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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:42 pm    Post subject:

Gotcha. Fwiw, I want Terry to succeed in the league. I have an theme that I adhere to, in which I want all players to make it. Unfortunately, not everyone can make the NBA, but they can definitely succeed greatly at international leagues and maybe transfer later. That being said, for what the Lakers do, and for what I've seen of other prospects, the Lakers may not be the best opportunity for Terry. It may definitely be better for other prospects.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
deal wrote:
I, for one, didn't think Trae Young would survive in the NBA, yet, there he is light as ever...B. Ingram ?


Those are special players of course, but, this league & its players surprise you, IMO.


Trae has other athletic tools to compensate. Change of speed, change of direction, and his best skill is passing, not shooting.

Brandon Ingram, wingspan of centers while playing wing. Proof of playing physical at Duke when Amile Jefferson got hurt and he played 4. Excelled at it and led the NCAA at PPP in Iso.

But if you're banking on Terry being "special" athletically and just adding on 30lbs without losing flexibility and fluidity, then that's your risk of a pick, not mine.

IMHO, he added strength, just to get to a baseline level of strength. Fwiw, De'Aaron Fox weighed the same, but he too, is a physical guard (proof in the FTr), with elite speed/quickness, etc.

For what the Lakers do, I don't see how Terry is as easy of a fit, especially defensively. I saw enough of Caruso getting pushed around, and KCP vs bigger wings. Why would I opt for Terry? Because he's a special shooter? Cassius Winston isn't?

You're reaching big time on the Caruso crack. I bet his Synergy data shows him to be a good to great interior defender for a guard.

Winston would be a fine pick, sure, but he's almost three years older and is shorter than Terry. I mean, why would I draft Patrick Williams when I could just have Obi Toppin?

Terry is nothing like Trae Young, true, but his game is comparable to Steph Curry though he's obviously not been as good in college nor will he ever be as good as a pro (shocker when discussing a future first ballot HOFer, I know). I still don't know how you've come to see Terry as a skinny Quinn Cook, but I think you're way off.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Gotcha. Fwiw, I want Terry to succeed in the league. I have an theme that I adhere to, in which I want all players to make it. Unfortunately, not everyone can make the NBA, but they can definitely succeed greatly at international leagues and maybe transfer later. That being said, for what the Lakers do, and for what I've seen of other prospects, the Lakers may not be the best opportunity for Terry. It may definitely be better for other prospects.

How so? The Lakers desperately lack motion shooting to the point they may have to (over)pay KCP upwards of $20M this summer because they have no way of replacing his movement floor spacing.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
deal wrote:
I, for one, didn't think Trae Young would survive in the NBA, yet, there he is light as ever...B. Ingram ?


Those are special players of course, but, this league & its players surprise you, IMO.


Trae has other athletic tools to compensate. Change of speed, change of direction, and his best skill is passing, not shooting.

Brandon Ingram, wingspan of centers while playing wing. Proof of playing physical at Duke when Amile Jefferson got hurt and he played 4. Excelled at it and led the NCAA at PPP in Iso.

But if you're banking on Terry being "special" athletically and just adding on 30lbs without losing flexibility and fluidity, then that's your risk of a pick, not mine.

IMHO, he added strength, just to get to a baseline level of strength. Fwiw, De'Aaron Fox weighed the same, but he too, is a physical guard (proof in the FTr), with elite speed/quickness, etc.

For what the Lakers do, I don't see how Terry is as easy of a fit, especially defensively. I saw enough of Caruso getting pushed around, and KCP vs bigger wings. Why would I opt for Terry? Because he's a special shooter? Cassius Winston isn't?

You're reaching big time on the Caruso crack. I bet his Synergy data shows him to be a good to great interior defender for a guard.

Winston would be a fine pick, sure, but he's almost three years older and is shorter than Terry. I mean, why would I draft Patrick Williams when I could just have Obi Toppin?

Terry is nothing like Trae Young, true, but his game is comparable to Steph Curry though he's obviously not been as good in college nor will he ever be as good as a pro (shocker when discussing a future first ballot HOFer, I know). I still don't know how you've come to see Terry as a skinny Quinn Cook, but I think you're way off.


I know Caruso is an excellent defender. But I'm annoyed how he got pushed around a bit as an individual defender on drives. That shoulder bump can go far, and he's gotten considerably bigger. That doesn't directly show in terms of interior defense.

My point with Winston is, both of their best strengths is their pull up PnR shooting. Winston isn't a great finisher at the rim. I think Terry had the benefit of additional spacing in a better offense to help improve his numbers. Unless something changes pre-draft to change my mind about his athletic tools, I don't see it.

It's not youth I'm looking for. I prefer youth + physical tools. I've been very consistent with that. THT and Ingram had the wingspan. Randle had the rebounding motor. Thomas Bryant was a sprinter up and down the floor and still plays with outlier motor. Bonga was a PG overseas with wing size. Melton had the outlier basketball instinct defensively.

What is it with Tyrell Terry? Is it a first step? Overall speed? Outlier strength? Physical play? Vertical? Or the idea that everyone wants him to be Nash?

I think he's better than Quinn Cook, but I also think, Cook is a pull up shooter, a willing C&S 3pt shooter. Yes, he's older and that's fine. What other tools does Cook have to make him more dynamic as a point guard?

So, what does it for you? I'm a lot clearer on other PGs than Terry and fwiw, Terry is a point of contention on twitter too, and all they point to is the shooting.

So then why don't I just get Isaiah Joe with more size and better defense if that's the point? Why don't I just aim for Flynn when I think he's a considerably better defender, slightly bigger frame, and a better PnR player that doesn't default to shooting?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:58 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Gotcha. Fwiw, I want Terry to succeed in the league. I have an theme that I adhere to, in which I want all players to make it. Unfortunately, not everyone can make the NBA, but they can definitely succeed greatly at international leagues and maybe transfer later. That being said, for what the Lakers do, and for what I've seen of other prospects, the Lakers may not be the best opportunity for Terry. It may definitely be better for other prospects.

How so? The Lakers desperately lack motion shooting to the point they may have to (over)pay KCP upwards of $20M this summer because they have no way of replacing his movement floor spacing.


Defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject:

Is it realistic to think that Terry could turn into a Seth Curry-type player?

Not sure that’s the guy I’d be looking at for us
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject:

alleyoop wrote:
Is it realistic to think that Terry could turn into a Seth Curry-type player?

Not sure that’s the guy I’d be looking at for us


I would say that's a low to median outcome.

I don't agree with this dude 100%, but I agree with that initial assessment. And imho, for the modern NBA, you can't really have these issues at PG.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVICX31QkqA
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:09 pm    Post subject:

How much difference is there between Terry and Anfernee Simons?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:18 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Quote:
Wasserman: Stanford's Tyrell Terry got people talking by measuring around 6'3" and weighing in at 174 pounds, a notable difference from the 6'2", 160 pounds Stanford lists him as. I've heard Terry linked to the Los Angeles Lakers.


Even at 174 AFTER the strength gain?

Liiiigggghhhtttt

More interested in the possibility he may not be done growing.


You can just tell that Terry is a late bloomer that will continue to fill out, add strength and potentially even grow.

The fact that his body still has room to fill-out is a good sign - it shows that he didn't dominate by being the biggest/strongest player on the court. A lot of draft bust are because they were able to dominate CBB by being more physically mature.

I guess you'd pass on all these players because they were light.

Zach Lavine was 181 pounds when drafted at 6'6".
SGA 180 at 6'6".
De'Andre Fox 170.
Jordan Clarskon was only 186 when drafted.
Schroder 165.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Quote:
Wasserman: Stanford's Tyrell Terry got people talking by measuring around 6'3" and weighing in at 174 pounds, a notable difference from the 6'2", 160 pounds Stanford lists him as. I've heard Terry linked to the Los Angeles Lakers.


Even at 174 AFTER the strength gain?

Liiiigggghhhtttt

More interested in the possibility he may not be done growing.


You can just tell that Terry is a late bloomer that will continue to fill out, add strength and potentially even grow.

The fact that his body still has room to fill-out is a good sign - it shows that he didn't dominate by being the biggest/strongest player on the court. A lot of draft bust are because they were able to dominate CBB by being more physically mature.

I guess you'd pass on all these players because they were light.

Zach Lavine was 181 pounds when drafted at 6'6".
SGA 180 at 6'6".
De'Andre Fox 170.
Jordan Clarskon was only 186 when drafted.
Schroder 165.


I see the big difference between Terry and the players you listed is athleticism. Maybe he can narrow the gap with training,
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
How so? The Lakers desperately lack motion shooting to the point they may have to (over)pay KCP upwards of $20M this summer because they have no way of replacing his movement floor spacing.

I have been wrong before and I know that I will be wrong again, but I seriously doubt that KCP gets a $20 million annual contract this year. With the pandemic causing a large drop in revenue and with player salaries being a share of said revenue, I don't expect much money to be available for free agents. This off-season will be the opposite of 2016 when there was lots of money floating around and the Lakers wasted it on Deng and Mozgov. AD will get his money as will other established stars. The middle tier of players--like KCP--will be lucky to get much more than the MLE. I will be very surprised if KCP gets an offer of more than $8.5 million (his player option for 2020-21).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:35 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I’m not saying Terry is the next Curry especially in terms of skill set by any stretch of the imagination. Just that being 6’3 and 174, I wouldn’t classify that as being “ligghhhhht” when we’ve had players with comparable heights/weights succeed just fine. Hell even lighter.


Considering LAL is a big team, and even Caruso got pushed around by some PGs and SGs at 200lbs, in the playoffs, that's light.


Now THAT I strongly disagree with. We literally saw Caruso box out BAM in the finals on that free throw play. Caruso ain’t a pushover and is an elite defending guard in the NBA. Yeah he got pushed a bit by Jimmy Butler but so did everyone else on our team. Dude was killing it against us until AD and Lebron decided “enough was enough” in Game 6.

I do agree on how we are usually a bigger team that taking on a 6’3 guard would be strange for us.

Yet what guard in this draft is tall enough that also has the lateral quickness to defend guards and point guard instincts on offense? All the point guards in our range are 6’3 or below in height. Unless we want to train someone we think someone like Desmand Bane is THAT guy?

Or if we train up THT as that guy given his 6’4 and ridiculous 7 foot wingspan.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:24 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Quote:
Wasserman: Stanford's Tyrell Terry got people talking by measuring around 6'3" and weighing in at 174 pounds, a notable difference from the 6'2", 160 pounds Stanford lists him as. I've heard Terry linked to the Los Angeles Lakers.


Even at 174 AFTER the strength gain?

Liiiigggghhhtttt

More interested in the possibility he may not be done growing.


You can just tell that Terry is a late bloomer that will continue to fill out, add strength and potentially even grow.

The fact that his body still has room to fill-out is a good sign - it shows that he didn't dominate by being the biggest/strongest player on the court. A lot of draft bust are because they were able to dominate CBB by being more physically mature.

I guess you'd pass on all these players because they were light.

Zach Lavine was 181 pounds when drafted at 6'6".
SGA 180 at 6'6".
De'Andre Fox 170.
Jordan Clarskon was only 186 when drafted.
Schroder 165.


I see the big difference between Terry and the players you listed is athleticism. Maybe he can narrow the gap with training,


I agree that other than SGA, the rest are superior athletes, however, TT might be the best shooter of the bunch.

Bottom line is there are a lot of really good NBA players that were drafted around ~180 pounds.

If TT was slightly bigger, more athletic, he would be a lottery pick and not around at 28.

Given his shooting ability, he has the chance to be way better than his draft position, especially if he does grow 2-3 more inches. He is exactly the type of player the Laker should be drafting - swinging for the fence instead of the safe pick.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:34 pm    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
I’m not saying Terry is the next Curry especially in terms of skill set by any stretch of the imagination. Just that being 6’3 and 174, I wouldn’t classify that as being “ligghhhhht” when we’ve had players with comparable heights/weights succeed just fine. Hell even lighter.


Considering LAL is a big team, and even Caruso got pushed around by some PGs and SGs at 200lbs, in the playoffs, that's light.


Now THAT I strongly disagree with. We literally saw Caruso box out BAM in the finals on that free throw play. Caruso ain’t a pushover and is an elite defending guard in the NBA. Yeah he got pushed a bit by Jimmy Butler but so did everyone else on our team. Dude was killing it against us until AD and Lebron decided “enough was enough” in Game 6.

I do agree on how we are usually a bigger team that taking on a 6’3 guard would be


Yet what guard in this draft is tall enough that also has the lateral quickness to defend guards and point guard instincts on offense? All the point guards in our range are 6’3 or below in height. Unless we want to train someone we think someone like Desmand Bane is THAT guy?

Or if we train up THT as that guy given his 6’4 and ridiculous 7 foot wingspan.


Leandro Bolmaro

Abdoulaye N'Doye not sure he stays at PG and more 2nd round type but he is big.

Vit Krejci could be a draft and stash although probably 2nd round at best.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Quote:
Wasserman: Stanford's Tyrell Terry got people talking by measuring around 6'3" and weighing in at 174 pounds, a notable difference from the 6'2", 160 pounds Stanford lists him as. I've heard Terry linked to the Los Angeles Lakers.


Even at 174 AFTER the strength gain?

Liiiigggghhhtttt

More interested in the possibility he may not be done growing.


You can just tell that Terry is a late bloomer that will continue to fill out, add strength and potentially even grow.

The fact that his body still has room to fill-out is a good sign - it shows that he didn't dominate by being the biggest/strongest player on the court. A lot of draft bust are because they were able to dominate CBB by being more physically mature.

I guess you'd pass on all these players because they were light.

Zach Lavine was 181 pounds when drafted at 6'6".
SGA 180 at 6'6".
De'Andre Fox 170.
Jordan Clarskon was only 186 when drafted.
Schroder 165.


I see the big difference between Terry and the players you listed is athleticism. Maybe he can narrow the gap with training,


I agree that other than SGA, the rest are superior athletes, however, TT might be the best shooter of the bunch.

Bottom line is there are a lot of really good NBA players that were drafted around ~180 pounds.

If TT was slightly bigger, more athletic, he would be a lottery pick and not around at 28.

Given his shooting ability, he has the chance to be way better than his draft position, especially if he does grow 2-3 more inches. He is exactly the type of player the Laker should be drafting - swinging for the fence instead of the safe pick.


Coming out of college he is the best shooter of them all. The weight doesn't bother me.

For this draft I was of the mind they should draft someone ready to play this next season like a Riller or Tillman type.

Buy a late 2nd and swing for the fence on players like Vit Krejci or Karim Mane. Both intriguing in their own ways.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:32 am    Post subject:

I’d like to get in on Josh Hall with a second. He’s HsSr, but 5th year. He’s old for a high school kid and may not be able to add weight similar to BI. The kid has a pretty good handle and is a good shooter. Doesn’t seem too selfish. Haven’t gotten to watch much actual footage outside of highlights so I can’t really comment on his defense, but with Handy at helm, I could see them having a do BI type do over and allow the kid to develop the way a lot of posters here (myself not included) wanted from the Brandon in 16.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:02 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:


Coming out of college he is the best shooter of them all. The weight doesn't bother me.

For this draft I was of the mind they should draft someone ready to play this next season like a Riller or Tillman type.

Buy a late 2nd and swing for the fence on players like Vit Krejci or Karim Mane. Both intriguing in their own ways.


Championship contending teams should never be drafting players to play next year or that fill a need. Even the most ready to play rookie will never see the court and you can always find a vet min to fill the role.

Every pick should be BPA with highest upside. If you hit that pick, you extend your championship window. It’s the Spurs way.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
How much difference is there between Terry and Anfernee Simons?


I find Simons to be far more of an Iso shot creator. Simons is like the young version between Seth Curry and CJ McCollum.

Unfortunately he hasn't figured out the rest of the floor yet, just his own shot. Legit athlete with size at his position.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I do agree on how we are usually a bigger team that taking on a 6’3 guard would be strange for us.


It's not about the height. It's the weight/muscle. I find that the currently league tends to favor this more than height. Post base > standing reach > wingspan.

Quote:
Zach Lavine was 181 pounds when drafted at 6'6".
SGA 180 at 6'6".
De'Andre Fox 170.
Jordan Clarskon was only 186 when drafted.
Schroder 165.


And as I mentioned, all these guys had other physical tools to compensate.

LaVine? Borderline top tier run/jump athlete.
SGA? 7' wingspan, flexibility, footwork
De'Aaron Fox Elite quickness/speed/physical play by weight
Jordan Clarkson quickness, 6'8" wingspan
Dennis Schroeder, quick, good speed, 6'8" wingspan

If it's just off ball shooting and defense you're looking for, along with FTr, just get Immanuel Quickley already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC_jBNFQh6o

6'3" w/o shoes, 6'8" WS, 180.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject:

Quote:


Yet what guard in this draft is tall enough that also has the lateral quickness to defend guards and point guard instincts on offense? All the point guards in our range are 6’3 or below in height. Unless we want to train someone we think someone like Desmand Bane is THAT guy?

Or if we train up THT as that guy given his 6’4 and ridiculous 7 foot wingspan.


Leandro Bolmaro at 6'7" but he can't shoot.

Immanuel Quickley. Didn't get to flash PG instincts at Kentucky, but played as an offball wing next to lottery player Tyrese Maxey (Klutch) and Ashton Hagans. 47% FTr. 92%FT. 43% 3pt.

But for an off-ball player, he did flash tertiary playmaking.

Devon Dotson is listed at 6'2" 180. Doesn't have the length, but does move his feet, is strong for his position, and flashes PnR ability with improving jumper. GREAT FTr at 44% SO year and 48% FR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JITU5lb1-s

Quote:
Given his shooting ability, he has the chance to be way better than his draft position, especially if he does grow 2-3 more inches. He is exactly the type of player the Laker should be drafting - swinging for the fence instead of the safe pick.


I don't see how this is a "swinging for the fence" pick. I especially don't like the assumption of "if he grows another 2" to 3", because we simply don't know. We could just make that assumption about general guards of relative age/NCAA experience too.

If that's the case then Quickley is going to be a 6'6" PG? Awesome.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject:

Some stats per hoop math:

Malachi Flynn:
21.1% shots at the rim
68.2% FG at the rim
15.2% assisted at the rim
33.6%FTr

Tyrell Terry
28.8% shots at the rim
60.4% FG at the rim
24.1% assisted at the rim
33%FTr

Immanuel Quickley
15.1% shots at the rim
48% FG at the rim
12.5% assisted at the rim
47.1% FTr


Devon Dotson
50.4% shots at the rim
64.8% FG at the rim
18.4% assisted at the rim
44% FTr


Cassius Winston
25.7% shots at the rim
51.9% FG at the rim
16.4% assisted at the rim
32.7% FTr

Tre Jones
29.5% shots at the rim
54% FG at the rim
18% assisted at the rim
36.6% FTr
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:35 pm    Post subject:

Here is what I’m hearing from the league at large: LaMelo Ball is not performing very well at job interviews. I’ve heard that from multiple sources. He is not improving his perception via job interview. There are people drafting later in the top ten who were not preparing for the possibility of Ball still being around. And I’m not saying that he will not be a top-three pick. I am saying that I know for a fact that there are teams later in the top ten who are doing more research on him, because they no longer think it’s a given he will.

https://sports.yahoo.com/rumor-lamelo-ball-struggling-interviews-200019733.html

I wonder what he's saying wrong
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:37 pm    Post subject:

drae wrote:
Here is what I’m hearing from the league at large: LaMelo Ball is not performing very well at job interviews. I’ve heard that from multiple sources. He is not improving his perception via job interview. There are people drafting later in the top ten who were not preparing for the possibility of Ball still being around. And I’m not saying that he will not be a top-three pick. I am saying that I know for a fact that there are teams later in the top ten who are doing more research on him, because they no longer think it’s a given he will.

https://sports.yahoo.com/rumor-lamelo-ball-struggling-interviews-200019733.html

I wonder what he's saying wrong


Read the same thing yesterday.

Personally, I wouldn't look too much into it. Just a gut feeling though.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:


Coming out of college he is the best shooter of them all. The weight doesn't bother me.

For this draft I was of the mind they should draft someone ready to play this next season like a Riller or Tillman type.

Buy a late 2nd and swing for the fence on players like Vit Krejci or Karim Mane. Both intriguing in their own ways.


Championship contending teams should never be drafting players to play next year or that fill a need. Even the most ready to play rookie will never see the court and you can always find a vet min to fill the role.

Every pick should be BPA with highest upside. If you hit that pick, you extend your championship window. It’s the Spurs way.


How do you define BPA and highest upside?. There are many factors involved when evaluating a prospect for your team and how do you conclude if another player is BPA over a Riller or Tillman? Do I rate defense over offense? ISO ability vs passing/shooting?

I do believe rookies can contribute to a contending team. Some here are expecting THT to be a rotation player next year but Riller or Tillman in my view have a more mature game and better skillset at this time to contribute next season. Look at the Heat.

The Spurs did draft Kyle Anderson and Derrick White in the 1st and basically their upside was what it was coming out of college. Last year does Luka Samanic have a higher upside and BPA over Kevin Porter Jr or Brandon Clarke?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Spurs run a different philosophy of what BPA is. I think they more intentionally draft international players because international players are more used to adapting to a certain system and succeeding within it, rather than drafting the most talented or most athletic or combination of both, etc.

Best Player Available doesn't necessarily mean highest upside either.

I do have a philosophy when it comes to BPA, especially when it's BPA vs. fit, because the "fit" drafted Laker players from 2000 to 2010 didn't really stick in the league that long, and their riskiest pick in Bynum, was by far the most successful player, despite his shortened career.
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