LAKERS -at- SUNS - 12/16 - Thoughts and :-)) Ratings

 
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:52 pm    Post subject: LAKERS -at- SUNS - 12/16 - Thoughts and :-)) Ratings

Preseason Warm Ups... There are very few bad places Vogel can go with his lineups and rotations this season. You could probably make the strong case for a couple dozen combos of starters. The foundation, however, starts with LeBron and AD, and that foundation needs minutes to build chemistry with the new players.

Tonight, they were in the mix and gave us maybe a brief snapshot of how some of these lineups may look. But with all the rust, new players and general apathy for a preseason game, it was difficult to draw any worthwhile conclusions that aren’t extremely premature.

The Lakers played the starters in the first half (no KCP or Caruso). LeBron wasn’t attacking much. Schröder was just kind of watching things unfold. Gasol didn’t have the ball in his hands with frequency. They fell back 20-7 early.

Once they started going to the bench, bringing in Harrell, Matthews and THT, the energy changed. From there, the starters would show somewhat of a pulse as the team went on a 25-7 run.

The Lakers sat their stars for the second half while the Suns maintained their squad. With Gasol, Morris, Kuzma, Matthews and Schröder, they struggled to find any kind of rhythm and purpose. They were outscored by 23 points in the third to trail by 14.

Behind Kuzma and THT, the Lakers bench rallied in the fourth against the Suns reserves. They were scoring at will, dropping 43 points to pull out the 112-107 victory.


LeBron -- -- This was more of a glimpse of LeBron’s future old man game. A lot of post fades and not as much imposing his will with the drive to finish strong. You knew it was going to be a little of a coast job just to get rid of some rust and get the lungs and chemistry working a little. In the Bubble stretch before the playoffs, he had moments of coasting and moments of domination. I’m curious to see what we get to start the season. Last year, as LeBron went with the energy, so did the team. The bench kind of picked up the effort, energy of the team tonight and we got going off of that. That Gasol chemistry looked rough to start, then picked up later. LeBron drew the D and found Gasol for a three on one play and LeBron got downhill off a Gasol screen on another. That floor spacing should open up some lanes for LeBron or Gasol some open looks as they get more familiar with each other. The Stats: He scored 11 points on 4-10 shooting (0-2 from three, 3-5 from the line) to go with 2 boards, 2 assists, 1 steal, 3 turnovers and 1 foul in 15 minutes. He was a +2.

Davis -- -- He cleans up so much defensively. Watch how much ground he covers and how the advantage the opposing offense had is suddenly erased. That happened quite a bit in his first half once we got going. Playing with Gasol, you probably need guys who can fly around the court because of his lack of mobility. Playing across Gasol, AD will get that smaller PF-type of defender. But a difference from last year, is he will have more room to work and won’t be as pushed out of the paint as he was with McGee starting across him to start games. Of course, we’re also going to see a lot of minutes across Trezz. I want those two to dominate on the glass and get up and down the court with speed. Trezz will likely be more of a garbage man in those situations. Then when AD sits, he’ll be featured a bit more. Defensively, they’ll cover a lot of ground and should be pretty good. Just one half of ball from AD tonight. He scored on a jumper and a couple of dunks set up by teammates as well as getting to the line. He said he felt physically fine out there and will probably get more minutes on Friday. The Stats: He scored 10 points on 3-4 shooting (4-6 from three line) to go with 4 boards, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover and 2 fouls in 18 minutes. He was a +5.

Kuzma -- -- “I just worked hard during the short offseason and I’m just a little ahead of the curve,” he said. He started the preseason with a few bad minutes where he was put in situations to create or take shots we don’t want from him. Then he found his comfort zone. He started moving the ball. He started making quick decisions (shoot, pass, drive) and he was back to his wheelhouse after that and has looked good. This game had the kind of feel you get from a vet who knows what his game is. For him that’s catch-and-shoot opportunities, cuts off ball to be a finisher, hustling in transition, and crashing the offensive glass. Now we throw in more of him making the extra pass to turn good shots into great ones and that’s the offensive player we want. Tonight, you saw a bit of all that as he sank 4-8 from three (we even called his number out of a timeout to set up a three on the move to his left...Vogel wanted Kuzma to work on shooting off the move in the offseason and set this one up for him). Kuz played with better energy than a lot of others. You saw that early and then to start the fourth to help ignite the Laker bench comeback. He imposed his energy on the game and the bench picked it up. During that stretch, he sank threes, hit a runner and made that extra swing pass to Wes for a three. “He’s really not forcing any action. He’s getting his shots within the rhythm of the offense,” Vogel said. The last two games have been consistent, strong ball. Defensively, with KCP and Caruso sitting, we slid Kuzma into the starting lineup at the SG to use his length on Booker. When it comes down to it, I think we’ll see Matthews there, but who knows? (Certainly, at the end of the first half that’s what happened at the SG.) But Kuz played it well on the defensive end. He had moments of disruption. The breakdowns were usually team-oriented versus anything individual. He led the team in scoring in that first half with 12 points and finished with a team-high 23. The Stats: He scored 23 points on 8-15 shooting (4-8 from three, 3-3 from the line) to go with 3 boards, 2 assists, 1 turnover and 1 foul in 32 minutes. He was a -5.

Schröder -- -- Defensively, some solid moments against CP3 at the point of attack tonight. CP3 was 1-6, probably should have made a couple of those misses, but Schröder was scrapping on D. He said his goal is to try to be aggressive with the help he has behind him. Good signs there. You can still see a lot of chemistry issues where he doesn’t want to switch and guys do it anyway. They’ll iron that all out. Offensively, he really has no idea where his spots are or what his role is with the stars. Again, this is why they need to play together. You started to see Gasol/Schröder teaming up on backdoor cuts for points. That was one of the few things you could see developing. I don’t recall anything specific yet with either AD or LBJ. “Try to get a feel for each other on the offensive end,” he said, mentioning it was preseason. “We’re going to get better at it.” Schröder should have been to the line more than he got there. He was clearly bumped on some finishes and they didn’t give him the foul on the pull-up three where you try to get a defender running up your back where he drew contact. Welcome to L.A., I guess. He had a little bit of an ankle twist in the third quarter that had him hobbling slightly. “Nothing to worry about,” he said afterward, but we did pull him so the staff could work on it. The Stats: He scored 7 points on 3-6 shooting (1-4 from the line) to go with 4 boards, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 turnover and 1 foul in 24 minutes. He was a -9.

Gasol -- -- That starting unit was a bit clunky to start but they need reps to find their game. We started to see a little bit of chemistry with Schröder and a couple plays with LeBron, but they were nowhere near anything comfortable yet. When LeBron and AD sat, we run him in that horns post spot to look for cutters coming off the corner pindowns. I’m still a bit surprised at how easily he chewed apart the Clippers (not a good sign for the Clips to start this preseason). The Suns had some better coverages on our cutters, so Gasol wasn’t quite as effective with the pass. We also didn’t have KCP out there flying around. Offensively, he made a three for his only points and choked some easy chippies that we will chalk up to preseason ugliness. He had the team-low -16 in his 21 minutes. There’s no way I don’t accidentally write “Pau” instead of “Marc” sometime this year. The Stats: He scored 3 points on 1-5 shooting (1-2 from three) to go with 8 boards, 2 assists, 3 turnovers and 3 fouls in 21 minutes. He was a -16.

Horton-Tucker -- -- Interesting game. If you were wondering what his game might look like when his shot wasn’t falling, that was the case early on tonight and I think it told you a lot. He still ended up with 18 points on 7-11 shooting in 24 minutes. That may be the cue to how we use him in the game. His off-ball effectiveness in question, they may reduce some time with our other playmakers and give him some run with the ball when they sit. But who knows? We did that tonight and he helped orchestrate the late-game comeback. He’s got too much in his handle to not find a way to get to the rim with some regularity. What you like about this game and what should make you really optimistic is how well he was able to play despite that missing perimeter scoring. There was a stretch where we just put the ball in his hands and he was the tip of the spear. Good things usually happened. He came in with 3 minutes left in the first quarter, Lakers down 10. In that stint, he’d score an And-1 layup in transition and flip in another layup over the helping big on a drive. If you are wondering why THT has so many of these flip-in layups over his head, it’s because he’s extremely right-hand dominant on finishes. A fair amount of finishes he probably should be finishing with his left. It’s one of the many things in his game which reminds me of Manu. Manu would do the same thing on the opposite side of the rim (since he was a lefty). He’d have those same kind of scores. Both also twist their bodies a lot on the finishes. Throw in that herky-jerky dribble, some of those stop-on-a-dime plays to let defenders pass by, and you have some shades of Manu’s game that made him unique. Really, if THT incorporated more ball fakes that’s all he’s missing. In the second half, once he came in and we put the ball in his hands, the team started humming again. The dagger play might have been a pass rather than a score. He worked the two-man game and put a sweet bounce pass off the dribble to Cacok on the roll for the finish. Defensively, some really nice moments where you can really trust him more than you would a 20-year-old. He had a nice block on his man early on and a steal (just one steal tonight). He broke up a lob with a great read. The Stats: He scored 18 points on 7-11 shooting (0-2 from three, 4-4 from the line) to go with 5 boards, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 3 turnovers and 1 foul in 24 minutes. He was a +12.

Harrell -- -- He had the team-high +13. I think you can see the value he will bring in the regular season when our stars are looking a little tired and sluggish. We were down 20-7 when he came in the game for Gasol with 6 minutes left in the first quarter. First play and he helped the team force a turnover and get into the break. He also pounced on a loose ball to ignite a break (he gets to those quickly...with guys like AC in the mix, we’re going to win a lot of 50-50 balls). He also had a shot rejection behind Kuz. By the end of that quarter we had cut the lead from 13 to just 4. Can’t wait to see this team when they are clicking. Offensively, he’s taken a few jumpers this preseason. I’m not sure that holds up with consistency once the regular season starts, but against bigger guys like Ayton you might see a little of it. He had some nice chemistry with Cook again, finishing a lob. He’s probably his deadliest when he’s got an undersized defender in the post. He muscled in an easy layup later in that game in that situation. The Stats: He scored 11 points on 5-8 shooting (1-2 from the line) to go with 6 boards (2 offensive), 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover and 3 fouls in 22 minutes. He was a +13.

Morris -- -- He sank one three tonight for his only points. Some moments defensively forcing a man into a travel and getting a good challenge in on a drive on a mismatch. I’d like to see some units where it’s just last year’s squad out there to see if we can have some stretches of putting the clamps on. Maybe something like AD, Morris, LeBron, KCP and Caruso. It wouldn’t surprise me if they leaned into that early in the season to close. The Stats: He scored 3 points on 1-6 shooting (1-3 from three) to go with 4 boards, 1 turnover and 2 fouls in 16 minutes. He was a -15.

Matthews -- -- He started on the bench before getting moved to the starting lineup in the second half in place of LeBron. That was certainly a downgrade and the Lakers floundered, but not his fault. Offensively, he missed a bunch of easy ones around the rim. He was able to get to the line for some FTs as well as knock down a corner three on that quick release in the fourth during a run. His combination of quick release and range to go with his defensive chops is going to fit well with our stars, particularly in closing time. We were down 9 when he came in in that first half and he started chasing Booker around. The Stats: He scored 7 points on 1-7 shooting (1-3 from three, 4-4 from the line) to go with 4 boards, 1 assist and 4 fouls in 23 minutes. He was a +6.

Cook -- -- With KCP and AC both sitting, Cook got some more run. He’s just eating up preseason minutes while we wait until the games count. Hey, at least he seems to be developing a little bit of chemistry with Harrell on those two-man possessions. That looked good again tonight. Not just setting up Trezz, but Cook was also getting his shot off for a series of scores. Those played a role in that bench comeback in the second half. He’s been a rather optimistic finisher in the paint this preseason and that has usually resulted in his shot getting packed badly. The Stats: He scored 10 points on 3-6 shooting (2-3 from three, 2-2 from the line) to go with 4 boards, 4 assists and no fouls in 20 minutes. He was a +5.

Dudley -- -- “He’s the best on our team for sure celebrating that three ball,” Vogel said. He sank his three on a play that originated on dribble penetration by THT. That was his only hoop. Defensively, he’s surprisingly disruptive still. Bigs in the paint have trouble scoring on him at times when he gets caught on a mismatch. Perimeter players try probing and attempting to break him off the dribble and he’s been staying on them. A +11 in his 16 minutes tonight. Bench was getting it done. The Stats: He scored 3 points on 1-2 shooting from three to go with 2 boards, 1 assist and 3 fouls in 16 minutes. He was a +11.

Cacok -- -- He and Kostas came in with 5 minutes left to hold on to the win after we even things up. The Lakers outscored the Suns 43-24 in that quarter. Cacok had a couple finishes at the rim. One was a nice lob from Cook who stretched the D out to the right corner before throwing it. The other was a great feed from THT on the move for the easy one. The Stats: He scored 4 points on 2-2 shooting in 5 minutes. He was a +8.

Antetokounmpo -- -- He came in for Trezz/Kuzma with 5 minutes left, Lakers down 3. He hit a couple of clutch FTs after getting fouled on a drive. The Stats: He scored 2 points on 2-2 shooting from the line to go with 1 board, 1 assist and 2 fouls in 5 minutes. He was a +8.

Vogel -- -- Key Moment: Let’s go with the start of the fourth. The Lakers played an awful third. They were lost, sluggish and had no purpose. To start the fourth, he leaned on Kuzma’s energy to change the momentum. Then went to THT on the ball to get the Suns reserves on their heels. There was also a 25-7 Laker run in the first half with the starters, but we had squandered that in the third. Vogel on that first half run with his starters and Matthews: “I thought I saw a glimpse of the IQ of that group defensively really talking out coverages, really rotating and being all over the place.”

Key Substitution: Well, THT is looking like a super sub right now. I’m curious with the emergence of Talen with the ball in his hands as a weapon how that impacts how and when we play Schroder. Do we give the ball to Talen to run the show some or lean on the vet when LeBron sits?

Key Stat: Lakers held the Suns to 13-42 shooting from three (31%) while shooting 10-25 (40%) themselves.


Last edited by DancingBarry on Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:03 pm    Post subject:

Very nice. Well done. As is always the case, there are some exceptional observations and insights about the game that can be found no where else.

Last edited by Annihilator on Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:49 pm    Post subject:

I can see the Manu in THT game. Like the righty version
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:52 pm    Post subject:

DB,

Nice write up as usual. I had the game on but didn't get a chance to watch it yet. I did see the Lakers come out unfamiliar with each other but I guess it warmed up afterwards. The Lakers shouldn't be in any hurry this year. The bench is deep enough to have anyone produce when their number is called.

It is good to see that Kuz is balling and hopefully he can keep it up. Cook is now hitting some shots. Amazing what competition will do to motivate some people!

This Laker team can run so many different lineups. The season should be fun this year. Good times for all.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:24 am    Post subject:

Thanks, DB.

Lakers starting unit of Gasol-AD-Kuz-Schroder-Bron was not effective. As DB mentioned, Bron played his old man game, and AD was taking his time on post ups/isolations, not really effective team basketball. Eventually Gasol/Schroder will figure out how to play around AD/Bron. You will see more trust in Gasol up high, some better big to big passing and Schroder being more assertive. Dennis seemed to be playing more of a D-Fish role than a PG. The concern I had with this lineup was defense. It seemed the athleticism of the Suns gave Marc quite a bit of trouble. Lakers were not defensively locked in. Hard to judge any of this though, until we see more from AD/Bron. We need them be back in form. This was clearly a game where they looked like they had just played basketball after 2 months.

Outside of that, some things I noticed:

Trez: Great energy on offense continues especially around the rim, but his defense off the ball in recovery is very very noticeable. You see him make defensive plays in recovery that are going to be valuable. The way Trez moves his feet, man, I just can not wait until AD is ready, because AD being in game shape means you see AD/Trez lineups. They had a little run yesterday and defensively they looked great.

Vogel will have to switch often between AD/Trez and AD/Gasol. Last night, for sure the better match up was AD/Trez. If this were a RS game, you can not give Gasol too many minutes, as it seemed he was overmatched by the Suns athleticism. These sort of games, we will probably miss having a Dwight or McGee to match up with an Ayton/athletic big. AD is going to have to play the 5 in match ups like these.

Kuz: Played and continues to be rock solid this preseason. He has been playing how we want him, a lot of energy off the ball, quick passes when he has the ball or a quick decision. Defensively he has been trying very hard. You can tell how hard he is playing when 4 minutes into the game, Bron/AD have not broken a sweat and Kuz is drenched in sweat. That is a great sign. I wanted to hang on to Kuz and give him a chance this year because I think guys like him and THT are key to keep winning rings on a 2 superstar 2 maxed out salary roster. When you get impact from guys like this, it is like getting a fringe all-star for 1/20th the price.

THT: As DB said, this was the game that we wanted to see. The game where his shooting is off, and how he plays. At first, it looked like he was forcing. Quite sure when he plays with other stars, it will be hard for him to get the ball as much as he likes. He will need to work on his off the ball game. But damn, man. Those handles and length. It is so obvious now that he is a mismatch. So far 2 different NBA teams have not been able to put a guy on him that can match up with his combination of long arms, athleticism, strength and handles. He makes some good plays for teammates, I really like how he naturally likes to draw defenses in. This was not expected, but those that wanted a DRose or type of aggressive ball penetration threat, it seems we have that kind of player in THT.

Quinn: I have to give Quinn some major props for how he is playing so far in preseason. He has shown chemistry with Trez, and THT. He has come in and played such a smart veteran backup role so far, making a ton of good decisions. Interesting to see with Rondo gone, and him being experienced if Frank leans on him more. Quinn was discussed as a Klutch move, yet, so far, I have seen a guy that will be very valuable in that he knows the offense and has good chemistry with teammates.

It is early, but one play we are seeing develop with routine. We often go to the weakside post up when other options are not available in the offense. We do this with whomever is there, and the purpose is to get some penetration and get the defense to collapse. It is interesting because as I said last season, we are one of the few teams in the NBA that still use those kinds of plays. We had AD, Bron, Kuz, Trez, Kieff, Matthews all in those plays. The success rate was not very high, but it gives our team a different dimension than that to other teams. We attack using screens up high as well, we use 5 out offense as well, but we also want to establish that power game in the paint.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:56 am    Post subject:

Thanks DB!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The dagger play might have been a pass rather than a score. He worked the two-man game and put a sweet bounce pass off the dribble to Cacok on the roll for the finish.


Loved that pass, very impressive.

Quote:
There’s no way I don’t accidentally write “Pau” instead of “Marc” sometime this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject:

UNCLE DUDZ WITH THE DAGGER

Thanks, DB!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject:

Thanks DB! I did not enjoy watching the first half of this game; low energy basketball from some key players just going through the motions to get some exercise. LBJ wasn't the only one playing old guy ball, Gasol wore heavy boots of lead, giving opponents little to dread.

I did see some positives from this game:

We won

Harrell is motivated, moves without the ball, uses his head, and fights for possessions, which are some of my favorite qualities in a player

Matthews actually can play defense as advertised

Kuz frustrated me in the first half, but once he got on a roll and ironed out his game and shot selection he made up for it with some very effective ball

THT can wear out defenders, hit or miss. You want an opponent with rubber legs at closing time? Toss some THT at them.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Thanks, DB.

Lakers starting unit of Gasol-AD-Kuz-Schroder-Bron was not effective. As DB mentioned, Bron played his old man game, and AD was taking his time on post ups/isolations, not really effective team basketball. Eventually Gasol/Schroder will figure out how to play around AD/Bron. You will see more trust in Gasol up high, some better big to big passing and Schroder being more assertive. Dennis seemed to be playing more of a D-Fish role than a PG. The concern I had with this lineup was defense. It seemed the athleticism of the Suns gave Marc quite a bit of trouble. Lakers were not defensively locked in. Hard to judge any of this though, until we see more from AD/Bron. We need them be back in form. This was clearly a game where they looked like they had just played basketball after 2 months.

Outside of that, some things I noticed:

Trez: Great energy on offense continues especially around the rim, but his defense off the ball in recovery is very very noticeable. You see him make defensive plays in recovery that are going to be valuable. The way Trez moves his feet, man, I just can not wait until AD is ready, because AD being in game shape means you see AD/Trez lineups. They had a little run yesterday and defensively they looked great.

Vogel will have to switch often between AD/Trez and AD/Gasol. Last night, for sure the better match up was AD/Trez. If this were a RS game, you can not give Gasol too many minutes, as it seemed he was overmatched by the Suns athleticism. These sort of games, we will probably miss having a Dwight or McGee to match up with an Ayton/athletic big. AD is going to have to play the 5 in match ups like these.

Kuz: Played and continues to be rock solid this preseason. He has been playing how we want him, a lot of energy off the ball, quick passes when he has the ball or a quick decision. Defensively he has been trying very hard. You can tell how hard he is playing when 4 minutes into the game, Bron/AD have not broken a sweat and Kuz is drenched in sweat. That is a great sign. I wanted to hang on to Kuz and give him a chance this year because I think guys like him and THT are key to keep winning rings on a 2 superstar 2 maxed out salary roster. When you get impact from guys like this, it is like getting a fringe all-star for 1/20th the price.

THT: As DB said, this was the game that we wanted to see. The game where his shooting is off, and how he plays. At first, it looked like he was forcing. Quite sure when he plays with other stars, it will be hard for him to get the ball as much as he likes. He will need to work on his off the ball game. But damn, man. Those handles and length. It is so obvious now that he is a mismatch. So far 2 different NBA teams have not been able to put a guy on him that can match up with his combination of long arms, athleticism, strength and handles. He makes some good plays for teammates, I really like how he naturally likes to draw defenses in. This was not expected, but those that wanted a DRose or type of aggressive ball penetration threat, it seems we have that kind of player in THT.

Quinn: I have to give Quinn some major props for how he is playing so far in preseason. He has shown chemistry with Trez, and THT. He has come in and played such a smart veteran backup role so far, making a ton of good decisions. Interesting to see with Rondo gone, and him being experienced if Frank leans on him more. Quinn was discussed as a Klutch move, yet, so far, I have seen a guy that will be very valuable in that he knows the offense and has good chemistry with teammates.

It is early, but one play we are seeing develop with routine. We often go to the weakside post up when other options are not available in the offense. We do this with whomever is there, and the purpose is to get some penetration and get the defense to collapse. It is interesting because as I said last season, we are one of the few teams in the NBA that still use those kinds of plays. We had AD, Bron, Kuz, Trez, Kieff, Matthews all in those plays. The success rate was not very high, but it gives our team a different dimension than that to other teams. We attack using screens up high as well, we use 5 out offense as well, but we also want to establish that power game in the paint.


So, I won't make an attempt to speak for the board, but I have to say that each time I finish reading DB's game follow ups, I find myself doing a quick scroll down to read some of the other posts, and inevitably I find myself stopping at your posts.

It's like DB serves us a healthy breakfast (when we win) and you follow with a nice tall a_s glass of orange juice! I appreciate the summaries you LG'ers give. Working from home is a lot more enjoyable when we have access to some rich content.

" There was a stretch where we just put the ball in his hands and he was the tip of the spear."

See, there's that rich ish I'm talking about. Tip of the spear? DB's pulled some Shakespearen ish out on us...


Thanks to you both!
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject:

Interesting and Learning Game

Could TNT be a Vinnie Johnson meets Manu-type player that brings instant energy when those times are needed

Will “Dennis the Menace” be like a version of Nick the Quick?

Seems like Gasol is becoming like a Vlade Divac-type passer with the same devastating efficiency

Great that Kuz is understanding that he has a Richard Hamilton/Ray Allen-type game

Looking forward to seeing Trez display the limitless motor in his game that have similarities to players like Rodman/Tony Allen on offense and Matthews displaying the same tenacity on D

Our Energy/Full Court/Death Squad when we want to blitz teams while Lebron, AD and Gasol are resting
TNT
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:56 am    Post subject:

who you like for our 3rd option DB? Schroeder, Kuz, KCP, Montrezl, THT, committee again?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:26 pm    Post subject:

dcastillo wrote:
I can see the Manu in THT game. Like the righty version


There's a few more comparisons to it besides the similarities in how they finish, handle, strong-hand dominance, etc. ... both have step backs, floaters, a little bit of wildness that needs to be reeled in, both two-way players, three range, both can hammer on you, both a little crafty with the passes, both can run the offense but not to the point that you feel like you don't still need a PG. I've seen THT do that tuck of the ball Manu would do every once in a while. And THT also looks like he's losing hair in the same spot:

On the other side, THT has that ridiculous wingspan and hand size that is unique. There are places he can go with that, where it's just not in the cards for others. And, as I mentioned, Manu had a ball-fake game to move/manipulate defenders that THT doesn't yet (but I think will likely add in due time).

I think it's pretty clear that the ceiling for THT will be with his shot and decision making. That was pretty much the case with Manu. He'd drive Pop crazy early in his career with decision making, and his three shooting improved his first 6 years in the league. Manu didn't come to the league until he was 25, so if THT isn't to that level yet as far as steady impact, that's fine. But I think the potential for that same kind of player/fit/impact on a team is there.

Teams will start to scout THT. If the shot isn't falling, they will try to take away the drive. Shot wasn't falling this game and he was still effective. They tried to send a little extra help and he made the passes. Good signs. Really encouraging game. If he can hit the shot consistently, it's trouble.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
dcastillo wrote:
I can see the Manu in THT game. Like the righty version


There's a few more comparisons to it besides the similarities in how they finish, handle, strong-hand dominance, etc. ... both have step backs, floaters, a little bit of wildness that needs to be reeled in, both two-way players, three range, both can hammer on you, both a little crafty with the passes, both can run the offense but not to the point that you feel like you don't still need a PG. I've seen THT do that tuck of the ball Manu would do every once in a while. And THT also looks like he's losing hair in the same spot:

On the other side, THT has that ridiculous wingspan and hand size that is unique. There are places he can go with that, where it's just not in the cards for others. And, as I mentioned, Manu had a ball-fake game to move/manipulate defenders that THT doesn't yet (but I think will likely add in due time).

I think it's pretty clear that the ceiling for THT will be with his shot and decision making. That was pretty much the case with Manu. He'd drive Pop crazy early in his career with decision making, and his three shooting improved his first 6 years in the league. Manu didn't come to the league until he was 25, so if THT isn't to that level yet as far as steady impact, that's fine. But I think the potential for that same kind of player/fit/impact on a team is there.

Teams will start to scout THT. If the shot isn't falling, they will try to take away the drive. Shot wasn't falling this game and he was still effective. They tried to send a little extra help and he made the passes. Good signs. Really encouraging game. If he can hit the shot consistently, it's trouble.


Being an older guy, I feel a better comparison is Mark Aguirre. Similar body type and able to get to the hoop and score without being a leaper / dunker.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:55 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
who you like for our 3rd option DB? Schroeder, Kuz, KCP, Montrezl, THT, committee again?


Man, good question. Probably a long answer here.

THT is showing the skills needed for that role. He can iso and good things seem to happen. The team has clicked when we've leaned on him to shoulder the load. But can we trust a 20-year-old? Will Vogel? Seems doubtful, but I understand Vogel cursing in the Bubble about likely having to start him this season because of how well he's playing. He's the guys with the skills for it.

On the other hand, you've got Trezz because you can plug his offensive game into anything early on this season without having to scheme. You can throw it to him the post, no complex offensive scheming needed. You can work the two-man game, everyone knows how to run that. So it's just very simple to integrate him. He'll also feast on the boards with hustle. So I think he's numbers will be good.

Then you look at Kuz coming out the gates hot. Can he do it with LeBron/AD consistently? That's the challenge. He struggled with that last year. A couple months off? I'm a little skeptical. But he's looked strong. He also has the advantage of being comfortable with existing teammates and his role.

Schroder I think just needs a little time to pick his spots and for us to work him into the offensive. Of all the guys above, he has probably the hardest job in order to get to that third option because of his position and skills. He's also competing with THT now as far as putting the ball in their hands.

Who was our third guy last year? KCP? Haven't even talked about him.

Ultimately, the guy who has looked the worst right now, Schroder, will probably get there. He dropped 30 in the playoffs last year. He was the No. 2 in OKC. He's the only one who has really shown the chops to date to be that guy. He's a vet Vogel can trust. Two or three months from now, we probably have the sets and plays down for him to take advantage. He can also play off the stars. I'm guessing it will be him we think of as that No. 3. For the first several weeks, it's probably Trezz. Sixth man of the year. Schroder the runner up. Feels like a safe bet those two share the role during different portions of the season.

If we're lucky, it's THT. That's potential for a whole different level.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:18 pm    Post subject:

Laker7 wrote:


Being an older guy, I feel a better comparison is Mark Aguirre. Similar body type and able to get to the hoop and score without being a leaper / dunker.


I see the body type, but Aguirre's got that old man game. The post up, turn and shoot over you. The slow midrange on the face up. THT is a wild horse with electric handle. A guy gets downhill and is playing at two or three times the speed of that and much craftier on the dribble. Aguirre was the methodical, slow down game, hit the jumper on you guy. I remember back in the Showtime days we were close to getting him via trade. He and Magic were buddies.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:24 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:


Could TNT be a Vinnie Johnson meets Manu-type player that brings instant energy when those times are needed



I think that's the role he will fall into. Possible game changer off the bench type of player.

Quote:

Looking forward to seeing Trez display the limitless motor in his game that have similarities to players like Rodman/Tony Allen on offense and Matthews displaying the same tenacity on D



Really curious to see how Monstatrezz fits in on D. He's versatile enough that I can see the team really playing on a string with him an AD out there once they get on the same page. Those guys can cover a lot of ground and have that limitless motor on D.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:


Quinn: I have to give Quinn some major props for how he is playing so far in preseason. He has shown chemistry with Trez, and THT. He has come in and played such a smart veteran backup role so far, making a ton of good decisions. Interesting to see with Rondo gone, and him being experienced if Frank leans on him more. Quinn was discussed as a Klutch move, yet, so far, I have seen a guy that will be very valuable in that he knows the offense and has good chemistry with teammates.


His offense off the two-man game has been really productive. The D drives me a little crazy. Feels like ankle weights on the team. But, yes, props to him for keeping the game simple and effective on the offensive end.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:37 am    Post subject:

Laker7 wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
dcastillo wrote:
I can see the Manu in THT game. Like the righty version
There's a few more comparisons to it besides the similarities in how they finish, handle, strong-hand dominance, etc. ... both have step backs, floaters, a little bit of wildness that needs to be reeled in, both two-way players, three range, both can hammer on you, both a little crafty with the passes, both can run the offense but not to the point that you feel like you don't still need a PG. I've seen THT do that tuck of the ball Manu would do every once in a while. And THT also looks like he's losing hair in the same spot:

On the other side, THT has that ridiculous wingspan and hand size that is unique. There are places he can go with that, where it's just not in the cards for others. And, as I mentioned, Manu had a ball-fake game to move/manipulate defenders that THT doesn't yet (but I think will likely add in due time).

I think it's pretty clear that the ceiling for THT will be with his shot and decision making. That was pretty much the case with Manu. He'd drive Pop crazy early in his career with decision making, and his three shooting improved his first 6 years in the league. Manu didn't come to the league until he was 25, so if THT isn't to that level yet as far as steady impact, that's fine. But I think the potential for that same kind of player/fit/impact on a team is there.

Teams will start to scout THT. If the shot isn't falling, they will try to take away the drive. Shot wasn't falling this game and he was still effective. They tried to send a little extra help and he made the passes. Good signs. Really encouraging game. If he can hit the shot consistently, it's trouble.
Being an older guy, I feel a better comparison is Mark Aguirre. Similar body type and able to get to the hoop and score without being a leaper / dunker.
Maybe TNT will be like Vinnie Johnson or Hondo (in the near future)
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:39 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Quinn: I have to give Quinn some major props for how he is playing so far in preseason. He has shown chemistry with Trez, and THT. He has come in and played such a smart veteran backup role so far, making a ton of good decisions. Interesting to see with Rondo gone, and him being experienced if Frank leans on him more. Quinn was discussed as a Klutch move, yet, so far, I have seen a guy that will be very valuable in that he knows the offense and has good chemistry with teammates.
His offense off the two-man game has been really productive. The D drives me a little crazy. Feels like ankle weights on the team. But, yes, props to him for keeping the game simple and effective on the offensive end.
Sadly, if he is not productive on offense - he shouldn't be on the court. Hard to have one's shooting touch be consisent with inconsistent PT
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:42 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Could TNT be a Vinnie Johnson meets Manu-type player that brings instant energy when those times are needed
I think that's the role he will fall into. Possible game changer off the bench type of player.
Quote:
Looking forward to seeing Trez display the limitless motor in his game that have similarities to players like Rodman/Tony Allen on offense and Matthews displaying the same tenacity on D
Really curious to see how Monstatrezz fits in on D. He's versatile enough that I can see the team really playing on a string with him an AD out there once they get on the same page. Those guys can cover a lot of ground and have that limitless motor on D.
It has been said that the most important thing in playing good D is effort and Trez has that down. Given his current skillset, many are guessing that playing with AD will cover his defensive weaknesses.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:43 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Laker7 wrote:
Being an older guy, I feel a better comparison is Mark Aguirre. Similar body type and able to get to the hoop and score without being a leaper / dunker.
I see the body type, but Aguirre's got that old man game. The post up, turn and shoot over you. The slow midrange on the face up. THT is a wild horse with electric handle. A guy gets downhill and is playing at two or three times the speed of that and much craftier on the dribble. Aguirre was the methodical, slow down game, hit the jumper on you guy. I remember back in the Showtime days we were close to getting him via trade. He and Magic were buddies.
Can one say "Adrian Dantley?"
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Laker7 wrote:


Being an older guy, I feel a better comparison is Mark Aguirre. Similar body type and able to get to the hoop and score without being a leaper / dunker.


I see the body type, but Aguirre's got that old man game. The post up, turn and shoot over you. The slow midrange on the face up. THT is a wild horse with electric handle. A guy gets downhill and is playing at two or three times the speed of that and much craftier on the dribble. Aguirre was the methodical, slow down game, hit the jumper on you guy. I remember back in the Showtime days we were close to getting him via trade. He and Magic were buddies.


Aguirre did have that old man game, and was truly effective at it, but come on DB what Aguirre had, what Barkley had, and what THT doesn't have, is their big round back parts that they used very effectively to ward off intruders.
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