBron thread, you probably wouldn't even bother. But god forbid Kobe gets put in the same sentence. So triggering for some of you... |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | Shaq:
4x Champion
3x Finals MVP
1x MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA
3x All-Defense
2x Scoring Champ
Best help: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Penny, Nash, etc.
Hakeem:
2x Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP
12x All-Star
12x All-NBA
9x All-Defense
2x DPOY
3x Block Champ
2x Rebound Champ
Best help: Past his prime Drexler, Ralph Sampson, Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell |
Shaq had a higher PER in both regular season and playoffs. More win shares. Better all-around numbers in both playoffs and regular. When you combined that with their accolades, Shaq is the clear-cut winner. I see what you’re trying to do, but Kobe has the “rings” narrative over LeBron like Shaq has over Hakeem, but unlike Hakeem, LeBron’s whole body of work gives him the edge over Kobe. |
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yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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KCP has been on the Lakers for 3 years and his thread has 145 pages.
This thread has 98 pages in 1 month. 
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | Shaq:
4x Champion
3x Finals MVP
1x MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA
3x All-Defense
2x Scoring Champ
Best help: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Penny, Nash, etc.
Hakeem:
2x Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP
12x All-Star
12x All-NBA
9x All-Defense
2x DPOY
3x Block Champ
2x Rebound Champ
Best help: Past his prime Drexler, Ralph Sampson, Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell |
Shaq had a higher PER in both regular season and playoffs. More win shares. Better all-around numbers in both playoffs and regular. When you combined that with their accolades, Shaq is the clear-cut winner. I see what you’re trying to do, but Kobe has the “rings” narrative over LeBron like Shaq has over Hakeem, but unlike Hakeem, LeBron’s whole body of work gives him the edge over Kobe. |
Ah, PER. The advanced stat I was told by Bron Stans was now worthless and antiquated.. But now all of a sudden it has value again... |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | Shaq:
4x Champion
3x Finals MVP
1x MVP
15x All-Star
14x All-NBA
3x All-Defense
2x Scoring Champ
Best help: Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Penny, Nash, etc.
Hakeem:
2x Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x MVP
12x All-Star
12x All-NBA
9x All-Defense
2x DPOY
3x Block Champ
2x Rebound Champ
Best help: Past his prime Drexler, Ralph Sampson, Robert Horry, Rookie Sam Cassell |
Shaq had a higher PER in both regular season and playoffs. More win shares. Better all-around numbers in both playoffs and regular. When you combined that with their accolades, Shaq is the clear-cut winner. I see what you’re trying to do, but Kobe has the “rings” narrative over LeBron like Shaq has over Hakeem, but unlike Hakeem, LeBron’s whole body of work gives him the edge over Kobe. |
Ah, PER. The advanced stat I was told by Bron Stans was now worthless and antiquated.. But now all of a sudden it has value again...
Ah win shares. The stat that has Artis Gilmore and John Stockton int he Top 10. Reggie Miller and Chris Paul over Magic Johnson, Hakeem, Kobe, Larry Bird, Jerry West, Kevin Durant...
Well, when you put it that way...
Last edited by Batguano on Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
If that's the case then you wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread trying to plead your case. But yet here you are...
The funniest part about all this is that if this were an MJ vs LeBron or Kareem vs LeBron thread, you probably wouldn't even bother. But god forbid Kobe gets put in the same sentence. So triggering for some of you... |
I actually have both MJ and Kareem over LeBron. They both have the accolades and whole body of work to give them the edge over LeBron. However, I do think that LeBron will end up greater than Kareem when he’s done playing. MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. I don’t make it personal. It’s not about who I like more or who’s more entertaining. I don’t let bias cloud my judgment. Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. MJ beats LeBron in not only accolades, but the advance data favors him as well. Let’s just say if Kobe was as efficient as MJ was, this would’ve been a MJ vs Kobe thread instead. |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
If that's the case then you wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread trying to plead your case. But yet here you are...
The funniest part about all this is that if this were an MJ vs LeBron or Kareem vs LeBron thread, you probably wouldn't even bother. But god forbid Kobe gets put in the same sentence. So triggering for some of you... |
I actually have both MJ and Kareem over LeBron. They both have the accolades and whole body of work to give them the edge over LeBron. However, I do think that LeBron will end up greater than Kareem when he’s done playing. MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. I don’t make it personal. It’s not about who I like more or who’s more entertaining. I don’t let bias cloud my judgment. Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. MJ beats LeBron in not only accolades, but the advance data favors him as well. Let’s just say if Kobe was as efficient as MJ was, this would’ve been a MJ vs Kobe thread instead. |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
If that's the case then you wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread trying to plead your case. But yet here you are...
The funniest part about all this is that if this were an MJ vs LeBron or Kareem vs LeBron thread, you probably wouldn't even bother. But god forbid Kobe gets put in the same sentence. So triggering for some of you... |
I actually have both MJ and Kareem over LeBron. They both have the accolades and whole body of work to give them the edge over LeBron. However, I do think that LeBron will end up greater than Kareem when he’s done playing. MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. I don’t make it personal. It’s not about who I like more or who’s more entertaining. I don’t let bias cloud my judgment. Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. MJ beats LeBron in not only accolades, but the advance data favors him as well. Let’s just say if Kobe was as efficient as MJ was, this would’ve been a MJ vs Kobe thread instead. |
So you have the guy who has 2 Finals MVPs for his 6 rings and never won without another Top 10 player as your #2.
Yeah, no "bias" there...
And no, I don't care about highschool and college careers when measuring NBA professional GOATs... |
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L4L
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: |
Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. |
What “advanced” data? You’ve only posted box-score derivative stats like PER and WinShares. |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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My top 10
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. LeBron
4. Shaq
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Hakeem
8. Bird
9. Wilt
10. Duncan |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| L4L wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: |
Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. |
What “advanced” data? You’ve only posted box-score derivative stats like PER and WinShares. |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2260
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | L4L wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: |
Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. |
What “advanced” data? You’ve only posted box-score derivative stats like PER and WinShares. |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
So how come Hakeem was able to win with WAY LESS help than Shaq?
Imagine giving Hakeem Kobe, Wade, Penny, LeBron, Nash, etc... Yikes... |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron. |
Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...
That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH) |
So it shouldn’t be about career averages? I guess it should just be about Russell’s three seasons of averaging a triple double being greater than LeBron’s entire career, right?
LeBron went from having Kyrie and Love as his second options to playing with a bunch misfits in his first year with the Lakers. The same Lakers that were on pace to overachieved if LeBron hadn’t got injured. I won’t nitpick about what if, that’s something you seem to like to do. Overall, rings and stats aren’t the only factors to use when debating and comparing players career. No matter how you twist your narrative, LeBron’s whole body of work is greater than Kobe’s. |
If that's the case then you wouldn't be spending so much time in this thread trying to plead your case. But yet here you are...
The funniest part about all this is that if this were an MJ vs LeBron or Kareem vs LeBron thread, you probably wouldn't even bother. But god forbid Kobe gets put in the same sentence. So triggering for some of you... |
I actually have both MJ and Kareem over LeBron. They both have the accolades and whole body of work to give them the edge over LeBron. However, I do think that LeBron will end up greater than Kareem when he’s done playing. MJ will always be the GOAT in my eyes. I don’t make it personal. It’s not about who I like more or who’s more entertaining. I don’t let bias cloud my judgment. Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. MJ beats LeBron in not only accolades, but the advance data favors him as well. Let’s just say if Kobe was as efficient as MJ was, this would’ve been a MJ vs Kobe thread instead. |
So you have the guy who has 2 Finals MVPs for his 6 rings and never won without another Top 10 player as your #2.
Yeah, no "bias" there...
And no, I don't care about highschool and college careers when measuring NBA professional GOATs... |
What’s your top 10? |
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L4L
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 291
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
I’m trying to point out to you that you’re misusing statistics. Even “advanced” metrics like PER are created with specific assumptions on how valuable certain actions are. Assists are given a weight, rebounds, points, turnovers, etc. and this is all decided by the creator of the stat. It is a judgment call and entirely subjective. Who is to say a rebound is 1.1 value points and an assist is 1.5 especially when not all assists are of the same value? Nevertheless, these stats make these assumptions.
If you’re trying to tell apart D-Fish from Magic, you can come to a pretty strong conclusion in favor of Magic just from box score stats. This is not the case for stars like Shaq and Kobe. The error bars are too large. Saying this guy averaged a few more points and had 2% higher FG% isn’t definitive proof of an edge on the floor.
No serious statistician could come to that kind of conclusion on a subject as complex as a team sport. It doesn’t actually make any sense and you’re wielding these numbers as if they’re proof of something when they just aren’t.
Not all points, rebounds, and assists are created equal. Reading a box score like they are is going to lead to some silly conclusions. |
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LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| george w kush wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B? |
Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.
Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late |
More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that. |
Don’t bother trying to explain this to them. They know the data doesn’t support Kobe so their knee jerk response to anything data related is usually a combination of ‘there’s more to basketball then numbers’ or stating that they play hoops at the local YMCA and you don’t so therefore they’re right and you’re wrong. |
There is more to the game than the raw data.
To say otherwise is obtuse |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | L4L wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: |
Kobe was great in his own right and should be in the top 10 of everyone’s list, but I can’t sit back and say he’s a greater and more impactful all-around player than LeBron when there’s so much data to prove otherwise. |
What “advanced” data? You’ve only posted box-score derivative stats like PER and WinShares. |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
So how come Hakeem was able to win with WAY LESS help than Shaq?
Imagine giving Hakeem Kobe, Wade, Penny, LeBron, Nash, etc... Yikes... |
To be fair, Hakeem never had to face MJ in the post season. Shaq’s main problem was his lack of work ethic and motivation to pushed himself to the limit to be in the conversation for GOAT. He had raw talent, but he was lazy and had a giant ego. Hakeem was more of a team player in terms of team bonding and chemistry and had the skill set and work ethic to win with lesser talents. |
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LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: | | I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player” |
Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy. |
There are levels to this. Scottie has never won an MVP and finals MVP. Scottie was a great sidekick, but Dirk won his title as the main guy. Besides being a better defender and having won five more rings, Dirk has better numbers and overall should be greater on the all-time list. |
Hakeem is better all-around than Shaq? So dat make him betta, right...? |
Get ‘em |
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LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| L4L wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
I’m trying to point out to you that you’re misusing statistics. Even “advanced” metrics like PER are created with specific assumptions on how valuable certain actions are. Assists are given a weight, rebounds, points, turnovers, etc. and this is all decided by the creator of the stat. It is a judgment call and entirely subjective. Who is to say a rebound is 1.1 value points and an assist is 1.5 especially when not all assists are of the same value? Nevertheless, these stats make these assumptions.
If you’re trying to tell apart D-Fish from Magic, you can come to a pretty strong conclusion in favor of Magic just from box score stats. This is not the case for stars like Shaq and Kobe. The error bars are too large. Saying this guy averaged a few more points and had 2% higher FG% isn’t definitive proof of an edge on the floor.
No serious statistician could come to that kind of conclusion on a subject as complex as a team sport. It doesn’t actually make any sense and you’re wielding these numbers as if they’re proof of something when they just aren’t.
Not all points, rebounds, and assists are created equal. Reading a box score like they are is going to lead to some silly conclusions. |
Nice post. Too good for some posters here |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | L4L wrote: | | NBAFAN24 wrote: |
The raw career numbers favor Shaq. You can say Hakeem was better defensively and more skilled, but Shaq was more dominant and impactful. |
I’m trying to point out to you that you’re misusing statistics. Even “advanced” metrics like PER are created with specific assumptions on how valuable certain actions are. Assists are given a weight, rebounds, points, turnovers, etc. and this is all decided by the creator of the stat. It is a judgment call and entirely subjective. Who is to say a rebound is 1.1 value points and an assist is 1.5 especially when not all assists are of the same value? Nevertheless, these stats make these assumptions.
If you’re trying to tell apart D-Fish from Magic, you can come to a pretty strong conclusion in favor of Magic just from box score stats. This is not the case for stars like Shaq and Kobe. The error bars are too large. Saying this guy averaged a few more points and had 2% higher FG% isn’t definitive proof of an edge on the floor.
No serious statistician could come to that kind of conclusion on a subject as complex as a team sport. It doesn’t actually make any sense and you’re wielding these numbers as if they’re proof of something when they just aren’t.
Not all points, rebounds, and assists are created equal. Reading a box score like they are is going to lead to some silly conclusions. |
Nice post. Too good for some posters here |
Agreed. A very good post. |
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NBAFAN24
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2010
Posts: 1105
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I don’t need a “hype man”. LeBron is simply greater in my book. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. It’s not the end of the world. |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| NBAFAN24 wrote: | | I don’t need a “hype man”. LeBron is simply greater in my book. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. It’s not the end of the world. |
There is no right or wrong answer here man! |
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