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kikanga
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 Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | To the people in this thread who believe we should nominate Biden and not impeach Trump I have a question. How do you feel about Democrats using back channels to coordinate with China to sway the 2020 election?
If we're going the "by any means approach". That seems like the next logical step. China hacks his taxes. Hacks voting machines if necessary. They tank the US economy in October and November leading up to the election. And that is a devastating blow to Trump's re-election chances.
We can go back to pursuing altruism after the agent orange is out of the White House. |
Eh, I'd prefer to stick to the "They go low, we go high" approach. Not at all interested in seeing the Dems just reduce themselves to swimming in the swamp. There's no way to wash off that filth once you do. There's no value in giving ammo to the "both sides are the same" crowd.
Trump can be beaten without reducing ourselves to his despicable level. |
But why is that your line? And not impeaching a President for impeachable offenses. Or nominating a candidate who isn't openly hostile towards Democrats?
Couldn't you argue we're already reducing ourselves? If we're going "by any means necessary". Why give Trump a working with a foreign power advantage?
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | To the people in this thread who believe we should nominate Biden and not impeach Trump I have a question. How do you feel about Democrats using back channels to coordinate with China to sway the 2020 election?
If we're going the "by any means approach". That seems like the next logical step. China hacks his taxes. Hacks voting machines if necessary. They tank the US economy in October and November leading up to the election. And that is a devastating blow to Trump's re-election chances.
We can go back to pursuing altruism after the agent orange is out of the White House. |
Eh, I'd prefer to stick to the "They go low, we go high" approach. Not at all interested in seeing the Dems just reduce themselves to swimming in the swamp. There's no way to wash off that filth once you do. There's no value in giving ammo to the "both sides are the same" crowd.
Trump can be beaten without reducing ourselves to his despicable level. |
But why is that your line? And not impeaching a President for impeachable offenses. Or nominating a candidate who isn't openly hostile towards Democrats?
Couldn't you argue we're already reducing ourselves? If we're going "by any means necessary". Why give Trump a working with a foreign power advantage? |
Nope. And it's not my line.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Nope. And it's not my line. |
We aren't impeaching a President who committed impeachable offenses because we want to win in 2020. How is that not lowering ourselves?
If beating Trump is the priority no matter what. Why give him the advantage of coordinating with a foreign power, when we could do the same?
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I'm down with a plan that prioritizes altruism.
And I'm down with a plan that prioritizes winning over everything else.
But going halfway in either direction doesn't make sense.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Nope. And it's not my line. |
We aren't impeaching a President who committed impeachable offenses because we want to win in 2020. How is that not lowering ourselves?
If beating Trump is the priority no matter what. Why give him the advantage of coordinating with a foreign power, when we could do the same? |
Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw |
So we should impeach trump for committing impeachable offenses then?
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Nope. And it's not my line. |
We aren't impeaching a President who committed impeachable offenses because we want to win in 2020. How is that not lowering ourselves? |
The argument against not impeaching Trump is not simply a matter of wanting to win at all cost. Quite the opposite. Impeaching Trump has no chance of being successful. I understand the theory that impeaching Trump under those circumstances provides a sense of honor in "doing the right thing" and if I thought it would actually play out that way, that'd be one thing. But it won't in this political climate. It will just play out as easy to spin political theater for the GOP. I'm not adamantly against impeachment. I just don't think it will come off as nobly as others think it will. It's question of choosing your battles wisely.
Not saying I'm correct - it's just my instinct. Besides, there are ways to accomplish emphasizing Trumps crimes without going down the path that leads nowhere.
So no. It's not "lowering ourselves" . . . not even remotely.
| Quote: | | If beating Trump is the priority no matter what. Why give him the advantage of coordinating with a foreign power, when we could do the same? |
It's not. Yes, Trump needs to be defeated. But not at the expense of becoming part of the problem by just expanding the swamp so we can just jump right in with the GOP.
Trump can be beaten without becoming the vermin we despise. It might not be easy, but I'll take a hard fight over throwing up my hands and becoming what I hate.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw |
So we should impeach trump for committing impeachable offenses then? |
I'm curious, and I ask this sincerely and not as an antagonistic challenge. How do you see impeaching Trump as actually playing out? In your estimation, what would ultimately be accomplished?
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I'm down with a plan that prioritizes altruism.
And I'm down with a plan that prioritizes winning over everything else.
But going halfway in either direction doesn't make sense. |
I personally don't think it's as mutually exclusive as you apparently do. I just don't think it's impossible to win honorably. I think honor and wisdom can be utilized to accomplish the goal. So why go the dishonorable route if we don't have to?
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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As an aside . . .
I realize over the last several months I have let my frustrations with the downward spiral Trump and the GOP have created get the best of me and I have been more bombastic and antagonistic than I mean to be or should be - and on more subjects than I likely realize.
My plan is to correct that, and when I fail I trust people will call me on it as they have lately . . .
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming . . .
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm down with a plan that prioritizes altruism.
And I'm down with a plan that prioritizes winning over everything else.
But going halfway in either direction doesn't make sense. |
I personally don't think it's as mutually exclusive as you apparently do. It's not impossible to win honorably. I think honor and wisdom can be utilized to accomplish the goal. So why go the dishonorable route? |
Is it honorable to not impeach Trump even though he committed impeachable offenses?
I don't get it. If trading in doing the "right" thing to win is fine in 1 case. It should be fine in all cases.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I'm down with a plan that prioritizes altruism.
And I'm down with a plan that prioritizes winning over everything else.
But going halfway in either direction doesn't make sense. |
I personally don't think it's as mutually exclusive as you apparently do. It's not impossible to win honorably. I think honor and wisdom can be utilized to accomplish the goal. So why go the dishonorable route? |
Is it honorable to not impeach Trump even though he committed impeachable offenses? |
I believe I have explained my particular thoughts on how impeachment would play out and what it would actually accomplish ad nauseam. If you and others think my reservations simply reduce down to a "win at all cost" attitude, then I guess I haven't done a great job of expressing those reservations.
I don't believe there is any loss of honor in not engaging in a process that won't yield the desired results when there are ways to actually get results without giving the GOP a tool to use against the Dems.
As I have said, (also repeatedly) I understand some people's desire to make a symbolic effort of nobility, and I don't fault people for wanting to pursue that. I just personally don't think at the end of the day that impeachment for the sake of feeling good about doing the "right thing" is going to have the lasting impact that others do.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | As I have said, (also repeatedly) I understand some people's desire to make a symbolic effort of nobility, and I don't fault people for wanting to pursue that. I just personally don't think at the end of the day that impeachment for the sake of feeling good about doing the "right thing" is going to have the lasting impact that others do. |
I feel like I could replace the bolded with "not working with China" and make the same exact argument. That's why I feel like an arbitrary line is being drawn on what's acceptable and what's not.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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The only argument I can think of for not impeaching that can't be shared with working with China is: illegality. One is legal and the other isn't.
But the obvious retort to that is. Illegality didn't stop Trump from being our President. And losing political capital is the #1 reason why I've heard Dems be against impeachment.
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Last edited by kikanga on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Nope. And it's not my line. |
We aren't impeaching a President who committed impeachable offenses because we want to win in 2020. How is that not lowering ourselves?
If beating Trump is the priority no matter what. Why give him the advantage of coordinating with a foreign power, when we could do the same? |
We are the minority political party in power. Not numbers of citizens but in general.. NO power..
Blame Mitch McConnell ..
William Barr
Vladamir Putin
A failed impeachment try will look good in history books but is something that will Rally Republicans around this creep even more.. Attacking "Our President"
I think all of these public readings of The Mueller Report may help our society to heal from this by making people wake up.. But even that still needs time
FWIW.. I do not think we want to put ourselves in the corruption boat ie asking for foreign help. We could choose to do one or two things.. but doing those one or two just lumps us in with ALL of Trumps.. no lines get blurred.. corruption is corruption
Impeachment will be started before 2020 elections.. need our Candidate set and then we can burden Trump with impeachment |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw |
So we should impeach trump for committing impeachable offenses then? |
Decipher the quote. It says don't lower yourself to Trumps level.
Impeaching Trump should be done. Doing it is delicate undertaking. Don't make a mistake. IMO Nancy Pelosi is approaching impeachment the right way. I think she'll eventually side with impeachment. I also think she's waiting to time it right.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw |
So we should impeach trump for committing impeachable offenses then? |
Decipher the quote. It says don't lower yourself to Trumps level.
Impeaching Trump should be done. Doing it is delicate. Don't make a mistake. IMO Nancy Pelosi is approaching impeachment the right way. I think she'll eventually side with impeachment. I also think she's waiting to time it right. |
I've heard the quote. I understand it. That's why I wanted you to clarify. Because when I originally started the convo I was looking for people against impeachment AND against working with China.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
George Bernard Shaw |
So we should impeach trump for committing impeachable offenses then? |
Decipher the quote. It says don't lower yourself to Trumps level.
Impeaching Trump should be done. Doing it is delicate. Don't make a mistake. IMO Nancy Pelosi is approaching impeachment the right way. I think she'll eventually side with impeachment. I also think she's waiting to time it right. |
I've heard the quote. I understand it. That's why I wanted you to clarify. Because when I originally started the convo I was looking for people against impeachment AND against working with China. |
People can be against impeachment and also want to impeach. It won't remove Trump because the Senate won't convict so what would impeachment accomplishment? Sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the right thing.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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There is a remarkable difference between choosing not to engage in a prosecution and committing an illegal, treasonous act. Being unwilling to do something that is neither required (show me the part of the constitution where it says Congress “must” impeach, I’ll wait) nor remotely likely to produce the end it was designed for (removal) in favor of something you feel is more likely to result in a quicker removal from office and a chance to prosecute is not the equivalent of conspiring with a foreign adversary to subvert elections. Nor is electing Joe Biden. At some point, if that’s not obvious, it might not be Congress that has a problem with its perceptions and priorities.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Fwiw, as I’ve said before, Pelosi is fine with impeachment if and when it crosses the threshold of being a winning strategy. And if you pay attention, she’s been allowing that process to occur.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | There is a remarkable difference between choosing not to engage in a prosecution and committing an illegal, treasonous act. Being unwilling to do something that is neither required (show me the part of the constitution where it says Congress “must” impeach, I’ll wait) nor remotely likely to produce the end it was designed for (removal) in favor of something you feel is more likely to result in a quicker removal from office and a chance to prosecute is not the equivalent of conspiring with a foreign adversary to subvert elections. Nor is electing Joe Biden. At some point, if that’s not obvious, it might not be Congress that has a problem with its perceptions and priorities. |
The bolded isn't a good faith argument. The constitution gave Congress the power to impeach specifically for instances where the President commits impeachable offenses. Show me the part of the Constitution where it says the Congress must pass new laws (I'll wait). But the Constitution gave Congress the power to do so specifically for instances where it's called for (just like impeachment).
The bolded "perceptions and priorities". I could say the same about you not supporting impeaching months ago. But jabbing one another goes nowhere.
So if Trump wins because we impeached him months ago for committing impeachable offenses. That's not okay.
But if he wins by conspiring with a foreign power again. And we had the chance to do the same and refused. That's okay?
If impeachment is a meaningless gesture that won't produce the desired end result. One could argue, so is following the law while the opponent doesn't.
So there is a limit to what is an acceptable way to win the election. We're just arbitrarily choosing to say ignoring Congresses constitutional duty doesn't meet that limit.
I don't understand why the line is drawn there. Seems like people are uncomfortable with committing illegal acts for the same reason others are uncomfortable not impeaching.
Either we should try to win by any means necessary, or we shouldn't.
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Last edited by kikanga on Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:05 am; edited 6 times in total |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 am Post subject: |
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If someone believes not impeaching (when it's warranted) is fine but colluding isn't. They are pretty much saying right and wrong matters less than winning.
But legal and illegal matters more than winning.
The only problem with that is. The winners determine what is legal and what isn't. The winners determine what laws are enforced and what laws aren't. And the winners determine whom the law is enforced on and whom they aren't enforced on. Trump has made that painfully clear since taking office.
This is the pandora's box of US politics that Trump has created and opened. And I'm unsure we can close it by lowering ourselves halfway between our duty and how Trump plays the game. You're better off either relentlessly pursuing what's right, or fighting Trump's fire with fire.
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| Say no to treason |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | If someone believes not impeaching (when it's warranted) is fine but colluding isn't. They are pretty much saying right and wrong matters less than winning.
But legal and illegal matters more than winning.
The only problem with that is. The winners determine what is legal and what isn't. The winners determine what laws are enforced and what laws aren't. And the winners determine whom the law is enforced on and whom they aren't enforced on. Trump has made that painfully clear since taking office.
This is the pandora's box of US politics that Trump has created and opened. And I'm unsure we can close it by lowering ourselves halfway between our duty and how Trump plays the game. You're better off either relentlessly pursuing what's right, or fighting Trump's fire with fire. |
I was OK with Nancy's position of patience, so long as progress was being made in the various investigations. It's not. The Democrats are just spinning their wheels. Where the f is Mueller?
Now we are hearing that Barr killed seven different investigations started by special counsel Robert Mueller just ten days after he submitted his report.
It is time to (bleep) or get off the pot. It appears the Democrats are losing because they want to talk instead of pushing forward. Show spine instead of words. If a subpoena for Mueller is not issued this week, I say it is time to ramp up the impeachment rhetoric to eleven.
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Clinton was impeached on December 19, 1998, by the House of Representatives on grounds of perjury to a grand jury (by a 228–206 vote)[18] and obstruction of justice (by a 221–212 vote).[19] |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton
All things Trump has done repeatedly
Where are THOSE Republicans now? |
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