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LakersMD
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Josh Giddey: "Great passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - maybe top 20"
Scottie Barnes: "Good passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - #6 with a bullet!" |
Defense? |
What about it? Trae Young is a game away from the ECF. |
Fair enough. That’s certainly a unique approach to player evaluation. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Josh Giddey: "Great passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - maybe top 20"
Scottie Barnes: "Good passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - #6 with a bullet!" |
Defense? |
What about it? Trae Young is a game away from the ECF. |
Fair enough. That’s certainly a unique approach to player evaluation. |
Not that Giddey and Trae are the same tier of talent though.
Capela is incredible, along with the billion wings the Hawks have.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Josh Giddey: "Great passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - maybe top 20"
Scottie Barnes: "Good passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - #6 with a bullet!" |
Defense? |
What about it? Trae Young is a game away from the ECF. |
Fair enough. That’s certainly a unique approach to player evaluation. |
Would've gotten you Trae Young over Ayton and Bagley.
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I feel Usman Garuba is being under estimated here. Initially after just watching videos I was not very high on him but he is the one international I have watched multiple games playing against high level opponents (e.g. Barcelona) and I have come to appreciate just how good he is.
He essentially played this past year for one of the better international teams as the equivalent of a US high school senior. Watched him guard Nikola Mirotic to Nick Calathes in the same game and do a credible job.
He defers a lot on offense and it is obvious no plays are run for him. However he started to shoot and make more spot up 3's as the season went along and his shot did not appear as flat as being stated here. I believe this part of his game will continue to develop although he may be limited as a creator due to lack of ball skills.
I have him going lottery and he would look real nice in Houston next to C. Woods or Poku in OKC. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: |
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He defers a lot on offense and it is obvious no plays are run for him. However he started to shoot and make more spot up 3's as the season went along and his shot did not appear as flat as being stated here. I believe this part of his game will continue to develop although he may be limited as a creator due to lack of ball skills. |
'
One way player that needs to learn offense from scratch.
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Speaking of flat shots that is my issue with Corey Kispert. |
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
He defers a lot on offense and it is obvious no plays are run for him. However he started to shoot and make more spot up 3's as the season went along and his shot did not appear as flat as being stated here. I believe this part of his game will continue to develop although he may be limited as a creator due to lack of ball skills. |
'
One way player that needs to learn offense from scratch. |
Understand but just turned 19. He can slash and be used as a lob threat. Has good hands and can muscle inside despite age. Real Madrid just never attempted to utilize him at that end of the court. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: |
He defers a lot on offense and it is obvious no plays are run for him. However he started to shoot and make more spot up 3's as the season went along and his shot did not appear as flat as being stated here. I believe this part of his game will continue to develop although he may be limited as a creator due to lack of ball skills. |
'
One way player that needs to learn offense from scratch. |
Understand but just turned 19. He can slash and be used as a lob threat. Has good hands and can muscle inside despite age. Real Madrid just never attempted to utilize him at that end of the court. |
I don't really see him as an NBA level lob threat, and don't trust his touch.
I get that age is part of upside, but real upside is skills alongside the age factor.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I see some skill off the dribble. and he's a good passer.. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | | I see some skill off the dribble. and he's a good passer.. |
What doesn't convince me, is the fact that he's timid on offense like Matisse Thybulle. Thybulle does *just* enough on offense to keep himself on the floor while being a defensive threat, but lacking that aggression as a big? I can't see it working well, unless there's a giant improvement and 1 definitive skill there.
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Mark10 45
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree it might not translate great. the skill level looks a lot like Draymond to me. I would trust him less bringing it up the court.. but in the halfcourt the handle looks similar.. and the passing is legit good |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark10 45 wrote: | | I agree it might not translate great. the skill level looks a lot like Draymond to me. I would trust him less bringing it up the court.. but in the halfcourt the handle looks similar.. and the passing is legit good |
Draymond had outlier skill growth in order to make it work.
I just think that if a player is going to be that little of a threat on offense, they have to absolutely be a rebounder to 3/4 of Ben Wallace level on top of the block and steal rates. And Ben was still a lob threat too.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | PlantedTanks wrote: | I am starting to favor Jared Butler if Tre Mann is gone.
See him as a Malik Beasley type scorer while providing ancillary PG skills and defensive potential. |
Beasley's much more of an athletic advantage off-ball scorer, though he can get going on OtD jumpers when he's feeling it.
This is total recency bias, but Butler reminds me of a bigger Cameron Payne. Having a guy who can come in off the bench and hit pull-up threes and keep defenses honest with the occasional drive to the cup would be nice to have, especially since Butler seems like he'll be better defensively.
I'm skeptical of him (and Mann) as a future NBA starter versus younger guys like Springer and Prkacin who could be there at #22, though. |
I understand your skepticism. I also have my concerns about both being future NBA starters. My expectations at pick 22 is to be solid rotational players with bonus if they evolve into starters.
I do have a different perception between pg/wings vs. pf/centers when it comes to starting and draft position. I see pg and wings needing to be better athletes and better skilled vs. pf and centers. For this reason I tend to believe starters for big men can be found later in the draft. By the last 3rd of the first round the good athletes have been selected or those available are lacking in skill. |
I think it's a sliding scale of skill/athleticism at all positions with positional size providing young players more leeway to succeed.
But yes, the level of skill small guards need to succeed is greater because there are more human beings sized 5'10-6'3 than there are human beings standing 6'10+. The level of skill Trae Young has to have to be a star as a skinny 6'1 average NBA athlete is insane. Most sub-6'5 guards still in college aged 21-23 are there because they don't have that insane skill level and typically benefit from experience/physical maturity against younger CBB players.
The league has also mostly caught up with the fungibility of non-offensive-hub big men so athletic-ish rim protectors have fallen in the Lakers current draft range in several drafts the past 7-8 years. Isaiah Jackson or Usman Garuba would be fine pickups at #22 over Jared Butler. |
I'd take Garuba but can you convince me why Isaiah Jackson over Butler?
Really concerned over his light weight frame and it may take 2-3 years before he is able to physically match up to NBA big men. |
Sorry, lost track of your question and wanted to circle back.
I think he'll be fine matching up physically against most backup big men by year two similar to what we've seen from Claxton. Rebounding wasn't an issue for him in CBB that I could tell, and most teams don't have a post behemoth. I worry somewhat more about how he'll acclimate to the responsibilities of an NBA backline defender, but there were some solid awareness flashes.
In a vacuum you could talk me into Butler as the better draft prospect, and the Lakers certainly need AtB three point shooters, but I also think they need an injection of youth and athleticism in their frontcourt. Jackson looks like he has the physical tools to have a chance on switches and to rotate out to the corners against 5-out offenses. Plus the Lakers miss having a viable vertical threat besides AD. I'm thinking of Jackson winning minutes against ground bound backups like Derrick Favors or being a reasonable deterrent against a Clippers small ball lineup by killing Batum on the offensive glass without taking away switchability.
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Is there a good Begarin primer out there?
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Megaton
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Practice
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | So at this point, who is everyone's most ideal pick at 22? If you had the draft go your way? |
Cade
in all seriousness the McBride talk has kinda sold me on him a bit. He both seems to be a nice prospect and a really good fit for the Lakers, but there's a ton of players in this range all around the same tier of prospect imo, so it's hard to just say there's one I find the most ideal. |
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | So at this point, who is everyone's most ideal pick at 22? If you had the draft go your way? |
Kai Jones. Have seen him fall in 2 or 3 mocks recently. |
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Miles McBride 1st round or DJ Steward 2nd.
Similar player profile physically and on court. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Is there a good Begarin primer out there? |
No.
Tons of growth skill wise, but still really raw, can't read the floor, stronger athlete than Jalen and every bit as explosive.
Not ready yet. Draft and stash 1-2 years.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | So at this point, who is everyone's most ideal pick at 22? If you had the draft go your way? |
Vrenz
Duarte
Prkacin
Edwards
McBride
Rokas
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | So at this point, who is everyone's most ideal pick at 22? If you had the draft go your way? |
Prkacin
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lakerfanaticPT
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | So at this point, who is everyone's most ideal pick at 22? If you had the draft go your way? |
For me: Duarte
Roko
McBride
Vrenz |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Josh Giddey: "Great passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - maybe top 20"
Scottie Barnes: "Good passer, below average athlete, poor shooting profile - #6 with a bullet!" |
Defense? |
What about it? Trae Young is a game away from the ECF. |
Fair enough. That’s certainly a unique approach to player evaluation. |
As an aside to this snarky rebuttal, there are guys who are wired to score and guys who aren't. Scottie Barnes is not wired to score. He's Wendell Carter, Jr as a defensive specialist playmaking big
Josh Giddey is wired more to score (to go along with his superior athleticism and ball handling skills). He's not wired to score a lot, but he's looking for that slow mo layup or pull-up jumper often enough like a lead guard should
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LakersMD
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ Didn’t mean to be snarky. Just the first time I’ve read a draft analysis that disregards one end of the floor. Also the first time I’ve ever read anybody say Giddey is a superior athlete to Scottie Barnes. But I agree with you that spending a top 6 pick on a guy who can’t score is not worth the risk. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | ^ Didn’t mean to be snarky. Just the first time I’ve read a draft analysis that disregards one end of the floor. Also the first time I’ve ever read anybody say Giddey is a superior athlete to Scottie Barnes. But I agree with you that spending a top 6 pick on a guy who can’t score is not worth the risk. |
I want you to embrace Giddey as a better athlete than Barnes because it's true. Scottie Barnes is a (bleep) (bleep) athlete.
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