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vasashi17+
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:11 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
A lot of people always say " everything is great cuz the record"
but what are our great wins?

We beat MIA on the road without Dragic and Winslow - their two primary ball handlers. No disputing it was a playoff intensity game, but it wasn't close to their playoff roster.. We also beat them at home without Winslow. Not saying Winslow is great, but even a little contribution in a close game is something.

We beat the Jazz on a b2b, without Conley.. Idk what Conley would have done in that game, he's had more of a down year.. But still, who knows.. he can have a solid game, no problem.

We beat the Nuggets on the road. they were at full strength. Great win.

We beat HOU on the road. they were at full strength, we were not.. Best Win of the year? love it.

We beat Dallas on the road in a close one.. really good win.. but they're not an elite team to me.. so I don't put it in the highest possible tier of wins..

We're playing Philly Saturday and they'll be without Josh Richardson... We can only play who shows up - sure.. but that doesn't mean that it should be construed to be a win showing we're the best team in the league or on some crazy level...

Part of the reason I write this is because --- the measuring stick games are the funnest for me... And it just always disappoints me when one of the teams isn't at full strength.
We get these Ws in the regular season and think we're clearly so much better? But if we played these teams in the playoffs, they'd be something of a different look...

We've had a successful season, very successful - but is it simultaneously a very proven season? Those things don't have to be perfect aligned; wins don't have to mean the biggest conclusion.


Yep....

pjiddy wrote:
The top tier teams to me:


Bucks (0-1)
Clippers (0-2)
Celtics (0-1)
Raptors (0-1)
Nuggets (1-1)
Jazz (2-0)
Dallas (2-1)
Sixers (haven't played)

What the top 4 teams have in common: big scoring wings.

Nuggets and Jazz: we match up well against these teams, which is what playoffs are all about: matchups. They may kill teams we struggle against, but AD is able to neutralize their strength. Jokic cannot keep up with AD defensively but AD can. AD also pulls Gobert out to the 3 point line, where his rim protector impact is neutralized. Neither team had a big scoring wing to hit us where we're vulnerable...until the Nuggets started playing MPJ. That's a huge thing to keep an eye on. If we play them again and lose, and he goes off on us, i expect a lot of "meh, we're 2-2 against them nbd," but we wont' be 2-2 against the same Nuggets team.

Dallas? They've played us well. Needed an OT and a Luka concussion to win the first one. Got our asses kicked at home the 2nd time. Convincing win the third time, but they didn't have Porzingis in that one. I don't really consider them a serious contender, but their star player is only 20 years old. And they have the ammunition to add the kind of player that we struggle against.

Overall, we're 2-6 against teams with a big scoring wing. We will most certainly have to get past the Clippers to make the Finals, and my money is on Bucks and MAYBE the Celtics in the East. We're a combined 0-4 against them. I think it's totally rational to be concerned about the makeup of our team.


....and yep!

Here’s another concept. We have this great regular season AND have Bron and AD playing ridiculously low efficient minutes.

How does one accomplish that? Uh, great place to start is 34m in cap space and addressing the roster with more than just one dimensional players remaining in free agency. Our big get this summer in free agency was Green...a dude who avgs 25mpg for his career, came off a lengthy title campaign and is about to be 33 y/o. How is that dude suppose to help Bron catch some zzzs over on the bench?

Here’s the thing about our plan this summer that is now our ‘21 plan. Unless you got good intel a star is coming, don’t hope for the best. It’s no different than hoping for Bron & AD not to get hurt, yet forcing them at full time point guard and playing them at positions they not “comfortable” with. That’s the very definition of self-inflicted wound due to poor roster construction. Hey, but let’s hope for the best!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:11 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
2019 wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
anth2000 wrote:

All the roster moves aren't great, we get that. Some good, some not so good. Other than Green, everyone else came at a bargain price compared to the market.


McGee was not a bargain. He was over market and get got a PO, giving him a no trade rights.

Even Cook was an overpay at $3m. Not much, but still if you take McGee and Cook's cap-space and spend it on one player, you get Derrick Rose at $7m.


The minimum is $500K less... hardly an overpay


Which is why you force him to take the min, so you have the entire cap-space to use.



I don't know that we could have gotten McGee for less. He was coming off a good season and generated interest.

No ideas what offers Cook was getting. I wouldn't be surprised if we expected him to have a bigger role, since he was coming off a strong GSW season and we got him before Bradley and Rondo. Initially there was talk he might start.

As far as Rose, I don't think we (or most) teams were interested in him when he was a free agent. His injury history scared everyone. Even in his bounce-back season last year he only played 50 games. Since we were already taking a flier on Cousins, we might not have wanted a second guy like that.


Last edited by activeverb on Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Beir32
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
LakerMindLA wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
The top tier teams to me:


Bucks (0-1)
Clippers (0-2)
Celtics (0-1)
Raptors (0-1)
Nuggets (1-1)
Jazz (2-0)
Dallas (2-1)
Sixers (haven't played)

What the top 4 teams have in common: big scoring wings.

Nuggets and Jazz: we match up well against these teams, which is what playoffs are all about: matchups. They may kill teams we struggle against, but AD is able to neutralize their strength. Jokic cannot keep up with AD defensively but AD can. AD also pulls Gobert out to the 3 point line, where his rim protector impact is neutralized. Neither team had a big scoring wing to hit us where we're vulnerable...until the Nuggets started playing MPJ. That's a huge thing to keep an eye on. If we play them again and lose, and he goes off on us, i expect a lot of "meh, we're 2-2 against them nbd," but we wont' be 2-2 against the same Nuggets team.

Dallas? They've played us well. Needed an OT and a Luka concussion to win the first one. Got our asses kicked at home the 2nd time. Convincing win the third time, but they didn't have Porzingis in that one. I don't really consider them a serious contender, but their star player is only 20 years old. And they have the ammunition to add the kind of player that we struggle against.

Overall, we're 2-6 against teams with a big scoring wing. We will most certainly have to get past the Clippers to make the Finals, and my money is on Bucks and MAYBE the Celtics in the East. We're a combined 0-4 against them. I think it's totally rational to be concerned about the makeup of our team.


We can also put asterisk next to each for the Lakers.

Celtics - first game back for AD/Rondo
Bucks - Lakers had injury issues.
Clippers - can't use game 1 as a barometer. Game 2 should have been a win.


Na, they didn't have Paul George.. we should have won.. And what injury issues did the Lakers have against the Bucks - who's to say our guys will be more fresh in the Finals?

Game 1 was a playoff team from the previous year plus Kawhi Leonard vs. a handful of players in their first game together. I’m not worrying too much about that game.


Okay how about the other game that we lost?

We blew a lead and lost? Not sure what you want me to say unless you assumed that I was trying to make excuses for all our losses.

Since you brought it up though…holding a lead for most of the game and blowing it late is a (bleep) way to lose and, since it was our second loss in two tries to a rival it felt a lot worse than it probably should have. We weren’t helpless and we weren’t dominated. We lost. The end.

People are acting like we can’t beat the Clippers. I just think we haven’t done it yet. We only played them twice. Get back to me after the next game.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject:

It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject:

I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:21 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:24 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.


43 points in a half is crazy in this era of basketball .. and it looked as gross as the point total suggests
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Beir32
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:26 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.

Ok? Do you think we can’t beat them? I’m not even sure what we’re talking about here.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still

I doubt that comes close to happening, I do think LaVine will be traded in the next 6 months if the Bulls somehow land Anthony Edwards but other than that they’ll wait it out on him, he’s good value as he stands on his current contract
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Beir32
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:28 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.


43 points in a half is crazy in this era of basketball .. and it looked as gross as the point total suggests

So if we beat them next game then what? Is it significant or is it just another regular season game?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:29 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.

Ok? Do you think we can’t beat them? I’m not even sure what we’re talking about here.


We’re just talking about our flaws in relation to our record and how great we are.. just cuz we’re great doesn’t mean we’re not flawed and should be arrogant about our playoff outlook
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject:

I called it the first game of the season... Davis needs to be your C and if you want to keep up with these teams scoring the basketball. Simple as that.



Bradley 23%
Davis 29%
Mcgee ......
Lebron 36%


Not gonna cut it.



Daniels
KCP
Green
LeBron
Davis


I'm willing to put my money on this team vs anyone in the league. 3 40% shooters with the best paint finishers in the game. Go head Kawhi dribble for 20 seconds for a 2pt fade away... we will come right back down and have a sniper shoot a 3. I know it is easy to just do what has always been done before but i think it's pretty obvious our offense can't keep up.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:
vasashi17+ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Quote:
It was all self inflicted


No one had intel on him. Even close confidantes of his were on TV saying Lakers had a great shot at him. You shoot your shot, sometimes it doesn't work.

But we are living with the consequences of not having that 3rd star and in particular, a perimeter threat.


Right...

Or...

We coulda had more dudes parking up in other free agent driveways...

We coulda used our cap space, which we hoarded for 2 years, in other ways instead of scrambling it away...

We coulda got Bron, who is in his 17th season, some more playmaking instead of trot him out there like he’s 17...

We coulda traded for assets we list in the AD purge to seek out further assistance later as the trade deadline approached...

We coulda locked up AD and play him more at 5 without the fear of losing him in free agency if we undermined his simple request...

Yinoma, it was a self-inflicted wound...actually looking at Bron’s total minutes played this season so far...it still is a self-inflicted wound.

Not one GM in the position the Lakers were in would have abandoned their run at Kawhi Leonard. Not one.

If they woulda told him to piss off then this entire board woulda gone into melt down mode calling for the heads of Rob, Jeanie and everyone else in a management position.

Shooters shoot. We’re the Lakers. We went big game hunting and came up short. Coulda, woulda, shoulda. Calling it a “self inflicted wound” is revisionist history and more then a little unfair to a team that leads the Western Conference by 4 games at the halfway point.


Not revisionist at all, many here called it once the rumor started. It seemed that the FO was looking at the name and not the person. If one paid a good day of attention to him you would know that he isn’t a follower. He wants to beat Lebron, not join him. I think that was another case where inexperience was shown.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject:

McMenamin was on Lowe’s pod today:

-Lakers have definitely inquired about Bogdan and Covington.
-McMenamin thinks they should try and get D Rose
-Lakers brass don’t trust Rondo and are looking to shore up the PG position
-Zach Lowe worries about the Lakers needing a wing defender especially against the Clippers.

So nothing we don’t know and nothing really newsworthy, but it’s good to see that even our own FO understands we can’t just stand pat and hope for the best.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
It wasn’t as simple as having a lead and losing it.. the offense was stagnant from like mid 2nd on - it looked like the offense against Boston, where it was discombobulated , standnant, TOs.. it was really bad on that side of the ball.


Yup. We scored 5 points in the Final 6 minutes. They scored 15. "blowing a lead" is what you do when you're relaxing against a team. We were definitely not relaxing. We couldn't score, while they pretty much got what they wanted.

EDIT: Further to KIROE's point, we put up 63 in the 1st half. 43 in the 2nd half. Stagnant offense. It's been a theme.


43 points in a half is crazy in this era of basketball .. and it looked as gross as the point total suggests

So if we beat them next game then what? Is it significant or is it just another regular season game?


It would definitely be comforting. Moreso if it's a convincing win with an adjustment by Vogel that gives us a convincing advantage. But if we eek it out without doing much different, our record against Big Scoring Wing teams will still be of a major concern. And when you need to get 4 wins a piece against those kind of teams, one Clippers win isn't going to make me feel loads better no.

Honestly, it might be better for us in the long run to lose the next Clippers game. Beating them might make Rob feel better about not making any trades before the trade deadline. After February 2nd, we're down to prayers (certain buyout guys coming to the Lakers AND being in actual shape)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:36 pm    Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still


I think the fact that the clippers have struggled against some scoring guards, it may be a justifiable move (he’s still young).

You could say Beverly can be assigned to stopping LaVine like he is with Harden but then that opens things up for Lebron who seems to struggle with Beverly which then opens more up for AD.

Edit: obviously you have to worry about concerns on defense because Green is then gone and LaVine is not the greatest defender. Kuzma has been decent on defense lately too.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
McMenamin was on Lowe’s pod today:

-Lakers have definitely inquired about Bogdan and Covington.
-McMenamin thinks they should try and get D Rose
-Lakers brass don’t trust Rondo and are looking to shore up the PG position
-Zach Lowe worries about the Lakers needing a wing defender especially against the Clippers.

So nothing we don’t know and nothing really newsworthy, but it’s good to see that even our own FO understands we can’t just stand pat and hope for the best.


encouraging to hear some of those points
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still


I think the fact that the clippers have struggled against some scoring guards, it may be a justifiable move (he’s still young).

You could say Beverly can be assigned to stopping LaVine like he is with Harden but then that opens things up for Lebron who seems to struggle with Beverly which then opens more up for AD.


yup

I've always thought of Lavine as a mostly empty stats kind of guy but he does seem like he's exactly what we need in a lot of ways

trade for him + Marvin Williams on a buyout

KCP
Lavine
LBJ
Marvin
AD

closing lineup
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still


I think the fact that the clippers have struggled against some scoring guards, it may be a justifiable move (he’s still young).

You could say Beverly can be assigned to stopping LaVine like he is with Harden but then that opens things up for Lebron who seems to struggle with Beverly which then opens more up for AD.


Lavine can be ran off of screens too, pindowns.. he’ll score one way or another
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject:

LaVine will take away our need for Rose. Who are we driving to the airport? I know it’s a pipe dream but this kid belongs in LA.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:41 pm    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still


I think the fact that the clippers have struggled against some scoring guards, it may be a justifiable move (he’s still young).

You could say Beverly can be assigned to stopping LaVine like he is with Harden but then that opens things up for Lebron who seems to struggle with Beverly which then opens more up for AD.


Lavine can be ran off of screens too, pindowns.. he’ll score one way or another


No doubt. LaVine is like an athletic JJ Redick.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:43 pm    Post subject:

Lavine:

Isolation: 52%ile
Transition: 56%ile
PNR Handler: 73%ile
Spot up: 40%ile <- yikes
Handoff: 63%ile
Cut: 59%ile
Off Screen: 81%ile <- nice
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
LaVine will take away our need for Rose. Who are we driving to the airport? I know it’s a pipe dream but this kid belongs in LA.


Short of a miraculous infatuation with Kuzma on the part of the Bulls FO, I just don't see us having the assets. Kuzma + THT? Surely another team can top that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:44 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
PHILosophize wrote:
I'd have some serious deja vu (Gasol) if we managed to land Lavine for kuz + green + THT + other stuff

obviously lavine is not nearly as good as Gasol but still


I think the fact that the clippers have struggled against some scoring guards, it may be a justifiable move (he’s still young).

You could say Beverly can be assigned to stopping LaVine like he is with Harden but then that opens things up for Lebron who seems to struggle with Beverly which then opens more up for AD.


Lavine can be ran off of screens too, pindowns.. he’ll score one way or another


No doubt. LaVine is like an athletic JJ Redick.


More like if Clarkson was taller, longer, was a better scorer, and a better dunker. And can come off screens like you guys are saying lol.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject:

Beir32 wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
“Self inflicted” is a truly weird way to decribe a team who leads the conference by 4 games.

I remember people were mad that we missed out on WCS. Like, truly angry. This place just isn’t happy unless it’s miserable.


Leading the conference by 4 games is not what the Lakers are about. They're about winning a titles. And come playoff time, you don't get to play any of the sub .500 teams we've padded our record on. You have to play the teams we've been struggling against. Tall wings tend to dominate in the postseason and that's what we've struggled against time and again.

Beating good teams in the regular season doesn’t win you that championship either. We’re all just gonna have to wait a few months before we crucify the front office for what they did or didn’t do in the offseason, which is the point of my entry into this conversation. Someone referring to our offseason as “self-inflicted wounds” when we’re hoisting a trophy in June is gonna sound pretty silly.


The FO doesn’t deserve to be raked over the coals, what they need is time to learn their positions. Unfortunately time is currently in short supply. Hopefully they learned something from the Kawhi situation. But this is a message board and discussing the pluses and minuses is what we do.
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