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PLATNUM
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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The cool part will be trying to chug a beer while you're airborne.
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
AFAIK it's just shelved until/if he can get federal funds, presumably from a Democrat president-led infrastructure bill. I thought the big problem was trying to go from Bakersfield to LA, presumably via tunnel? |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:24 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
AFAIK it's just shelved until/if he can get federal funds, presumably from a Democrat president-led infrastructure bill. I thought the big problem was trying to go from Bakersfield to LA, presumably via tunnel? |
the more publicity it gets, the less likely you will get Senators and Reps from 49 other states to allocate funds to bail out California. Stops. delays and changes to the project will only cause costs to skyrocket even more. It is not about California or even rail, it is bureaucracy, special interests, and regulations that will likely kill this project. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:50 am Post subject: |
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My concern was safety. From what I've been able to gather there's only been 1 high speed rail accident in China and it was caused by human error. I welcome anything that takes cars off the road in California.
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: |
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wasnt the ticket prices going to be much higher than just taking a plane?
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | My concern was safety. From what I've been able to gather there's only been 1 high speed rail accident and it was caused by human error. I welcome anything that takes cars off the road in California. |
HSR is a great idea with how big this country is we should of already built the biggest system in the world on par with China or Europe.
But with heavy regulations and the country's enomarous debt it just isn't something likely to happen. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | My concern was safety. From what I've been able to gather there's only been 1 high speed rail accident in China and it was caused by human error. I welcome anything that takes cars off the road in California. |
HSR is a great idea with how big this country is we should of already built the biggest system in the world on par with China or Europe.
But with heavy regulations and the country's enomarous debt it just isn't something likely to happen. |
Correcting my post. I amended it to IN CHINA.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Gatekeeper
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | | wasnt the ticket prices going to be much higher than just taking a plane? |
I live in the Bay and I'd rather take rail than fly to LA any day. Even though the flight is only an hour, you end up getting to the airport at least an hour in advance to make sure you don't miss your flight with variable security lines. From getting into the airport to walking out, the whole thing takes 2 hours or so. Not to mention security is just unpleasant, and budget airlines like Southwest are often delayed. I usually pay $80 for Southwest tickets or something even more if I don't get Gotta Get Away... if I had peace of mind with $100-$140 tickets for HSR I'd take it every time. I think my Tokyo to Osaka trip was ~$120. But if we're talking $160-200 I would balk.
Last edited by tox on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
AFAIK it's just shelved until/if he can get federal funds, presumably from a Democrat president-led infrastructure bill. I thought the big problem was trying to go from Bakersfield to LA, presumably via tunnel? |
the more publicity it gets, the less likely you will get Senators and Reps from 49 other states to allocate funds to bail out California. Stops. delays and changes to the project will only cause costs to skyrocket even more. It is not about California or even rail, it is bureaucracy, special interests, and regulations that will likely kill this project. |
Yeah I don't know enough about the politics to know whether such a thing would get federal funding, just that that's what Newsom seemed to indicate. I think cost overruns should be baked into this kind of project, although I think even by those low standards the HSR plan was a disaster |
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waterman40
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Glad we finally are going to stop this cost overrun boon-doggle.
I do hope though they build out the water infrastructure though, we need a more reliable delivery source to So-Cal.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | tox wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
AFAIK it's just shelved until/if he can get federal funds, presumably from a Democrat president-led infrastructure bill. I thought the big problem was trying to go from Bakersfield to LA, presumably via tunnel? |
the more publicity it gets, the less likely you will get Senators and Reps from 49 other states to allocate funds to bail out California. Stops. delays and changes to the project will only cause costs to skyrocket even more. It is not about California or even rail, it is bureaucracy, special interests, and regulations that will likely kill this project. |
Yeah I don't know enough about the politics to know whether such a thing would get federal funding, just that that's what Newsom seemed to indicate. I think cost overruns should be baked into this kind of project, although I think even by those low standards the HSR plan was a disaster |
I love the idea of high speed rail....it was discussed here for several years, and John Mica was the Florida Congressman and Chair of the Transportation Department that originally secured the funding....it looked like a go, then Governor Scott killed it. I was not pleased at the time....they were talking about going from Orlando to Miami in like an hour or less. So many of these projects could get done if everyone was simply looking out for the interest of the public, but well before this stuff is approved, tons of land in the intended path ends up being bought by shell companies. Then in every town and county it passes through politicians have their hands out wanting it to benefit them in some manner. Then the connected and affluent business people in each community are looking for their piece. It just gets out of hand because everyone has an agenda and it is not building the best most efficient project.
A few years ago, Central Florida had plans on a rail system that would basically be a high speed rail or monorail of some sort that would go from Orlando Airport and travel to Disney...and along the way stop at 2 or 3 other hot tourist spots like Downtown, Sea World, International Drive and Universal Studios. This was a public funded project via tourist tax that would be very cost efficient for Disney who has a fleet of buses going between the airport and their property constantly all day. If I recall, it would save them Millions and Millions of dollars. Then at the end, Disney refused to allow the track to their property if it stopped anywhere in between the airport and Disney. The project made no sense without Disney, so it was scrapped. Disney was fearful that people may begin staying off property if they had easy access, and since Universal and Sea World did not operate a large fleet of buses, Disney feared they would benefit too much from the project. I know SoCal has their amusement parks and stuff...but how cool would it be for everyone to be able to hop a high speed rail from the time they landed and bounce around all week in a very efficient and environmentally friendly manner? The residents wanted it to take all those buses and rental cars off the highways....but Disney is the biggest game in town and used their power to kill the project if it benefited anyone but them.
It is a miracle the federal highway system was ever built because there are countless stories of shenanigans that took place in every state while that thing was being built. Entering WV from the South, you will travel about an hour out of your way on the highway headed towards Charleston because Senator Bob Byrd did not like a particular Mayor in a town, and used his power to remap the highway to completely bypass that town which required cutting through several mountains and significantly increased the time and cost to complete. Just because of a petty personal issue, millions of people each year that travel that highway either daily, weekly or only once are inconvenienced and lose an hour of their life. |
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Heartburn
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Joined: 04 Oct 2001
Posts: 6350
Location: The Titanic that is the USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | My concern was safety. From what I've been able to gather there's only been 1 high speed rail accident and it was caused by human error. I welcome anything that takes cars off the road in California. |
HSR is a great idea with how big this country is we should of already built the biggest system in the world on par with China or Europe.
But with heavy regulations and the country's enomarous debt it just isn't something likely to happen. |
I don't think regulations or debt are the reasons such a plan would fail. Instead, the oil, car and associated industries would kill the plan with lobbying. That's why LA didn't have rail for 60+ years. Oil, rubber and auto industries bought up the rail lines and closed them.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
I've heard that it would go along the I-5, but I wonder how that would work? It's not like there is extra room for a 220 mph train blowing past cars on the 5 between OC and the grapevine. So, would it be elevated above ground or in a tunnel? Either way it presents huge logistical challenges. I can't imagine a workable solution connecting only the 30 miles between Anaheim and Union Station. The train could not accelerate to speed and decelerate with the planned stops, so much of it just be regular-train speed (90 mph tops). There is no path available that won't be blocked like the 710 EXTENSION BATTLE that was finally conceded after a 6 decade fight. I've heard that it could utilize existing rail lines, but there are already trains from Anaheim to LA - why would the HSR need to putter along like a regular train when there are already plenty of underutilized regular trains? The HSR is capable of going 220 mph, but the projected speed of their own estimate is 90 - 125 mph (minus the time it take to accelerate, decelerate and wait for boarding and un-boarding at the stops). Amtrak goes 79-110 mph right now, and no one rides it. HSR would not be significantly faster, certainly not enough to justify spending $100,000,000,000.00 for it.
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
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governator
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Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: |
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
ATT 5GE without the 5G |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
I've heard that it would go along the I-5, but I wonder how that would work? It's not like there is extra room for a 220 mph train blowing past cars on the 5 between OC and the grapevine. So, would it be elevated above ground or in a tunnel? Either way it presents huge logistical challenges. I can't imagine a workable solution connecting only the 30 miles between Anaheim and Union Station. The train could not accelerate to speed and decelerate with the planned stops, so much of it just be regular-train speed (90 mph tops). There is no path available that won't be blocked like the 710 EXTENSION BATTLE that was finally conceded after a 6 decade fight. I've heard that it could utilize existing rail lines, but there are already trains from Anaheim to LA - why would the HSR need to putter along like a regular train when there are already plenty of underutilized regular trains? The HSR is capable of going 220 mph, but the projected speed of their own estimate is 90 - 125 mph (minus the time it take to accelerate, decelerate and wait for boarding and un-boarding at the stops). Amtrak goes 79-110 mph right now, and no one rides it. HSR would not be significantly faster, certainly not enough to justify spending $100,000,000,000.00 for it.
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
You summed it up right there. You had entire sections where the train wasn't electrified so it wasn't going to be high speed. They also never got to the point of tunneling under the mountain ranges to connect the central valley to southern California which probably would've been the most expensive part of the project. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
I've heard that it would go along the I-5, but I wonder how that would work? It's not like there is extra room for a 220 mph train blowing past cars on the 5 between OC and the grapevine. So, would it be elevated above ground or in a tunnel? Either way it presents huge logistical challenges. I can't imagine a workable solution connecting only the 30 miles between Anaheim and Union Station. The train could not accelerate to speed and decelerate with the planned stops, so much of it just be regular-train speed (90 mph tops). There is no path available that won't be blocked like the 710 EXTENSION BATTLE that was finally conceded after a 6 decade fight. I've heard that it could utilize existing rail lines, but there are already trains from Anaheim to LA - why would the HSR need to putter along like a regular train when there are already plenty of underutilized regular trains? The HSR is capable of going 220 mph, but the projected speed of their own estimate is 90 - 125 mph (minus the time it take to accelerate, decelerate and wait for boarding and un-boarding at the stops). Amtrak goes 79-110 mph right now, and no one rides it. HSR would not be significantly faster, certainly not enough to justify spending $100,000,000,000.00 for it.
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
JMK. I don't think the high speed rail would go south of Union Station if the plan was LA to SF. That would eat into Amtrak's space. They already have the Pacific Surfliner from Union Station through OC all the way down to SD.
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ExPatLkrFan
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: |
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
ATT 5GE without the 5G |
Richard Blum already made his money so who cares they can shut it down now. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I'm not surprised it died....what I am surprised is that it was Gavin Newsom who reduced the scope of the project....this thing was Jerry Brown's baby. If they were serious about building HSR from LA to SF it would've been built on the I-5 corridor since the state owns the land and they don't have to go thru litigation to acquire the land for the current route, which unsurprisingly faces tons of legal and environmental hurdles. |
I've heard that it would go along the I-5, but I wonder how that would work? It's not like there is extra room for a 220 mph train blowing past cars on the 5 between OC and the grapevine. So, would it be elevated above ground or in a tunnel? Either way it presents huge logistical challenges. I can't imagine a workable solution connecting only the 30 miles between Anaheim and Union Station. The train could not accelerate to speed and decelerate with the planned stops, so much of it just be regular-train speed (90 mph tops). There is no path available that won't be blocked like the 710 EXTENSION BATTLE that was finally conceded after a 6 decade fight. I've heard that it could utilize existing rail lines, but there are already trains from Anaheim to LA - why would the HSR need to putter along like a regular train when there are already plenty of underutilized regular trains? The HSR is capable of going 220 mph, but the projected speed of their own estimate is 90 - 125 mph (minus the time it take to accelerate, decelerate and wait for boarding and un-boarding at the stops). Amtrak goes 79-110 mph right now, and no one rides it. HSR would not be significantly faster, certainly not enough to justify spending $100,000,000,000.00 for it.
HSR is a slick talking scam. It is a high-speed train without the high speed. Theft by deception. Bernie Madoff on rails. |
JMK. I don't think the high speed rail would go south of Union Station if the plan was LA to SF. That would eat into Amtrak's space. They already have the Pacific Surfliner from Union Station through OC all the way down to SD. |
I wish I was making it up, but what they sold to California tax payers is San Diego to Sacramento with spurs to SF and the IE.
It's Just a Train
The 2008 Due Diligence report and the 2013 Updated Due Diligence reports state that no existing high-speed system ever made meets the proposed operation speed and safety goals set forth in Proposition 1A that secured the financing to begin this project.
Of course, that didn't stop them from stealing the $10,000,000,000,00. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | I love the idea of high speed rail....it was discussed here for several years, and John Mica was the Florida Congressman and Chair of the Transportation Department that originally secured the funding....it looked like a go, then Governor Scott killed it. I was not pleased at the time....they were talking about going from Orlando to Miami in like an hour or less. So many of these projects could get done if everyone was simply looking out for the interest of the public, but well before this stuff is approved, tons of land in the intended path ends up being bought by shell companies. Then in every town and county it passes through politicians have their hands out wanting it to benefit them in some manner. Then the connected and affluent business people in each community are looking for their piece. It just gets out of hand because everyone has an agenda and it is not building the best most efficient project.
A few years ago, Central Florida had plans on a rail system that would basically be a high speed rail or monorail of some sort that would go from Orlando Airport and travel to Disney...and along the way stop at 2 or 3 other hot tourist spots like Downtown, Sea World, International Drive and Universal Studios. This was a public funded project via tourist tax that would be very cost efficient for Disney who has a fleet of buses going between the airport and their property constantly all day. If I recall, it would save them Millions and Millions of dollars. Then at the end, Disney refused to allow the track to their property if it stopped anywhere in between the airport and Disney. The project made no sense without Disney, so it was scrapped. Disney was fearful that people may begin staying off property if they had easy access, and since Universal and Sea World did not operate a large fleet of buses, Disney feared they would benefit too much from the project. I know SoCal has their amusement parks and stuff...but how cool would it be for everyone to be able to hop a high speed rail from the time they landed and bounce around all week in a very efficient and environmentally friendly manner? The residents wanted it to take all those buses and rental cars off the highways....but Disney is the biggest game in town and used their power to kill the project if it benefited anyone but them.
It is a miracle the federal highway system was ever built because there are countless stories of shenanigans that took place in every state while that thing was being built. Entering WV from the South, you will travel about an hour out of your way on the highway headed towards Charleston because Senator Bob Byrd did not like a particular Mayor in a town, and used his power to remap the highway to completely bypass that town which required cutting through several mountains and significantly increased the time and cost to complete. Just because of a petty personal issue, millions of people each year that travel that highway either daily, weekly or only once are inconvenienced and lose an hour of their life. |
Yeah I also love the idea of HSR, but I like preexisting HSR more than constructing new lines; you mentioned environmental benefits but I imagine it's almost a certainty that the up front cost of building a HSR system would outweigh the environmental advantage of riding HSR instead of driving or flying, given some assumptions about the progression of green energies. Then there's just the fact that you're investing billions of dollars in HSR which is basically not going to be profitable anyway. I'd much rather have used that money for local public transportation infrastructure development which is abysmal in California (as it tends to be nationally). Though I won't lie, as a SoCal native living in the Bay Area, being able to take the bullet train to LA instead of flying would have been amazing, especially if prices are fixed (as opposed to costing more when you get closer to the date).
Thanks for the story about Disney, that was interesting. That's the sort of thing that makes me think a grand infrastructure project like HSR is doomed to fail to begin with in this country. |
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