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jodeke
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
There was a similar poll based on ranking several weeks ago with the same basic result.

Tonight's debate will be the first time Warren and Biden are on the same stage together. The contrast should be interesting.

The debate will be on ABC at 8:00 pm EST.

Been moved to 8:30 EST, If this stands it'll start in 8 minutes.


They must be doing a tape delay because the debate's been going since 8:00 pm (you can watch live various places online). (I'm DVR'ing to watch later because I'm working.)

I see. I've been watching CNN and MSNBC. I've moved to ABC 7. It's on now. Thanks for the heads up.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject:

Predictable stuff on healthcare, with lots of screaming between Sanders and Biden. Warren won on style.

Castro delivered the worst moment of the debate, engaging Biden.

Beto and Booker have done well, considering they've barely spoken.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject:

Nothing to see here, move along.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:00 pm    Post subject:

Pretty much a snooze except for Julian Combover's ageist cheapshot.

Someone tell the moderators the economy exists.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject:

I enjoyed the debate. Helps there are less candidates. Candidates have more time to get out their identity. Missed the first hour though. Apparently that's when the fireworks happened.
-Yang promising to give UBI to 10 families for a year
-Castro wrongfully said Biden didn't remember what he said 2 minutes ago

In terms of Biden, I like that he now supports universal coverage. The "if you can't afford insurance and don't have any you'll be automatically enrolled in the program" part of his health care plan is new. He didn't say that in past debates.
I think it's an example of the candidates dragging Biden left (which I'm happy to see).

Another Biden thing. When the moderator asked near the end of the debate about personal setbacks, regrets, mistakes. Biden was fortunate the protestors stopped his original answer. He was going down the "don't apologize, don't explain" route of saying "I have none". But the minute or 2 it took to remove the protestors helped him think of a much better answer. Hearing about his family tragedies from his own mouth was heartbreaking and I'm sure relatable to alot of people.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:36 pm    Post subject:

The one "post-game" commentary that resonated with me is that Biden is a candidate who is running with no stated purpose other than he personally believes he can beat Trump - and his reasoning for that just amounts to the fact worked with Obama as his VP.

There's no expressed motivation for why he is running that sets him apart from the other candidates, much less inspires one to vote for him because of what he stands for.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject:

The post debate analysis that has made the most sense to me is CNN under their projections of "winners" and "losers" of the debate had Biden and Beto as winners, and Warren and Castro as losers which I viewed as well.

Castro is a punk and just sank his campaign lower than it was already.

In the world of Buddism, age is a strength but in the west it's viewed as a disease which is wack.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The beneficiaries of the debate this time around: Vice President Joe Biden, entrepreneur Andrew Yang and former El Paso Congressman Beto O'Rourke. The trio only won by default; there were no huge, stand out moments. Biden appeared to be alert and energized and dominated the field in speaking time. These things should be a baseline requirement for the Democratic candidate but here we are. Andrew Yang made Democrats on stage laugh at his unique policy plans, but the crowd was into it, and he had a number of applause lines. O'Rourke shined on gun policy and reparation talks, he'll likely gain some ground but not enough to boost him into the top tier of the race.

https://www.newsweek.com/democratic-debates-joe-biden-julian-castro-elizabeth-warren-beto-orourke-1459066

That's how I saw it too.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:56 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
The post debate analysis that has made the most sense to me is CNN under their projections of "winners" and "losers" of the debate had Biden and Beto as winners, and Warren and Castro as losers which I viewed as well.

Castro is a punk and just sank his campaign lower than it was already.

In the world of Buddism, age is a strength but in the west it's viewed as a disease which is wack.


You seem to be firmly in Biden's camp. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just want to pick your brain.
What do you find exciting about Biden's campaign? Is it his policy? Is it because he's the frontrunner? If somebody else passes him and becomes the frontrunner, would Biden still be your preference?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:08 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
The one "post-game" commentary that resonated with me is that Biden is a candidate who is running with no stated purpose other than he personally believes he can beat Trump - and his reasoning for that just amounts to the fact worked with Obama as his VP.

There's no expressed motivation for why he is running that sets him apart from the other candidates, much less inspires one to vote for him because of what he stands for.


In fairness, I thought that he addressed that in his final answer. He said that whenever he's been knocked down, he's answered the call for public service. I thought he said that after his son died, at first he had to grieve, but now that he's seen what Trump is doing to this country (I'm not sure that he specifically used those words), he's once again answering the call for public service. Now, we can all certainly discuss whether or not he's the right person to lead at this time, but I think that's at least a reasonable answer.

I just watched the debate, all 3 hours. This was easily Biden's best showing so far. Much more engaged, more detailed, just better. (It was a low bar, admittedly.) Castro really went over the line in his spar with Biden, especially because he was the one who was actually incorrect. It came across as not just mean, but ageist. I thought this was also the best that Beto has looked, by a mile. I like some of the things that Yang says, but it's just gimmicky, at this point. He's not a serious candidate, in my estimation. Beyond that, nothing really surprised me. Bernie, Warren, Booker, Buttigieg (who continues to impress me), and Klobuchar all pretty much are who we thought they were. I did think that Harris was better than in her last debate.

The top 3 will probably stay the same, but perhaps Biden did enough to get a little bit of a bump. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:15 am    Post subject:

It was difficult to watch it here in Europe in the early morning. But at some point, I just fell asleep. I don't remember the closing remarks.

Biden did relatively well, as has been said above. So his lead will remain.

Warren did fine, but there was a big stretch in the debate where she wasn't asked a question. She mostly gave good answers but didn't have a great, game-changing moment.

Bernie was just Bernie.

Castro might have killed his chances for VP. What an awful way to attack Biden.

Harris tried to focus on Trump, which I think everyone should do, but it did seem too calculated and too prepared. She'll stay stuck in the mid to low single digits.

Beto looked good, especially after the screaming fest between Biden and Bernie in the beginning. But it's definitely too late for him to make a big move. But he probably increased his chances for VP.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject:

^ I thought Yang performed well, also.
I just want somebody to ask him, why $1000 specifically. Why not $1100 or $1200. Is it just because $1000 is a round number?

Assuming UBI answers as many problems as he claims. I want to know the logic and data behind whatever number is chosen for the monthly stipend.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
^ I thought Yang performed well, also.
I just want somebody to ask him, why $1000 specifically. Why not $1100 or $1200. Is it just because $1000 is a round number?

Assuming UBI answers as many problems as he claims. I want to know the logic and data behind whatever number is chosen for the monthly stipend.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:53 am    Post subject:

Not a conspiracy nut, I just don't trust anyone who wants power over others

So Florida, Georgia...who else were likely hacked and potentially had votes changed?
Ohio..

People must realize Trump will let anyone do whatever it takes to
Keep him in office

How in history has the FEC been shutdown..why

Trump will sell whatever is left of America to keep himself
In office

Presidency or Die in a Federal Penitentiary?

2020 will be a Civil War Day one November 4th
Republicans and McConnell/Trump will make a nightmare out of voting night

Ohio somehow breaks every election cycle.. pretty scary America
People (bleep) with our votes and we're afraid of them?
Ohio by the numbers 2004
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/03/hitchens200503
Quote:
Machines are fallible and so are humans, and (bleep) happens, to be sure, and no doubt many Ohio voters were able to record their choices promptly and without grotesque anomalies. But what strikes my eye is this: in practically every case where lines were too long or machines too few the foul-up was in a Democratic county or precinct, and in practically every case where machines produced impossible or improbable outcomes it was the challenger who suffered and the actual or potential Democratic voters who were shortchanged, discouraged, or held up to ridicule as chronic undervoters or as sudden converts to fringe-party losers.


Then they create a false flag level 10 terrorist warning
In Warren county and removed all reporters and non essential staff
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:02 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
The post debate analysis that has made the most sense to me is CNN under their projections of "winners" and "losers" of the debate had Biden and Beto as winners, and Warren and Castro as losers which I viewed as well.

Castro is a punk and just sank his campaign lower than it was already.

In the world of Buddism, age is a strength but in the west it's viewed as a disease which is wack.


You seem to be firmly in Biden's camp. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just want to pick your brain.
What do you find exciting about Biden's campaign? Is it his policy? Is it because he's the frontrunner? If somebody else passes him and becomes the frontrunner, would Biden still be your preference?


Not to be rude , but can I ask you a question as well? there are a few here that beat the drum for Warren Wayyyyyy more than I do for Biden ( I have intentionally not posted here for a few weeks because of the echo chamber Vibe TBH-just seems to be "warren this".... and " Warren that"...). So my question would be to you- do you honestly not see the obvious anti- Biden/pro- Warren slant here?
Serious question.

Now to answer your question my guy, I have actually posted this before, but Biden has more foreign policy experience than any other candidate and it's not even close.
Warren has a lot of great ideas and we need strong ideas to make sure everyone has a fair shake, I also feel Warren (or yang) would be the best president if a recession hit, but it will be tough to fix things if the world destroys itself.

I think no other leader than Biden would so quickly be able to re smooth decades old alliances, work with NATO to actually go after Russia hardcore, and start to screw with china more in the cyber realm. I think the biggest threat now is no longer NK, but Russia influencing elections and trying to get far right leaders elected all over NATO.

Biden would get doofuses like Orban in Hungary to toe the line more than Sanders and Warren IMO.


I like Warren as does my Fiancee and would and vote for her or Bernie if they are the nominee but people always seem to forget the electoral college here and I really don't think Warren could ever take Texas or Ohio- two states that Biden have been polled as being able to win.

Do you really want to just eke out a victory, or win resoundingly?

That's where I'm at but that is not the popular opinion here So I just gave up on posting really but after the debate I guess I wanted to vent about Castro.
Biden is the guy who swore Castro in as HUD secretary... such disrespect.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:13 am    Post subject:

Sanders adviser is now Biden’s senior adviser? What happened
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
kikanga wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
The post debate analysis that has made the most sense to me is CNN under their projections of "winners" and "losers" of the debate had Biden and Beto as winners, and Warren and Castro as losers which I viewed as well.

Castro is a punk and just sank his campaign lower than it was already.

In the world of Buddism, age is a strength but in the west it's viewed as a disease which is wack.


You seem to be firmly in Biden's camp. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just want to pick your brain.
What do you find exciting about Biden's campaign? Is it his policy? Is it because he's the frontrunner? If somebody else passes him and becomes the frontrunner, would Biden still be your preference?


Not to be rude , but can I ask you a question as well? there are a few here that beat the drum for Warren Wayyyyyy more than I do for Biden ( I have intentionally not posted here for a few weeks because of the echo chamber Vibe TBH-just seems to be "warren this".... and " Warren that"...). So my question would be to you- do you honestly not see the obvious anti- Biden/pro- Warren slant here?
Serious question.

Now to answer your question my guy, I have actually posted this before, but Biden has more foreign policy experience than any other candidate and it's not even close.
Warren has a lot of great ideas and we need strong ideas to make sure everyone has a fair shake, I also feel Warren (or yang) would be the best president if a recession hit, but it will be tough to fix things if the world destroys itself.

I think no other leader than Biden would so quickly be able to re smooth decades old alliances, work with NATO to actually go after Russia hardcore, and start to screw with china more in the cyber realm. I think the biggest threat now is no longer NK, but Russia influencing elections and trying to get far right leaders elected all over NATO.

Biden would get doofuses like Orban in Hungary to toe the line more than Sanders and Warren IMO.


I like Warren as does my Fiancee and would and vote for her or Bernie if they are the nominee but people always seem to forget the electoral college here and I really don't think Warren could ever take Texas or Ohio- two states that Biden have been polled as being able to win.

Do you really want to just eke out a victory, or win resoundingly?

That's where I'm at but that is not the popular opinion here So I just gave up on posting really but after the debate I guess I wanted to vent about Castro.
Biden is the guy who swore Castro in as HUD secretary... such disrespect.


Thanks for the reply. You answered my questions in great detail. My questions weren’t meant to be condescending or confrontational. Just purely inquisitive since like you said, there aren’t a lot of people in this thread who like Biden more than other candidates.

I’m pro-Warren because of income and wealth inequality. I think it is by far the biggest issue in our country. The pre-2008 crash middle class is dead. They are now working poor. I believe she acknowledges the problem as much if not more than any other candidate in the race (tied with Sanders). But unlike Sanders she has clear plans for addressing the issue (including how to pay for the policy).

I think where we diverge is that you place a greater emphasis on foreign policy. Which of course is fine. I hope you feel welcome to post more in this thread. Your POV is informative. I mean, Biden is the front runner after all.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
kikanga wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
The post debate analysis that has made the most sense to me is CNN under their projections of "winners" and "losers" of the debate had Biden and Beto as winners, and Warren and Castro as losers which I viewed as well.

Castro is a punk and just sank his campaign lower than it was already.

In the world of Buddism, age is a strength but in the west it's viewed as a disease which is wack.


You seem to be firmly in Biden's camp. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just want to pick your brain.
What do you find exciting about Biden's campaign? Is it his policy? Is it because he's the frontrunner? If somebody else passes him and becomes the frontrunner, would Biden still be your preference?


Not to be rude , but can I ask you a question as well? there are a few here that beat the drum for Warren Wayyyyyy more than I do for Biden ( I have intentionally not posted here for a few weeks because of the echo chamber Vibe TBH-just seems to be "warren this".... and " Warren that"...). So my question would be to you- do you honestly not see the obvious anti- Biden/pro- Warren slant here?
Serious question.

Now to answer your question my guy, I have actually posted this before, but Biden has more foreign policy experience than any other candidate and it's not even close.
Warren has a lot of great ideas and we need strong ideas to make sure everyone has a fair shake, I also feel Warren (or yang) would be the best president if a recession hit, but it will be tough to fix things if the world destroys itself.

I think no other leader than Biden would so quickly be able to re smooth decades old alliances, work with NATO to actually go after Russia hardcore, and start to screw with china more in the cyber realm. I think the biggest threat now is no longer NK, but Russia influencing elections and trying to get far right leaders elected all over NATO.

Biden would get doofuses like Orban in Hungary to toe the line more than Sanders and Warren IMO.


I like Warren as does my Fiancee and would and vote for her or Bernie if they are the nominee but people always seem to forget the electoral college here and I really don't think Warren could ever take Texas or Ohio- two states that Biden have been polled as being able to win.

Do you really want to just eke out a victory, or win resoundingly?

That's where I'm at but that is not the popular opinion here So I just gave up on posting really but after the debate I guess I wanted to vent about Castro.
Biden is the guy who swore Castro in as HUD secretary... such disrespect.


Thanks for the reply. You answered my questions in great detail. My questions weren’t meant to be condescending or confrontational. Just purely inquisitive since like you said, there aren’t a lot of people in this thread who like Biden more than other candidates.

I’m pro-Warren because of income and wealth inequality. I think it is by far the biggest issue in our country. The pre-2008 crash middle class is dead. They are now working poor. I believe she acknowledges the problem as much if not more than any other candidate in the race (tied with Sanders). But unlike Sanders she has clear plans for addressing the issue (including how to pay for the policy).

I think where we diverge is that you place a greater emphasis on foreign policy. Which of course is fine. I hope you feel welcome to post more in this thread. Your POV is informative. I mean, Biden is the front runner after all.


I like Warren, too, for the same reasons. Her solution of a 2% wealth tax has some issues, though. The first being it will undoubtedly head to the Supreme Court as a possible 16th amendment violation, assuming it could pass the senate. Secondly, similar wealth taxes in the EU have under produced so much that many countries have actually abandoned them. Our own version of a "wealth tax", the estate tax, has been a toothless failure with only about 2000 families a year paying anything, which is probably 2000 families who immediately fired their lawyer. I think she's overselling it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:

I like Warren, too, for the same reasons. Her solution of a 2% wealth tax has some issues, though. The first being it will undoubtedly head to the Supreme Court as a possible 16th amendment violation, assuming it could pass the senate. Secondly, similar wealth taxes in the EU have under produced so much that many countries have actually abandoned them. Our own version of a "wealth tax", the estate tax, has been a toothless failure with only about 2000 families paying anything, which is probably 2000 families who immediately fired their lawyer. I think she's overselling it.


On your 1st point. I think you're right. And I think the Supreme Court in it's current form would try to block even more moderate tax policies. That's why we have to pack the court when we get in. The Senate filibuster has to go as well for the same reason. And my biggest criticism of Warren to this point is that she hasn't supported blowing up the filibuster. Maybe she's being naive or maybe she's waiting to be elected and the Dems to take the Senate publicly supporting it.

On your 2nd point. I don't believe difficulties in executing a tax plan is valid for not pursuing it. Institute the plan. And keep fixing it year after year to eliminate those who dodge payment with loopholes. If we stopped making plans because we worry the execution wouldn't be perfect when we instate it. We'd be paralyzed to making any significant change, ever.

Sure her projections for how much income will be generated is very likely optimistic. But I don't think that's enough to not try and trial and error those plans into workable form.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:

I like Warren, too, for the same reasons. Her solution of a 2% wealth tax has some issues, though. The first being it will undoubtedly head to the Supreme Court as a possible 16th amendment violation, assuming it could pass the senate. Secondly, similar wealth taxes in the EU have under produced so much that many countries have actually abandoned them. Our own version of a "wealth tax", the estate tax, has been a toothless failure with only about 2000 families paying anything, which is probably 2000 families who immediately fired their lawyer. I think she's overselling it.


On your 1st point. I think you're right. And I think the Supreme Court in it's current form would try to block even more moderate tax policies. That's why we have to pack the court when we get in. The Senate filibuster has to go as well for the same reason. And my biggest criticism of Warren to this point is that she hasn't supported blowing up the filibuster. Maybe she's being naive or maybe she's waiting to be elected and the Dems to take the Senate before doing it.

On your 2nd point. I don't believe difficulties in executing a tax plan is valid for not pursuing it. Institute the plan. And keep fixing it year after year to eliminate those who dodge payment with loopholes. If we stopped making plans because we worry the execution wouldn't be perfect when we instate it. We'd be paralyzed to making any significant change, ever.

Sure her projections for how much income will be generated is very likely optimistic. But I don't think that's enough to not try and trial and error those plans into workable form.


Something is better than nothing. I agree there.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:26 pm    Post subject:

^Yep. The elephant in the room is that the status quo isn't working for the large majority of Americans. And small fixes won't change that.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:15 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
^Yep. The elephant in the room is that the status quo isn't working for the large majority of Americans. And small fixes won't change that.


Warren seem even more of the 99%ers chance to begin to hhold wall street accountable

I just fear mainstream media not taking kindly to them democrats coming to take any of my billions...

The whole country has gone off the moral deep end.. and their goal is to keep pulling further

Some really scary (bleep) going on with the mind of Republican Americans
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:32 pm    Post subject:

Where is mainstream media on this
Not seen on my Google news feed.

https://www.theroot.com/trump-administration-officials-arrested-for-scamming-pu-1838044256
Quote:

Now I’m sure this was probably a coincidence, but somehow, this brand new utility company got a $200 million contract to rebuild Puerto Rico’s power grid four days after they made their bid. And then Tribble doubled it to $455 million. A few weeks later, she doubled it again to $945 million. And, because shady people don’t usually practice restraint, they doubled it again, until the contract reached $1.8 billion, the Associated Press reports. The people of Puerto Rico probably wouldn’t have been bothered by this except for one reason:
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
kikanga wrote:
^Yep. The elephant in the room is that the status quo isn't working for the large majority of Americans. And small fixes won't change that.


Warren seem even more of the 99%ers chance to begin to hhold wall street accountable

I just fear mainstream media not taking kindly to them democrats coming to take any of my billions...

The whole country has gone off the moral deep end.. and their goal is to keep pulling further

Some really scary (bleep) going on with the mind of Republican Americans


I agree. Biden is the candidate closest to pre-Trump Republicans.

And it's helped him. Especially among older voters.

Among Dems, Biden's dominating African American voters. Maybe it's as simple as the fact that he was Barack's VP. But it couldn't hurt if Warren tried to improve her ground game in AA communities. There's still plenty of time.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
kikanga wrote:
^Yep. The elephant in the room is that the status quo isn't working for the large majority of Americans. And small fixes won't change that.


Warren seem even more of the 99%ers chance to begin to hhold wall street accountable

I just fear mainstream media not taking kindly to them democrats coming to take any of my billions...

The whole country has gone off the moral deep end.. and their goal is to keep pulling further

Some really scary (bleep) going on with the mind of Republican Americans


I agree. Biden is the candidate closest to pre-Trump Republicans.

And it's helped him. Especially among older voters.

Among Dems, Biden's dominating African American voters. Maybe it's as simple as the fact that he was Barack's VP. But it couldn't hurt if Warren tried to improve her ground game in AA communities. There's still plenty of time.


Last night Joy Reid (speaking from her knowledge of African American women voters) said that if Biden "lost" the first two primaries (Iowa and New Hampshire) that AA women would have no problem hoping off the Biden train in favor of another candidate they thought could win. Right now Biden is coasting on the "I am the most electable" argument; but if he loses Iowa and/or NH that changes the calculation.
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