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PlantedTanks
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 Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: |
True...which is why both need to compete this postseason and prove their recent runs weren’t a fluke and/or heavily attributed to the unique situations COVID presented them with. Real talk, we would be saying this about any non-Laker title team as well. Especially for us and the way we are constructed around LeBron, it’s title or bust |
They already won, it's history. Whether they win again or not is irrelevant to the fact that they won that season. Winning again isn't proof it wasn't a fluke, it proves they were the best team under the current set of circumstances.
I fail to understand this obsession about a championship team having to subsequently prove they're actually a championship team. The Larry O'Brien trophy says it all.
And regardless of what happened two seasons ago, the team would need to contend for a championship. That would be expected with the talent they have. Besides, is it going to be a fluke going through a Kawhi-less West? What if Giannis and Durant go down with season ending injuries? Will it still be a fluke if they win it all?
You can literally go through every single NBA season and find some reason to discount that the eventual champion didn't go through every single possible competitor or obstacle and had a great deal of luck on their side. How many champions resulted from various last second shots? How come those teams aren't considered flukes? If you replayed various last second heroic shots over and over again you might get a variety of outcomes. So through all the multiverses there are scenarios were the Lakers did and didn't win in the bubble and where other past champions failed. Play that game all you want. But the universe we all live in, the Lakers won fair and square and were the best team under the circumstances that all the teams faced.
Moving forward, we all expect the team will try their best to be the last team standing again--another early round bow out will be a disappointment. Again, that would be the case regardless of what happened in the past.
I would also note that given that the composition of the two teams is substantially different, even if the previous championship was a fluke, how is the performance of a different roster an indication of how good the other team was? I mean sure, you have Lebron, AD, Dwight and Rondo back, but otherwise it's a new team. The performance of the two teams is largely unrelated based on roster composition, not to mention say coaching staff changes. Then there's rule changes to consider---for example, not rewarding offensive players for throwing themselves into a defender. So if the game is literally called differently, we can effectively say the two teams with different rosters are also playing under a different set of rules. Next, the composition of the competition is also different than what it was a couple of seasons ago. So since this team cannot face the same teams as before, we can't possibly know if their performance was a fluke. Lastly, Lebron is two years older. So even where you have the same player, they're not the same player as they were.
So you basically want to conduct an experiment that isn't possible to verify a hypothesis that isn't falsifiable. The banner is going to hang from Staples regardless of how flukey you think it is and the players are going to keep their rings because THEY WON. It's really that simple. Like were they not supposed to win that season in order to satisfy your desire to see them win in a sort of normal season (and recall last season wasn't even a normal NBA season with the shortened off season, fewer games, covid protocols, etc.)? I expect the new normal for the NBA moving forward is for there to not be a normal anymore and every season is going to be a bit weird until this covid thing has finally blown over. |
Have to agree with this. When teams are subject to extenuating conditions then the team that can best adapt and persevere deserves the accolades that come from success. There are always external factors that provide advantages/disadvantages for teams regardless of sport (injuries, officiating, weather, covid + a few I have failed to mention) and each team-player-coach must best adapt to the conditions and circumstances that are presented to them. This is no different than how we live our lives I believe.
From the viewpoint as fans do we not celebrate and value this last championship any different than previous ones? Of the many Laker titles in my lifetime this was as sweet as any other one.. Do I devalue it because of covid? Absolutely NOT. Adapt, persevere, overcome, conquer - Lakers 2019-2020.
Training camp, pre-season, regular season can't come too soon. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| PlantedTanks wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: |
True...which is why both need to compete this postseason and prove their recent runs weren’t a fluke and/or heavily attributed to the unique situations COVID presented them with. Real talk, we would be saying this about any non-Laker title team as well. Especially for us and the way we are constructed around LeBron, it’s title or bust |
They already won, it's history. Whether they win again or not is irrelevant to the fact that they won that season. Winning again isn't proof it wasn't a fluke, it proves they were the best team under the current set of circumstances.
I fail to understand this obsession about a championship team having to subsequently prove they're actually a championship team. The Larry O'Brien trophy says it all.
And regardless of what happened two seasons ago, the team would need to contend for a championship. That would be expected with the talent they have. Besides, is it going to be a fluke going through a Kawhi-less West? What if Giannis and Durant go down with season ending injuries? Will it still be a fluke if they win it all?
You can literally go through every single NBA season and find some reason to discount that the eventual champion didn't go through every single possible competitor or obstacle and had a great deal of luck on their side. How many champions resulted from various last second shots? How come those teams aren't considered flukes? If you replayed various last second heroic shots over and over again you might get a variety of outcomes. So through all the multiverses there are scenarios were the Lakers did and didn't win in the bubble and where other past champions failed. Play that game all you want. But the universe we all live in, the Lakers won fair and square and were the best team under the circumstances that all the teams faced.
Moving forward, we all expect the team will try their best to be the last team standing again--another early round bow out will be a disappointment. Again, that would be the case regardless of what happened in the past.
I would also note that given that the composition of the two teams is substantially different, even if the previous championship was a fluke, how is the performance of a different roster an indication of how good the other team was? I mean sure, you have Lebron, AD, Dwight and Rondo back, but otherwise it's a new team. The performance of the two teams is largely unrelated based on roster composition, not to mention say coaching staff changes. Then there's rule changes to consider---for example, not rewarding offensive players for throwing themselves into a defender. So if the game is literally called differently, we can effectively say the two teams with different rosters are also playing under a different set of rules. Next, the composition of the competition is also different than what it was a couple of seasons ago. So since this team cannot face the same teams as before, we can't possibly know if their performance was a fluke. Lastly, Lebron is two years older. So even where you have the same player, they're not the same player as they were.
So you basically want to conduct an experiment that isn't possible to verify a hypothesis that isn't falsifiable. The banner is going to hang from Staples regardless of how flukey you think it is and the players are going to keep their rings because THEY WON. It's really that simple. Like were they not supposed to win that season in order to satisfy your desire to see them win in a sort of normal season (and recall last season wasn't even a normal NBA season with the shortened off season, fewer games, covid protocols, etc.)? I expect the new normal for the NBA moving forward is for there to not be a normal anymore and every season is going to be a bit weird until this covid thing has finally blown over. |
Have to agree with this. When teams are subject to extenuating conditions then the team that can best adapt and persevere deserves the accolades that come from success. There are always external factors that provide advantages/disadvantages for teams regardless of sport (injuries, officiating, weather, covid + a few I have failed to mention) and each team-player-coach must best adapt to the conditions and circumstances that are presented to them. This is no different than how we live our lives I believe.
From the viewpoint as fans do we not celebrate and value this last championship any different than previous ones? Of the many Laker titles in my lifetime this was as sweet as any other one.. Do I devalue it because of covid? Absolutely NOT. Adapt, persevere, overcome, conquer - Lakers 2019-2020.
Training camp, pre-season, regular season can't come too soon. |
A ring is a ring is a ring.
The ring for 2019-20 doesn't need to be proven or certified or justified. It's in the books forever, no difference than the Lakers' previous rings.
That 2019-20 team is literally gone forever and will never exist again. What the team does this year, good or bad, has no bearing on the 2019-20 team. |
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waterman40
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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For me, a ring is not diminished or tarnished by circumstances such as a shortened strike season or Covid protocols. To me a tarnished championship is like what the Astros did, where cheating affected batted balls, and likely contributed to wins. It's why I always rooted against the Giants and the Cardinals during the steroids' era, because guys had necks like Brahma bulls and routine flyballs became homers. It's why I look at the Patriot's championships with at least suspicion, that some of their close won Super Bowls may have been influenced by cheating on some level.
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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I’m extra proud of the 2020 championship. People saying Lakers won a Mickey Mouse ring are so jealous because their team lost out and couldn’t win the same Mickey Mouse ring they’re so salty about. 
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
The Chicago Bulls owned the 1990s due to repeated success. San Antonio had repeated success in the 2000s, but it wasn’t quite the same. Between the two, one of those teams get brought up quite a lot more than the other when it comes to historic teams. The 72 win Bulls vs the 73 win dubs, Lakers 3peat vs Heatles/Dubs back to back...that’s all part of history too. There’s a clear distinction between certain teams and so no, a ring is not a ring.
I happen to agree with that philosophy. You guys can choose to see it different. Either way, the end game is to be the winningest NBA franchise conclusively. That remains to be achieved. Till then, have fun with the bubble ring...I’ll just wait till we get #18 to get hype with y’all.
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
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Imho, Phil was wrong. He just wanted headlines! Spurs deserved that title because they won it when 29 other teams couldn’t. Every team played with the same rules as the Spurs, no advantage given.
This whole asterisk thing going around are just from salty fans from teams who couldn’t win the rings they’re being sore losers about.
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LGFan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Armchair gm’s everywhere on this forum
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. |
Eh. Phil was always taking jabs at the Spurs. He once said the Spurs "weren't a dynasty but they had a wonderful run." Basically, Phil was all about knocking down other coaches who won during his era in order to puff up his own ego.
If you try hard enough you can think of a reason to justify hanging an asterisk on virtually every championship. In fact, some reporter wrote a column where listed why every team that has won a ring in the past 50 years could be an asterisk.
https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/nba-insider-tom-haberstroh/2020-nba-champion-will-join-long-list-titles-asterisks
I don't think anyone much cares about the "asterisks" except people who have a vested interest in praising or bashing a particular team.
Last edited by activeverb on Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LGFan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. |
Eh. Phil was always taking jabs at the Spurs. He once said the Spurs "weren't a dynasty but they had a wonderful run." Basically, Phil was all about knocking down other coaches who won during his era in order to puff up his own ego.
If you try hard enough you can think of a reason to justify hanging an asterisk on virtually every championship. I don't think anyone much cares about the "asterisks" except people who have a vested interest in praising or bashing a particular team. |
If the argument is flipped to their benefit the same people will say Phil didn’t win squat without MJ/Shaq/Kobe
Narrative’s everywhere to win internet arguments |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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And outside of the most dominant ever (which is why he’s called that, self-proclaimed or otherwise), MJ/Pip/Kob didn’t win squat without Phil either.
I already won, cause I live rent free and it even came furnished with an armchair!
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LGFan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | And outside of the most dominant ever (which is why he’s called that, self-proclaimed or otherwise), MJ/Pip/Kob didn’t win squat without Phil either.
I already won, cause I live rent free and it even came furnished with an armchair! |
Rob lives rent free full furnished….u gotta post non stop on an Internet forum …
Dissing his chip… |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | And outside of the most dominant ever (which is why he’s called that, self-proclaimed or otherwise), MJ/Pip/Kob didn’t win squat without Phil either.
I already won, cause I live rent free and it even came furnished with an armchair! |
The difference is you presume a significance to the "asterisks" that people try to hang on this and that championship.
I would contend the "asterisks" are meaningless, especially as time passes, and fewer and fewer people know or care about the details of specific championships.
Ultimately, it just becomes nothing more than a list of winners, just as players become nothing more than a page of statistics. |
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LGFan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | And outside of the most dominant ever (which is why he’s called that, self-proclaimed or otherwise), MJ/Pip/Kob didn’t win squat without Phil either.
I already won, cause I live rent free and it even came furnished with an armchair! |
The difference is you presume a significance to the "asterisks" that people try to hang on this and that championship.
I would contend the "asterisks" are meaningless, especially as time passes, and fewer and fewer people know or care about the details of specific championships.
Ultimately, it just becomes nothing more than a list of winners, just as players become nothing more than a page of statistics. |
💯
Last edited by LGFan on Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Maginka
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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The season obviously wasn't normal, same with the 2021 title to less of an extent.
But every team played on the same 94 ft. of hardwood with 2 baskets. Every team had an opportunity at the title, it's really the only thing anyone can come up with....is there someone that can argue a different team that should of or would've won that year |
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Harlemlakerfan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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An asterisks in sports, is when 1 team played with an unfair advantage against other teams.
The Lakers, finished with the best record in the west. Because of that, they would have had home court advantage, throughout the playoffs. Due to the bubble, they ended up not having it, leveling the playing field and stripping them of an earned advantage.
The death of Kobe hung over the team and the franchise the entire season, a burden that no other team had to deal with.
According to the players, the bubble was stressful, tedious environment that really wore on the players. If you were to win the title, you would have had to deal with those circumstances for over 3 months, testing your chemistry and mental toughness.
The Lakers fought through all of that and won the title. Calling the title a Mickey Mouse title or labeling it as a asterisk is the dumbest $h!t ever. It reeks of jealousy and lunacy. For people, in this group to even suggest such a thing is very disappointing. |
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LGFan
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Asterisks are written by internet clowns who have never played any competitive sports like Tim bontemps
Last edited by LGFan on Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:43 am; edited 2 times in total |
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mixtim
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| Harlemlakerfan wrote: | An asterisks in sports, is when 1 team played with an unfair advantage against other teams.
The Lakers, finished with the best record in the west. Because of that, they would have had home court advantage, throughout the playoffs. Due to the bubble, they ended up not having it, leveling the playing field and stripping them of an earned advantage.
The death of Kobe hung over the team and the franchise the entire season, a burden that no other team had to deal with.
According to the players, the bubble was stressful, tedious environment that really wore on the players. If you were to win the title, you would have had to deal with those circumstances for over 3 months, testing your chemistry and mental toughness.
The Lakers fought through all of that and won the title. Calling the title a Mickey Mouse title or labeling it as a asterisk is the dumbest $h!t ever. It reeks of jealousy and lunacy. For people, in this group to even suggest such a thing is very disappointing. |
Whoever calls Mickey Mouse the '19-20 title or labels it with an asterisk,is either a Celtics fan,a Clippers fan or a total idiot (some would say that 2 of the 3 options are very likely to be as one)
Thers is not a fourth possibility |
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GameCock-MD
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
The Chicago Bulls owned the 1990s due to repeated success. San Antonio had repeated success in the 2000s, but it wasn’t quite the same. Between the two, one of those teams get brought up quite a lot more than the other when it comes to historic teams. The 72 win Bulls vs the 73 win dubs, Lakers 3peat vs Heatles/Dubs back to back...that’s all part of history too. There’s a clear distinction between certain teams and so no, a ring is not a ring.
I happen to agree with that philosophy. You guys can choose to see it different. Either way, the end game is to be the winningest NBA franchise conclusively. That remains to be achieved. Till then, have fun with the bubble ring...I’ll just wait till we get #18 to get hype with y’all. |
Bucks lost to the team we beat in 19-20. Every other team had the same chances to win we did. We didn't gain any advantage being in the bubble that didn't apply to every other team. No crowds. No home court advantage. No special treatment. The winner won because of what they did on the court.
Respectfully, you're buggin', vash.
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | I’m extra proud of the 2020 championship. <snip> |
I'm extra fond of this championship as well considering:
* it was a ray of light during very dark/difficult period
* the team was all about sacrifice, humility and redemption, witness Howard, Rondo, McGee, Dudley, Vogel |
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Swagron12
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
The Chicago Bulls owned the 1990s due to repeated success. San Antonio had repeated success in the 2000s, but it wasn’t quite the same. Between the two, one of those teams get brought up quite a lot more than the other when it comes to historic teams. The 72 win Bulls vs the 73 win dubs, Lakers 3peat vs Heatles/Dubs back to back...that’s all part of history too. There’s a clear distinction between certain teams and so no, a ring is not a ring.
I happen to agree with that philosophy. You guys can choose to see it different. Either way, the end game is to be the winningest NBA franchise conclusively. That remains to be achieved. Till then, have fun with the bubble ring...I’ll just wait till we get #18 to get hype with y’all. |
A ring is a ring is a ring. Silly conversation to say the least. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
The Chicago Bulls owned the 1990s due to repeated success. San Antonio had repeated success in the 2000s, but it wasn’t quite the same. Between the two, one of those teams get brought up quite a lot more than the other when it comes to historic teams. The 72 win Bulls vs the 73 win dubs, Lakers 3peat vs Heatles/Dubs back to back...that’s all part of history too. There’s a clear distinction between certain teams and so no, a ring is not a ring.
I happen to agree with that philosophy. You guys can choose to see it different. Either way, the end game is to be the winningest NBA franchise conclusively. That remains to be achieved. Till then, have fun with the bubble ring...I’ll just wait till we get #18 to get hype with y’all. |
Bucks lost to the team we beat in 19-20. Every other team had the same chances to win we did. We didn't gain any advantage being in the bubble that didn't apply to every other team. No crowds. No home court advantage. No special treatment. The winner won because of what they did on the court.
Respectfully, you're buggin', vash. |
Facts.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | The winningest coach in NBA history claimed the Spurs title in the lockout shortened season of ‘99 came with an asterisk. Many claim ours and the Bucks title is no different. Prove them wrong and that it wasn’t fluky under normal regular season conditions.
The Chicago Bulls owned the 1990s due to repeated success. San Antonio had repeated success in the 2000s, but it wasn’t quite the same. Between the two, one of those teams get brought up quite a lot more than the other when it comes to historic teams. The 72 win Bulls vs the 73 win dubs, Lakers 3peat vs Heatles/Dubs back to back...that’s all part of history too. There’s a clear distinction between certain teams and so no, a ring is not a ring.
I happen to agree with that philosophy. You guys can choose to see it different. Either way, the end game is to be the winningest NBA franchise conclusively. That remains to be achieved. Till then, have fun with the bubble ring...I’ll just wait till we get #18 to get hype with y’all. |
Bucks lost to the team we beat in 19-20. Every other team had the same chances to win we did. We didn't gain any advantage being in the bubble that didn't apply to every other team. No crowds. No home court advantage. No special treatment. The winner won because of what they did on the court.
Respectfully, you're buggin', vash. |
Other than the obvious few who don’t deserve my respect....I respectfully disagree with the most of you and I’m positive most of y’all would be buggin had circumstances proven otherwise.
No season has ever had a 4 month break in between. Every team gains an advantage with that type of break, but imho it would be the teams who have older players and/or injury plagued players that gain a higher advantage. That 4 month break is arguably a well timed refresh to our duo.
Let’s just cLip the script...after their entire history of futility and ineptitude, what if the clips had won the bubble? What if Kawhi/PG used that time off to load manage their wounds? I’m almost positive most of y’all would be buggin at the result. Meanwhile, I would be consistent in saying that the cLips would have to show the world it wasn’t a fluke.
Kawhi and his load-managing ass would have to show me he could do it again without a 4 month reCOVIDry power down...PG and his reconstructed shoulders would have to show me that he could shoulder the load in the playoffs instead of reverting back to his usual layoff P form. They would have to show that their bubble title wasn’t a full on exploitation of an in-season 4 month hiatus, that no other regular season has ever featured. There is no way I accept that organizations only title in their history coming in this type of way until they prove it wasn’t based on the uniqueness of that season. I wouldn’t be buggin’ then, would I?
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Of course the four month break impacted the results. Same as being in the bubble impacted it. Same as every championship “story” has some injury, fluke play or unexpected hero to impact the results.
Bottom line is every championship is decided with 16 wins (current format) and one team celebrating. They earned the respect of the accomplishment no matter what the “story”.
Lakers earned the title of NBA Champions. Just like every champion before or after. Simple as that! |
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governator
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | Of course the four month break impacted the results. Same as being in the bubble impacted it. Same as every championship “story” has some injury, fluke play or unexpected hero to impact the results.
Bottom line is every championship is decided with 16 wins (current format) and one team celebrating. They earned the respect of the accomplishment no matter what the “story”.
Lakers earned the title of NBA Champions. Just like every champion before or after. Simple as that! |
Not like every champions before or after, we didn't get the earned home court advantage |
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deal
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | I’m extra proud of the 2020 championship. People saying Lakers won a Mickey Mouse ring are so jealous because their team lost out and couldn’t win the same Mickey Mouse ring they’re so salty about. |
Lots of teams in all sports have had specific circumstances on their
way to win a championship. Winning it all is never easy but making
excuses is.
In the end, you have to win with the hand you are dealt. Winning in the
bubble broke some players (teams) and others thrived.
Lakers have been on both sides of that equation; no excuses.
_________________
Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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