PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
governator wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
He didn’t short change the caddie. The amount was agreed to prior and Kuchar paid him in excess of that.

Now maybe some folks think the caddie should have been given more but that is different than short changing him.


Not shortchanged, what's the word for poor faith negotiation?


Poor faith? I mean, it appears that they had a good faith negotiation. He paid above what he was legally required to pay as a result of that negotiation. If anything that is good faith negotiation on the part of Kuchar.

The fill-in caddie isn't claiming violation of contract here, is he? I haven't seen that. If so, that would be short changing. It sounds like he is saying he wants to be paid what HE thinks is fair even though he never agreed to it. Would love it if I could do that after negotiating a job offer.

Also, Kuchar offered him $20K and he refused it. So I'm not sure who the arbiter of what is fair for a fill-in caddie is, but, Kuchar has every legal right to pay him at least the $4K they agreed to and nothing more. Now if they agreed to $50K, or $130K or whatever, then yeah, he needs to pony up.

The caddie should accept his poor decision, and learn for next time to get this stuff in writing and make sure your terms are clear. Negotiating after the fact is poor faith negotiating.


Common Professional Etiquette

Lack of Humility or Respect for the quality job this caddie did for him also

His tip was less than ONE TENTH OF A PERCENT of his winnings

Just a greedy ungrateful chump who will now suffer from his greed as all over greedy people do
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:07 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
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Not a good look at all for Kuchar.

Just pay the guy the regular 10%, who cares?


The regular 10% is for guys who pay their own way to travel with the golfers, not a local person who just did it for the week.

Granted his payout wasn't enough.

In a previous work life I was around PGA golfers at a handful of tournaments. Kuchar was by far the nicest guy to everyone. He was engaging and legit took time to chat with people and ask where they were from and what their background was. I'm sure he'll end up doing the right thing and throw some cash this guys way.


Yep. Also, regular caddies do all sorts of things that fill-ins don't. From examining the course structure and the little details that the golfer needs to watch out for. They know what things could pose a challenge for their golfer because they know their game. This guy doesn't know those subtle details. He couldn't. Maybe Kuchar tends to hit his low irons fat or whatever. Or perhaps that Matt likes to gamble and go for it and his usual caddie reins him in. Communication is the #1 value of a good caddie and the fill-in caddie didn't even speak English. He had to use Google translate. So basically the guy was a glorified bag holder although he probably had some insights on the course structure.

All that said, a tip is supposed to be something that its recipient doesn't expect but is grateful for, in any amount, when its received. If it's something you expect to receive, and especially in a specific amount, then that is compensation and should be agreed to by both parties. It should also be something that you're not vilified for for not giving but is viewed as praise-worthy when you do.

Would I have given more than a $1,000 bonus on top of the agreed payment for services? Yeah, I probably would have, particularly knowing this guy only makes $100 per day. But for the guy to say that only $50K or more is fair? How exactly is less than $50K for 4 days of work in which you ordinarily only make $400 unfair? Especially when you were put in an impossible position to be able to provide the same quality of service as his regular caddie? This should be a "he should have given more" reaction and nothing else. It's not and shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:50 am    Post subject:

That's why I always negotiate with my waiter before I eat the amount of tip they should be expecting.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject:

was listening to Mad Dog Radio (I think it is called on Sirius?), and they had a golf reporter on talking....he made some good points.....

- if Kuchar truly believes that is the value of the caddies job....a level of job that he was able to win a tournament with.....then he should adopt that practice every week. Just get to the club....pay one of the house caddies $3-$7K for the week. Of course the point is he does not believe that, and thus will not implement that practice.

- also pointed out that everyone even in the Tour world that is not within his most inner circle is troubled by his lack of fair payment....as is the PGA as an entity.

- finally said if the mass exposure hoped to get the caddie more money, it likely became too big of a story to accomplish that.....as Kuchar has little to gain at this point. Claimed Kuchar will be marked by this for the rest of his career....and would be even if he sent the guy $100K check at this point.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject:

Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:11 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:15 pm    Post subject:

For those saying that it was merely a contract between Matt Kuchar and the caddie, here's what the PGA tour commissioner had to say:

Quote:
"I've had multiple conversations with Matt to know how devastated he is by this,'' PGA Tour commissioner Jay Monahan told ESPN. "And candidly, how devastated I am for him that this has happened. I also know enough to know that he has been really thoughtful to know where things are at now and how to make this right, which is in the process of happening.''


If Matt Kuchar did nothing wrong, why would the PGA Tour commissioner advise him to make things right?

Also:

Quote:
Kuchar was catching plenty of abuse on social media, and perhaps most of all, no prominent PGA Tour players were coming to his defense. Those who have spoken anonymously basically shared the same sentiment: that Kuchar had done himself no favors, and that the caddie deserved more than what was paid.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.


Man, here's the story from espn:

Quote:
There was no provision for winning, but Kuchar paid Ortiz $5,000 in cash prior to leaving Mexico for a trip to Australia, where he'd also be playing in a tournament. At some point, Kuchar seemed to have second thoughts about the money he had paid to Ortiz, and according to agent Mark Steinberg, reached out to pay him more.

Along with Steinberg, they sought to find Ortiz and figure out a way to get him another $15,000. Ortiz, though, rejected the amount.

"Matt is a fairly deliberate person on all decisions that he makes,'' Steinberg said. "But he thought hard about it and felt he should pay him more. He decided to give him a bonus.

"Honestly, he wasn't expecting the response that he got, which was no, here's the number I want. For Matt, to be deliberate about it and to think about it and then to be rejected or turned down for that really caught him off guard.''


Seems like they're still trying to paint the picture of Matt as the innocent victim here.

Also, there's this funny comment by a caddie at the Genesis Open:

Quote:
PACIFIC PALISADES, Calif. — In cold, wet conditions that suspended play for seven hours at rain-soaked Riviera Country Club, Matt Kuchar never made it to the 1st tee during the first round of the Genesis Open. So, the golfer with the perma-grin gave his caddie, John Wood, the day off and instead had his son, Cameron, toting a lightweight kickstand bag back and forth from the practice range to the chipping green.

“I hope he pays his son a better allowance than he tips his caddie,” quipped a caddie on the range.


From Veteran Tour caddie Kenny Harms:

Quote:
Harms himself has played the role of fill-in caddie, at Hilton Head in 2006. He wasn’t planning to work that week when he received a call from Tour looper Steve Hulka, who told him that Aaron Baddeley needed a caddie for the RBC Heritage. Harms took the gig and Baddeley went on to win. Harms collected a cool $65,000 and said he was so grateful to Hulka for the introduction that he gifted him $5,000.

Harms recounted another story about a Tour pro who recently won the Panama Championship with a local caddie on his bag. The caddie’s cut: $10,000. “And that was a Web.com tour event,” Harms said.


Think about this. Kenny Harms, a caddie, got $65k and tipped Steve Hulka $5k, the same amount Kuchar paid Ortiz.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:18 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.


Yep.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.


Uh-huh.

Bottomline is obvious, regardless of what those claiming the criticisms of Kuchar were simply "tip shaming" say, Kuchar knows he was 100% in the wrong going in, and now regrets that it found the light of day. Kuchar went into this caddy situation diminishing the role of a guy who was there to help him win. And help him win he did, fill in caddie or not. In fact, it probably speaks more to the caddie's contribution given the lack of intimate familiarity to Matt's game. Yet Kuchar blew that off and tried to skate around well established protocol based on a technicality.

It's a really douche move when you are someone of Kuchar's income level, you get a financial windfall you haven't seen in years by winning a tournament with the help of a caddie, but you look to skirt convention and not do the right thing by compensating that caddie accordingly - especially in the instance when appropriately compensating that caddie would have made a huge difference to them but been but a blink of an eye for Kuchar.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject:

The report I read said Kuchar was going to donate an undisclosed amount to several charities also.....I was thinking those charities should not hold their breath.

Also, just curious.....did he send the guy a new $50K or the additional $45K?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.


Uh-huh.

Bottomline is obvious, regardless of what those claiming the criticisms of Kuchar were simply "tip shaming" say, Kuchar knows he was 100% in the wrong going in, and now regrets that it found the light of day. Kuchar went into this caddy situation diminishing the role of a guy who was there to help him win. And help him win he did, fill in caddie or not. In fact, it probably speaks more to the caddie's contribution given the lack of intimate familiarity to Matt's game. Yet Kuchar blew that off and tried to skate around well established protocol based on a technicality.

It's a really douche move when you are someone of Kuchar's income level, you get a financial windfall you haven't seen in years by winning a tournament with the help of a caddie, but you look to skirt convention and not do the right thing by compensating that caddie accordingly - especially in the instance when appropriately compensating that caddie would have made a huge difference to them but been but a blink of an eye for Kuchar.


I think that's where the argument from both sides are (since so far nobody has a concrete answer if the unspoken protocol of 8-10% is extended to substitute caddie)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Oh looky what we have here:

https://twitter.com/LATimesfarmer/status/1096526750933110784


Yup, have no idea how I feel about this or about Kuchar. Is it sincere or damage control?

How do you go from $2k to $15k to $50k?


Full-on damage control. No doubt about it.


Uh-huh.

Bottomline is obvious, regardless of what those claiming the criticisms of Kuchar were simply "tip shaming" say, Kuchar knows he was 100% in the wrong going in, and now regrets that it found the light of day. Kuchar went into this caddy situation diminishing the role of a guy who was there to help him win. And help him win he did, fill in caddie or not. In fact, it probably speaks more to the caddie's contribution given the lack of intimate familiarity to Matt's game. Yet Kuchar blew that off and tried to skate around well established protocol based on a technicality.

It's a really douche move when you are someone of Kuchar's income level, you get a financial windfall you haven't seen in years by winning a tournament with the help of a caddie, but you look to skirt convention and not do the right thing by compensating that caddie accordingly - especially in the instance when appropriately compensating that caddie would have made a huge difference to them but been but a blink of an eye for Kuchar.


I think that's where the argument from both sides are (since so far nobody has a concrete answer if the unspoken protocol of 8-10% is extended to substitute caddie)


The unspoken protocol is usually 10% for a win. But that is for your regular PGA Tour caddy, with some percentage used to cover travel, lodging, and other trip related expenses. And typically, these arrangements are pre-determined by the golfer and the caddy.

The instance of a fill-in, local caddy is rare which is why having a clear communication about the arrangement deals is even more important. Even Ortiz himself said he didn't think he deserved the well established protocol of 10%.

This is why, as I said before, this should have been handled BEFORE he won the big prize, not after.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject:

He coughed up the money and learned a lesson in manners and humility in the process.

I like Kuchar, but this was a rough go for him. People make mistakes and ultimately he made it right, but I do wonder if he would have if not for the negative publicity.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:03 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
He coughed up the money and learned a lesson in manners and humility in the process.

I like Kuchar, but this was a rough go for him. People make mistakes and ultimately he made it right, but I do wonder if he would have if not for the negative publicity.


no way he would have....I think the real Kuchar is $5K Kuchar.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
He coughed up the money and learned a lesson in manners and humility in the process.

I like Kuchar, but this was a rough go for him. People make mistakes and ultimately he made it right, but I do wonder if he would have if not for the negative publicity.


no way he would have....I think the real Kuchar is $5K Kuchar.


Yeah, there's no way he would have. This tournament ended iin Nov 2018. We are now in Feb 2019.

No way he would have just paid the guy. He even said it wasn't his idea to offer $15k. He was fine with offering $5k.
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