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kikanga
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:


Definitely. That will certainly be crucial come 11/2020. The problem is, the public in general doesn't impeach and the those in power in the GOP are not going to. So rather than embark on a political theater that will not result in the desired action and will help the GOP argument as Trump as victim, hammer away on the acts he committed and demonstrate the corruption involved. That will (hopefully) encourage more people to vote against Trump rather than dig in and support him defensively.


Trump's cult is going to show up in 2020 either way. If it's not impeachment, Fox News will find something else to rile up their base.

A big reason why their was a blue wave in 2018 was to FINALLY give Trump a check to his power. OUR turnout is more important than Trump's. "Too afraid to hold Trump accountable" isn't much of a rallying cry heading into 2020.

Another argument I hear is, "there are bigger issues for Dems in Congress to focus on". Policy that isn't a waste of time like impeachment. That argument ignores the fact that Dems can do more than 1 thing at a time. But more importantly, as long as Republicans run the Senate and Trump's in the White House. Dems can't do anything to address healthcare, climate change, tax policy, immigration, income inequality, etc.

Impeaching Trump is just as substantial as passing a bill that McConnell won't even bring to the floor. It's actually more substantial.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
"Too afraid to hold Trump accountable"
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:17 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
kikanga wrote:
"Too afraid to hold Trump accountable"


Who suggested anything remotely like that?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject:

Ex-Fox News host says its reputation for racism is 'for very good reason'
Eboni Williams, who co-hosted the show Fox News Specialists, says Roger Ailes founded network on fear of ‘devaluation of whiteness’

Quote:
A former Fox News host said the network was founded for the sole purpose of “demonizing ‘the other’”.

“Fox has a reputation for being bigoted and racist – all for a very good reason,” she said.

Williams said the key to understanding Fox’s approach was to understand its founder, Roger Ailes, who laid out his strategy clearly in his book.

“This man very plainly, in plain sight, says that he is forming a network to speak to one thing and one thing only: the demonizing of the other,” Williams said.

“I don’t know what his beliefs were, but what he knew was it would be very profitable,” she went on. “Nobody had ever done this before … There was no conservative news network speaking to the fear of intrinsic devaluation of whiteness in this country. And Roger saw a void, and like any smart business person – what? Find a need and fill it.”


Did Fox News originate in the Nixon White House?

Quote:
his idea for a conservative news source was conceived in 1970, when Ailes worked as a media consultant for then-President Richard Nixon.

Where was the idea for Fox News born?
According to Gawker, the concept was first outlined in a 1970 memo titled "A Plan for Putting the GOP on TV News." Gawker's John Cook found the document "buried deep within the Richard Nixon Presidential Library." In it, the author proposes sidestepping the "prejudices of network news" to get "pro-administration," pro-Republican video directly to local TV stations.



the idea for Fox News came from discussion between Colson, Ailes and Roger Stone in Nixon's WH...can't imagine a desire to align yourself with these creeps.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:29 am    Post subject:

How quickly people forget what won the midterms. What swing those usually red districts in places like Orange County. How slim those victories were. The thought of not only failing to win the presidency, but also losing the house, because we need to make a (grand)stand on a principle, is a frightening thought. Angry people tend to do stupid things.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject:

So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


How do you know it won't be efficacious?

This is not about self satisfaction by the way. What must done is make the case to the general public that
1. The POTUS is corrupt
2. The GOP congress is protecting a corrupt POTUS
3. Get the public to replace those corrupted politicians out of office
4. Set the rule that a POTUS can't be corrupt even if his party has majority in congress AND protecting him
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


And where was “doing nothing” even remotely suggested?
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governator
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


And where was “doing nothing” even remotely suggested?


change it to 'not proceeding with impeachment' if it's more accurate for you
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:

the idea for Fox News came from discussion between Colson, Ailes and Roger Stone in Nixon's WH...can't imagine a desire to align yourself with these creeps.


Have you seen the people over half of America has consistently voted into Congress over the past 243 years? America's very tolerant of creeps. Always has been. The record on this is clear an undeniable from day one until this day in 2019. Trump couldn't happen if that creepy factor wasn't there and fairly universally tolerated to begin with. Mitch McConnell doesn't keep getting re-elected because he's some sort of outlier. The Republcan party isn't in lockstep with these sick views because they're a select club that's not representative of their constituency. Fox News hasn't just existed. It's THRIVED for over a quarter century for a reason. Until Americans get together and look inward like the Germans did after the Nazi purge, these vile people will continue to wield power because their warped views continue to be tolerated. When Germans got a clear view of the repugnancy that was being sold as representative of them as a people, they looked inward and did the hard work of passing laws, but more importantly PURGING the instincts of the people to not only tolerate - but wholesale repudiate the sickness from within. They stopped electing people enmasse to represent them that didn't reflect the character of the nation they wished to be. In Germany, the repugnancy of a Fox News would have been shouted down in it's infancy. But in America, it gave a common voice to a HUGE swath of repugnancy amongst us. And today it's the megaphone for more than 60 million Americans. And til we wholesale repudiate their ability to thrive amongst us, we'll continue to be stuck with them as a fair representation of half this nation. People need to get off their arse and join the fight against them. Until that occurs, Fox news, and the reprobates it represents, will continue to thrive and stain this great nation. America needs it's Nazi purge...
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


How do you know it won't be efficacious?

This is not about self satisfaction by the way. What must done is make the case to the general public that
1. The POTUS is corrupt
2. The GOP congress is protecting a corrupt POTUS
3. Get the public to replace those corrupted politicians out of office
4. Set the rule that a POTUS can't be corrupt even if his party has majority in congress AND protecting him


I'm in agreement with 1, 2, 3. Also I think those things are being done. I like 4 but don't think it's something that's doable.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


If we don't impeach the most corrupt President in modern history. Someone who has attacked our own institutions. Made our allies weaker. And to put it plainly, exhibited treasonous behavior. Are Dems a party worth voting fo?

A lack of pragmatism hasn't been the Dems problem for a long time. Turning out the base was our 2016 problem.

Don't impeach because Republicans won't convict is kinda like saying. Don't combat climate change because China is (and probably will be for the forseeable future) a far worse offender.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


If we don't impeach the most corrupt President in modern history. Someone who has attacked our own institutions. Made our allies weaker. And to put it plainly, exhibited treasonous behavior. Are Dems a party worth voting fo?

A lack of pragmatism hasn't been the Dems problem for a long time. Turning out the base was our 2016 problem.

Don't impeach because Republicans won't convict is kinda like saying. Don't combat climate change because China is (and probably will be for the forseeable future) a far worse offender.


Your points are what have me so damn conflicted. I really believe we should start impeachment proceedings but also think they may benefit Trump. His camp is packed with master manipulators.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject:

might be time to call on republicans to do something ...
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Support for impeaching President Donald Trump has fallen 7 points since December, a CNN Poll conducted by SSRS finds, following Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi calling impeachment "so divisive to the country."

The decline -- from 43% in favor in December to 36% now -- stems largely from a change in Democratic views on impeaching the President. In December, 80% of self-identified Democrats said they were in favor of impeachment -- that now stands at 68%, a 12-point dip.

The only major subgroup among which the decline was larger than among Democrats is college graduates: 50% backed impeachment in December, 35% do so now. Combining the two to look at Democrats with college degrees, support for impeachment fell 17 points from 79% in December to 62% now.


March 19th



Quote:
Among moderate or liberal-leaning voters, 31% think pursuing impeachment is a good use of Democrats' time, while 40% disagree with that assertion, an INSIDER poll conducted immediately after the Mueller report release found.

Respondents who identified themselves as liberal-leaning were more likely to be interested in pursuing impeachment. Half of the respondents identifying as very liberal said impeachment was an "extremely" or "very" good use of time.

Of those 713 respondents, 31% say pursuing Trump's impeachment is a good use of the Democratic Party's time, while 40% said it's not such a good use of time or not at all a good use of time.

Respondents who identified themselves as liberal-leaning were more likely to be interested in pursuing impeachment.

Of those who didn't list an affiliation, 19% thought impeachment was an extremely or very good use of time.
Of those who were neither liberal nor conservative, that figure rose to 22%.
For slightly liberal respondents it was 32%.
Among moderately liberal respondents it jumps to 34%.
Very liberal came just shy of a majority, with 50%.


Among respondents who said they'd likely participate in their state's Democratic primary or caucus, 20% said impeachment was an extremely good use of time, 18% said it's a very good use of time, 20% said it's somewhat good, and 36% said it was not such a good use, or not at all a good use of time. Only 6% didn't have an opinion, showing that impeachment is fairly galvanizing.

If the House of Representatives were to impeach Trump, the case would be tried in the Senate, in which a two-thirds majority would be required to convict him, an unlikely outcome given that the chamber is controlled by the Republican party by a 53-47 majority.


April 19th
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


If we don't impeach the most corrupt President in modern history. Someone who has attacked our own institutions. Made our allies weaker. And to put it plainly, exhibited treasonous behavior. Are Dems a party worth voting fo?

A lack of pragmatism hasn't been the Dems problem for a long time. Turning out the base was our 2016 problem.

Don't impeach because Republicans won't convict is kinda like saying. Don't combat climate change because China is (and probably will be for the forseeable future) a far worse offender.


Your points are what have me so damn conflicted. I really believe we should start impeachment proceedings but also think they may benefit Trump. His camp is packed with master manipulators.


We shouldn't be afraid of their base. Their base has a ceiling and we've seen it. They should be afraid of our base. WE should be afraid of our base. If Dems won't stand up now, that's how disillusionment for the voting process spreads. That's how "nothing will change no matter who I vote for" spreads.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
How quickly people forget what won the midterms. What swing those usually red districts in places like Orange County. How slim those victories were. The thought of not only failing to win the presidency, but also losing the house, because we need to make a (grand)stand on a principle, is a frightening thought. Angry people tend to do stupid things.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
That’s the essence of grandstanding, to make a move for the principle of it without it being efficacious. It’s also why people sit out when their candidate loses the primary. A misplaced sense of principle. The principle here is to stop and then hopefully punish the behavior. The right thing is to win. Trump is protected by the levers if power. We must wrest back those levers. And if that means temporarily forgoing our self satisfaction, then that is what we must do.


If we don't impeach the most corrupt President in modern history. Someone who has attacked our own institutions. Made our allies weaker. And to put it plainly, exhibited treasonous behavior. Are Dems a party worth voting fo?

A lack of pragmatism hasn't been the Dems problem for a long time. Turning out the base was our 2016 problem.

Don't impeach because Republicans won't convict is kinda like saying. Don't combat climate change because China is (and probably will be for the forseeable future) a far worse offender.


Your points are what have me so damn conflicted. I really believe we should start impeachment proceedings but also think they may benefit Trump. His camp is packed with master manipulators.


Quote:
We shouldn't be afraid of their base. Their base has a ceiling and we've seen it.

It's not their base that causes me angst it's the mood of the hidden populates that will vote for Trump incognito. There are many who don't like Trump but favor his stance on immigration and racism.
Quote:
They should be afraid of our base. WE should be afraid of our base.


Our base is as solid as Trumps. My concern is registration and actually voting.
Quote:
If Dems won't stand up now, that's how disillusionment for the voting process spreads. That's how "nothing will change no matter who I vote for" spreads.

I have a feeling Dems will come out in force. Trumps administration has a silver cloud lining, it's caused those who in the past payed no attention to government to now doing so.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject:

if the democrats decide to impeach, which I think is a mistake, they need to have the Mueller hearing for the public to see.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Our base is as solid as Trumps. My concern is registration and actually voting.


Great post overall.
Just want to highlight this point because this point is why I want the House to impeach. And impeach him for everything. Emoluments, coordinating with a foreign power, campaign finance violations, obstruction. All of it. Be the party that says enough is enough. That will rally the base and inspire Democrat voters long past Trump.

Nothing is more important than turning out our base.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
governator wrote:
So you think it's just a grand standing or political theater to try to impeach a corrupt president (even if you agree that Trump has done impeachable offenses). I don't see it the same way. The principle matters, to not do anything is what frightens some of us


And where was “doing nothing” even remotely suggested?


change it to 'not proceeding with impeachment' if it's more accurate for you


It's not a question of what is more accurate for me.

The comment was a blatant misrepresentation of what is being said, clearly in an attempt to dismiss any merit to it.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Our base is as solid as Trumps. My concern is registration and actually voting.


Great post overall.
Just want to highlight this point because this point is why I want the House to impeach. And impeach him for everything. Emoluments, coordinating with a foreign power, campaign finance violations, obstruction. All of it. Be the party that says enough is enough. That will rally the base and inspire Democrat voters long past Trump.

Nothing is more important than turning out our base.


If Trumps actions haven't aroused the base nothing will. My fear is impeaching him will give him fodder, keep him in the media. He uses the media to make points for free. Also I don't think emoluments is an impeachable offense though it can be something stressed in Trumps favorite source, the media. Learn from the Donald, use the media for free point making.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:10 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Don't impeach because Republicans won't convict is kinda like saying. Don't combat climate change because China is (and probably will be for the forseeable future) a far worse offender.


Horrible analogy. The strategic move to not impeach is not just throwing your hands in the air and giving up, as that analogy insinuates.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Our base is as solid as Trumps. My concern is registration and actually voting.


Great post overall.
Just want to highlight this point because this point is why I want the House to impeach. And impeach him for everything. Emoluments, coordinating with a foreign power, campaign finance violations, obstruction. All of it. Be the party that says enough is enough. That will rally the base and inspire Democrat voters long past Trump.

Nothing is more important than turning out our base.


I think part of the problem is a misunderstanding of who The Democratic haze is. Hint: your base is the broadest section that reliably turns out. Aiming to turn out the least reliable of your voters at the expense of your actual base is poor logic, which is why Pelosi’s midterm strategy was exactly NOT red meat impeachment because that feels like principle to the least practical voters. Impeachment is like putting all your troops on boats and attacking the Japanese homeland directly after Pearl Harbor. Pelosi is an island hopper, and if you want to truly hold Trump and the GOP to account, you ought to listen to her.
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