Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.
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Practice
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject:

Pippen also said that LeBron was better than Jordan a while back, so I value his opinion very little.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

MJST wrote:
LandsbergerRules wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc


Not EVEN what Kobe was doesn't sound like a compliment for Kobe or Bron.


He prefaced it by saying that LeBron wasn't what Michael(Jordan) was as a player, and then said he's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player. Essentially saying LeBron to him is behind both Jordan and Kobe.

I'm sure he still does have some bitterness to Kobe for that comeback against the Blazers that was iced by that assist to the legendary Shaq dunk

He also said that Kawhi has that in him as well.

There's nothing that crazy about what Pip is saying. Also, you gotta allow players to change their minds as they think about it more and see more stuff, so I don't hold changing opinions against Pip.

Lebron is very unusual in that he has attained a status on par with the Jordan's and Kobe's, but seemingly without the same high level of skill. I see a lot of this idea in the statements that players make about him. They didn't speak that way about Jordan and Kobe. THere's this idea with players when they consider Lebron that they are better than him, or other great players are better than him (in a 1on1 sense). It's an offensive thought to a lot of people and the NBA fraternity, which is why they say it in more subtle ways.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
Pippen also said that LeBron was better than Jordan a while back, so I value his opinion very little.

We all have a right to an opinion, but again, just because he changes his mind or says different things, doesn't mean he is not a reliable source of information. Pippen is a pretty serious and thoughtful guy, always has been, with basketball. He has a history of providing valuable insight about basketball and the NBA, and about MJ and the Bulls. Remember, he's not a fanboy like us; he is coming from a very different perspective than fans. He is also not always going to say what he is thinking on camera. It's complicated.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:54 pm    Post subject:

Half the people commenting have never watched Scottie play a live game...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject:

I find that he goes back and forth on this. He did back-handedly take a shot at Kobe with the “not even” part, suggesting Kobe’s not remotely close to MJ
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:30 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Half the people commenting have never watched Scottie play a live game...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Half the people commenting have never watched Scottie play a live game...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject:

Darth Los Angeles wrote:
Half the people commenting have never watched Scottie play a live game...



I just came back to quote unquote that quote.

And now back into the ether...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject:

hcbball wrote:
Practice wrote:
Pippen also said that LeBron was better than Jordan a while back, so I value his opinion very little.

We all have a right to an opinion, but again, just because he changes his mind or says different things, doesn't mean he is not a reliable source of information. Pippen is a pretty serious and thoughtful guy, always has been, with basketball. He has a history of providing valuable insight about basketball and the NBA, and about MJ and the Bulls. Remember, he's not a fanboy like us; he is coming from a very different perspective than fans. He is also not always going to say what he is thinking on camera. It's complicated.


I've found Pippen to be a bitter, unhappy soul. Whenever he wasn't playing with Jordan, his career was problematic, from the Kukoc incident to his year with Hakeem and Barkley, to his time with the Blazers, to his awkward return to the Bulls. He had a reputation for being prickly and hard to get along with. He blew a lot of his money through ignorance and by trusting the wrong people. Later, he sued a bunch of people for saying he was bankrupt. Apparently he wasn't, but he still lost. These days, he pops up in the media from time to time making snippy comments about other players. A few years back, he announced that he wanted to be a head coach, and no one took the bait.

I'm sorry that he never seems to have found much joy in life. He occupies an odd niche in NBA history -- the greatest sidekick of all time. But I sure don't see him as a guy who has a history of providing valuable insight about basketball or the NBA.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

drae wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...

Well, that's what he always looks like to me... a football player playing basketball. Look, Lebron is an incredible athlete who knows how to play basketball well and has some good level of skills... so I'm not knocking him... but at the same time, there is no way you can equate his skills to MJ/Kobe even if has developed them since entering the league... because his "go-to" move AFAIC is to barge around and through people. If we don't acknowledge it's his athleticism that has got him to where he is more than his skills... and don't acknowledge that MJ/Kobe were clearly more naturally skilled/talented and therefore, were more clutch/killer/whatever people want to call it... then we're doing them an injustice, no? Anyway, I value their type of natural skills more than Lebron's athletic abilities or the size of Kareem/Wilt/Shaq or the point guard abilities of Magic... so MJ/Kobe will always be top of the "best player" heap for me personally.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

LAL1947 wrote:
drae wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...

Well, that's what he always looks like to me... a football player playing basketball. Look, Lebron is an incredible athlete who knows how to play basketball well and has some good level of skills... so I'm not knocking him... but at the same time, there is no way you can equate his skills to MJ/Kobe even if has developed them since entering the league... because his "go-to" move AFAIC is to barge around and through people. If we don't acknowledge it's his athleticism that has got him to where he is more than his skills... and don't acknowledge that MJ/Kobe were clearly more naturally skilled/talented and therefore, were more clutch/killer/whatever people want to call it... then we're doing them an injustice, no? Anyway, I value their type of natural skills more than Lebron's athletic abilities or the size of Kareem/Wilt/Shaq or the point guard abilities of Magic... so MJ/Kobe will always be top of the "best player" heap for me personally.

I mean, he's going to finish, at worst, third all-time in scoring and will soon be top 10 in assists. So all of that is primarily because of his athleticism? Interesting.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

LAL1947 wrote:
He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer.


I have to disagree here. Lebron doesn't have the hero ball mentality of those two. He's shown a willingness to let other guys be the hero if he thinks they have a mismatch which is something neither Kobe or Jordan ever really showed. I think it's debatable which of those is preferable. If I need one guy of those three to make a shot, it's going to be Jordan, followed by Kobe, followed by Lebron because they have that attitude and shot making ability. If I'm going to trust one of those three to find the open man in that situation I would go with Lebron, followed by Jordan, followed by Kobe.

Lebron's best post-seasons:

08-09 (14 games) 35.3 points (51% fg, 33.3% 3P, 74.9% ft), 9.1 rebounds, 7.3 assists, 1.6 steals, 0.9 blocks in 41.4 minutes
17-18 (22 games) 34 points (53.9% fg, 34.2% 3p, 74.6% ft), 9.1 rebounds, 9 assists, 1.4 steals, 1 blocks in 41.9 minutes
16-17 (18 games) 32.8 points (56.5% fg, 41.1% 3p, 69.8% ft), 9.1 rebounds, 7.8 assists, 1.9 steals, 1.3 blocks in 41.3 minutes
05-06 (13 games) 30.8 points (47.6% fg, 33.3% 3p, 73.7% ft), 8.1 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.4 steals, 0.7 blocks in 46.5 minutes
11-12 (23 games) 30.3 points (50% fg, 25.9% 3p, 73.9% ft), 9.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists,1.9 steals, 0.7 blocks in 42.7 minutes
14-15 (20 games) 30.1 points (41.7% fg, 22.7% 3p, 73.1% ft), 11.3 rebounds, 8.5 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.1 blocks in 42.2 minutes

Kobe's best post-seasons:

06-07 (5 games) 32.8 points (46.2% fg, 35.7% 3p, 91.9% ft), 5.2 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 1 steal, 0.4 blocks in 43 minutes
02-03 (12 games) 32.1 points (43.2% fg, 40.3% 3p, 82.7% ft), 5.1 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.1 blocks in 44.3 minutes
08-09 (23 games) 30.2 points (45.7% fg, 34.9% 3p, 88.3% ft), 5.3 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.9 blocks in 40.9 minutes
07-08 (21 games) 30.1 points (47.9% fg, 30.2% 3p, 80.9% ft), 5.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.4 blocks in 41.1 minutes
11-12 (12 games) 30 points (43.9% fg, 28.3% 3p, 83.2% ft), 4.8 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.2 blocks in 39.7 minutes

What I find ironic is that people criticize Lebron for a lack of killer instinct and generally feel that Kobe was the better scorer and clutch performer. Yet when you look at the respective careers of the two guys Lebron had better clutch stats, and he equalled or surpassed Kobe's best scoring playoff season three times in his career, and each time with significantly better non-scoring stats.

That's certainly not meant to discredit Kobe. He was the best player of his era, the only other guys who really can make a case for are Shaq and Duncan. But aside from his finals meltdown in his first season with the Heat Lebron has been a dominant figure in the post-season. At this stage of their careers Kobe has one important edge on Lebron: Rings. That's really it. Probably at his peak defense, Kobe was a shut down defender early in his career. But Lebron also had a very nice defensive run midway through his career. If I had to pick one of the two I probably go with Kobe over the entirety of his career, but it isn't a slam dunk. Kobe may have been more skilled, but he was also more flawed. He didn't always hit the open man, he wasn't always the best teammate. He rarely allowed a teammate to shine in big moments after the first title, always trusting himself more than his teammates.

I guess the real question on Kobe vs. Lebron is what was Kobe actually better at. The discussion should start there. Making difficult shots certainly, but is taking those difficult shots rather than finding the open man really a positive? We can give him defense and tough shot making, I'm not sure what else.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

Judah wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
drae wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...

Well, that's what he always looks like to me... a football player playing basketball. Look, Lebron is an incredible athlete who knows how to play basketball well and has some good level of skills... so I'm not knocking him... but at the same time, there is no way you can equate his skills to MJ/Kobe even if has developed them since entering the league... because his "go-to" move AFAIC is to barge around and through people. If we don't acknowledge it's his athleticism that has got him to where he is more than his skills... and don't acknowledge that MJ/Kobe were clearly more naturally skilled/talented and therefore, were more clutch/killer/whatever people want to call it... then we're doing them an injustice, no? Anyway, I value their type of natural skills more than Lebron's athletic abilities or the size of Kareem/Wilt/Shaq or the point guard abilities of Magic... so MJ/Kobe will always be top of the "best player" heap for me personally.

I mean, he's going to finish, at worst, third all-time in scoring and will soon be top 10 in assists. So all of that is primarily because of his athleticism? Interesting.

Yup. It's not like I'm saying the rest of his abilities are those of a scrub. What I'm saying is... if we acknowledge just how much of a special athlete the guy is, and rightly so.... then we cannot at the same time put his skills at the same level as MJ/Kobe. That would be unfair to them simply because this is an area where I think those two were just as far ahead of almost everyone else, as Lebron was in terms of his combination of size/athleticism/speed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:11 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

J.C. Smith wrote:
I guess the real question on Kobe vs. Lebron is what was Kobe actually better at. The discussion should start there. Making difficult shots certainly, but is taking those difficult shots rather than finding the open man really a positive? We can give him defense and tough shot making, I'm not sure what else.

If it's all right with ya, I'm only quoting this bit here because I don't want to get into a stats debate and want to answer this question only since it relates to the point I'm trying to make.

What was Kobe better at? From an attacking skills perspective, almost everything! Shooting from all ranges and free throws... ball handling and dribbling through crowded defenses... footwork and other movements with the ball like spins, fakes... his hang-time... movement off the ball, etc. It's almost as if you think that "tough shot making" is not the end-result of owning a varied set of skills that allowed him to take and make a tough shot against any player and in any scenario... but a particular skill in itself... so you skip past all the natural skills Kobe possessed to arrive at the "tough shot making". This is what I mean when I say that MJ/Kobe's skills are not being given their due credit. Those two guys were literally the total package as bball players, to me at least. What are Lebron's attacking skills other than using size/speed to 1) Drive past players from outside for a lay-up/dunk... 2) Back up against players in the post... and 3) Put up some long-range threes every now and then? If he had skills like MJ/Kobe, he'd play more "hero ball" too... but he doesn't, so he chooses to be more of a facilitator... which is not a bad thing btw, since it requires intelligence and self-awareness to make this choice.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

drae wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...


Playing multiple sports growing up helps you......

Kobe and Team Euro and Nash benefited tremendously being futbol players as young kids.

You could say imagine if Kobe lived in the states rather than Italy growing up, how much he would of been better.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

J.C. Smith wrote:
.


Interestingly enough there was a reddit post that broke down Kobe's clutch stats in the Finals vs LeBron's (could have been playoffs too but I think it was the finals)

And what it showed was that Kobe was overwhelmingly better in that category.

So in terms of clutch stats during the season LeBron seemed to have an edge, but in the Finals/playoffs in terms of clutch it seemed Kobe had the edge, and I guess that's the kind of thing that comes into why LeBron's Finals record is what it is. And why those moments like "passing the ball when Steph is guarding you" in the final moments comes into fruition.

Now if you compare LeBron's numbers in the clutch vs KDs in the Finals, I'm going to guess that he'd be pretty far ahead as well.

All and all however, when the "clutch stats" of the playoffs(or just the finals) came up, Kobe pulled ahead of LeBron, and that's likely one of the reasons Kobe is 5-2 in the Finals and LeBron is 3-6(1-4 in his last 5).

Also when it comes to Kobe's post seasons, as I remember it, it was a part of Phil's scheme he had Kobe take a backseat in the Finals to Shaq primarily to take advantage of the matchups against the Eastern Centers, and that was where Kobe sacrificed most of his stats. Phil went to Kobe to get through the West, and then the ball shifted primarily to Shaq to get through the East and their inferior centers. But that could be just how I remember it, I'd need to go into the stats to find out.


But when it comes to the all-time numbers, you have to answer the question of if your numbers matter if your team ultimately loses.

Because if were to put Wilt's post-season stats against LeBron's there is absolutely no way LeBron's numbers compare. But he lost to Bill Russell in the Finals in a lot of those and out of them all only has 2 Championships.

If that kind of stuff doesn't matter when it comes to stats, than Wilt would finish ahead of LeBron I'd assume.

That's why it's not an exact science.

For the same reasons if you threw in Jordan's best Playoff appearances, it would surpass what James was putting up too, but it'd be very impressive considering Jordan was playing the 2, just how many rebounds and assists he was getting and how better he was on defense.

But again, if you put Wilt's up against Jordan's, he'd trump his too. So it's not an exact science.


End of the day however, I'll need to find that thread so that I can post Kobe vs LeBron post-season clutch stats, it was either post-season or Finals, but he did pull ahead of LeBron there.

=====================


But to me, the biggest argument against Kobe vs LeBron, or Jordan vs LeBron, or Kareem vs LeBron, or even Magic or Duncan vs LeBron when it comes to your greatness or how it's perceived. LeBron needs asterisk's next to every Finals loss he has in order to legitimize his legacy in that regard.

Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Bird do not. And to me, that's the biggest knock.

Even the Finals where KD and the Warriors beat him 4-1, and instead of giving KD credit the media made it out to be an insurmountable mountain. If this was just the media it wouldn't matter, but LBJ feeds into the same rhetoric to protect himself. And the 'cast' at the end of the Finals last year in his attempt to take credit from being beat 4-0 was cringeworthy.

But back to when they got beat 4-1. The way they say it you'd imagine that the Warriors were just all putting up 30 and LeBron was all by himself. In reality it looked like this



KD: 35.2 / 8.2 / 5.4 1.6 BLK 1.0 STL 55.6% FG 47.4% Three 92.7% FT
LeBron: 33.6 / 12 / 10 1.0 BLK 1.4 STL 56.4% FG 38.7 Three 64.9% FT

Kyrie: 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT
Steph: 26.8 / 8.0 / 9.4 2.2 STL 44% FG 38.8% Three 89.7 FT

Love: 16.0 / 11.2 /1.0 1.0 BLK 2.2 STL 38.8% FG 38.7% Three 80.0% FT
Klay: 16.4 / 4.8 / 2.2 0.2 BLK 0.4 STL 42.9 FG 42.5% Three 71.4% FT


Draymond: 11 / 10 / 4.8 1.6 STL 0.6 BLK 34.5% FG 28.0% Three 66.7 FT%
Smith: 11.8 / 1.6 / 0.4 0.6 STL 0.4 BLK 54.1% FG 58.1% Three 33.3% FT%(took 3)


Imagine putting up 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT, and getting portrayed like you didn't do squat.. or was the problem. Now you know why Kyrie wanted out of that environment.

But again, when you map out the stats like that, it doesn't seem as insurmountable, it's just another team that coulc match how stacked LeBron's teams usually were beat his team. That's all. When you lay out the stats like that it becomes very apparent how much help LeBron actually did have. But in order to legitimize his legacy they need to pretend that didn't happen, need to pretend that LBJ was just with a bunch of scrubs, and take complete credit away from what KD and the Warriors did.


When the Lakers got swept by the Bad Boy Pistons, I didn't hear anyone saying the Pistons didn't deserve it because Magic, Byron etc were injured before the series even started. They were undefeated before that series, the injuries were obviously a factor! Detroit's Ring doesn't count.

When the Bulls beat the Lakers in 91 I didn't hear anyone going, yeah but the Lakers were playing through injury so that doesn't count.

When The Lakers lost in 04 I didn't hear "yeah but Karl Malone had been hurt and wasn't 100% so it doesn't count."

When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 07 I didn't hear "Yeah but Kobe didn't have Bynum or Ariza. So this doesn't count."

Know why? Because they didn't need asterisks or "yeah but..." when they lost in the Finals to protect their legacy. LeBron on the other hand..always does. And THAT is the tipping point for me when I compare him.


TL;DR: Just skip if you're this.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

LAL1947 wrote:
What was Kobe better at? From an attacking skills perspective, almost everything! Shooting from all ranges and free throws...


Mid-range and free throws for sure. From mid-range and free throws for sure. Not from three point though. Lebron has shot at higher percentage than Kobe from three and at the rim by a wide margin, as well as in True Shooting %.

LAL1947 wrote:
It's almost as if you think that "tough shot making" is not the end-result of owning a varied set of skills that allowed him to take and make a tough shot against any player and in any scenario...


Nobody is doubting Kobe's skill set, or his work ethic. But the end result has been less of the end result that Lebron has given in his career. Lebron's physical advantages play a part in that. The reality though is that most metrics favor Lebron over him.

MJST wrote:
Interestingly enough there was a reddit post that broke down Kobe's clutch stats in the Finals vs LeBron's (could have been playoffs too but I think it was the finals)


I'm not familiar with that one. But there is a good analysis from 2012 here: https://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

Pretty sure 82games had a comprehensive comparison a few years back as well, but I couldn't find it in a quick search and don't have time at the moment to look deeper. Always curious to read any data though.
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Jesusdelonla
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

MJST wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
.


Interestingly enough there was a reddit post that broke down Kobe's clutch stats in the Finals vs LeBron's (could have been playoffs too but I think it was the finals)

And what it showed was that Kobe was overwhelmingly better in that category.

So in terms of clutch stats during the season LeBron seemed to have an edge, but in the Finals/playoffs in terms of clutch it seemed Kobe had the edge, and I guess that's the kind of thing that comes into why LeBron's Finals record is what it is. And why those moments like "passing the ball when Steph is guarding you" in the final moments comes into fruition.

Now if you compare LeBron's numbers in the clutch vs KDs in the Finals, I'm going to guess that he'd be pretty far ahead as well.

All and all however, when the "clutch stats" of the playoffs(or just the finals) came up, Kobe pulled ahead of LeBron, and that's likely one of the reasons Kobe is 5-2 in the Finals and LeBron is 3-6(1-4 in his last 5).

Also when it comes to Kobe's post seasons, as I remember it, it was a part of Phil's scheme he had Kobe take a backseat in the Finals to Shaq primarily to take advantage of the matchups against the Eastern Centers, and that was where Kobe sacrificed most of his stats. Phil went to Kobe to get through the West, and then the ball shifted primarily to Shaq to get through the East and their inferior centers. But that could be just how I remember it, I'd need to go into the stats to find out.


But when it comes to the all-time numbers, you have to answer the question of if your numbers matter if your team ultimately loses.

Because if were to put Wilt's post-season stats against LeBron's there is absolutely no way LeBron's numbers compare. But he lost to Bill Russell in the Finals in a lot of those and out of them all only has 2 Championships.

If that kind of stuff doesn't matter when it comes to stats, than Wilt would finish ahead of LeBron I'd assume.

That's why it's not an exact science.

For the same reasons if you threw in Jordan's best Playoff appearances, it would surpass what James was putting up too, but it'd be very impressive considering Jordan was playing the 2, just how many rebounds and assists he was getting and how better he was on defense.

But again, if you put Wilt's up against Jordan's, he'd trump his too. So it's not an exact science.


End of the day however, I'll need to find that thread so that I can post Kobe vs LeBron post-season clutch stats, it was either post-season or Finals, but he did pull ahead of LeBron there.

=====================


But to me, the biggest argument against Kobe vs LeBron, or Jordan vs LeBron, or Kareem vs LeBron, or even Magic or Duncan vs LeBron when it comes to your greatness or how it's perceived. LeBron needs asterisk's next to every Finals loss he has in order to legitimize his legacy in that regard.

Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Bird do not. And to me, that's the biggest knock.

Even the Finals where KD and the Warriors beat him 4-1, and instead of giving KD credit the media made it out to be an insurmountable mountain. If this was just the media it wouldn't matter, but LBJ feeds into the same rhetoric to protect himself. And the 'cast' at the end of the Finals last year in his attempt to take credit from being beat 4-0 was cringeworthy.

But back to when they got beat 4-1. The way they say it you'd imagine that the Warriors were just all putting up 30 and LeBron was all by himself. In reality it looked like this



KD: 35.2 / 8.2 / 5.4 1.6 BLK 1.0 STL 55.6% FG 47.4% Three 92.7% FT
LeBron: 33.6 / 12 / 10 1.0 BLK 1.4 STL 56.4% FG 38.7 Three 64.9% FT

Kyrie: 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT
Steph: 26.8 / 8.0 / 9.4 2.2 STL 44% FG 38.8% Three 89.7 FT

Love: 16.0 / 11.2 /1.0 1.0 BLK 2.2 STL 38.8% FG 38.7% Three 80.0% FT
Klay: 16.4 / 4.8 / 2.2 0.2 BLK 0.4 STL 42.9 FG 42.5% Three 71.4% FT


Draymond: 11 / 10 / 4.8 1.6 STL 0.6 BLK 34.5% FG 28.0% Three 66.7 FT%
Smith: 11.8 / 1.6 / 0.4 0.6 STL 0.4 BLK 54.1% FG 58.1% Three 33.3% FT%(took 3)


Imagine putting up 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT, and getting portrayed like you didn't do squat.. or was the problem. Now you know why Kyrie wanted out of that environment.

But again, when you map out the stats like that, it doesn't seem as insurmountable, it's just another team that coulc match how stacked LeBron's teams usually were beat his team. That's all. When you lay out the stats like that it becomes very apparent how much help LeBron actually did have. But in order to legitimize his legacy they need to pretend that didn't happen, need to pretend that LBJ was just with a bunch of scrubs, and take complete credit away from what KD and the Warriors did.


When the Lakers got swept by the Bad Boy Pistons, I didn't hear anyone saying the Pistons didn't deserve it because Magic, Byron etc were injured before the series even started. They were undefeated before that series, the injuries were obviously a factor! Detroit's Ring doesn't count.

When the Bulls beat the Lakers in 91 I didn't hear anyone going, yeah but the Lakers were playing through injury so that doesn't count.

When The Lakers lost in 04 I didn't hear "yeah but Karl Malone had been hurt and wasn't 100% so it doesn't count."

When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 07 I didn't hear "Yeah but Kobe didn't have Bynum or Ariza. So this doesn't count."

Know why? Because they didn't need asterisks or "yeah but..." when they lost in the Finals to protect their legacy. LeBron on the other hand..always does. And THAT is the tipping point for me when I compare him.


TL;DR: Just skip if you're this.


I'll give $1 to everybody who read the entire post without skipping a single word?

Pm me
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Scottie has difficulty completing a thought, I wouldn't put too much weight into his opinions.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

Jesusdelonla wrote:
MJST wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
.


Interestingly enough there was a reddit post that broke down Kobe's clutch stats in the Finals vs LeBron's (could have been playoffs too but I think it was the finals)

And what it showed was that Kobe was overwhelmingly better in that category.

So in terms of clutch stats during the season LeBron seemed to have an edge, but in the Finals/playoffs in terms of clutch it seemed Kobe had the edge, and I guess that's the kind of thing that comes into why LeBron's Finals record is what it is. And why those moments like "passing the ball when Steph is guarding you" in the final moments comes into fruition.

Now if you compare LeBron's numbers in the clutch vs KDs in the Finals, I'm going to guess that he'd be pretty far ahead as well.

All and all however, when the "clutch stats" of the playoffs(or just the finals) came up, Kobe pulled ahead of LeBron, and that's likely one of the reasons Kobe is 5-2 in the Finals and LeBron is 3-6(1-4 in his last 5).

Also when it comes to Kobe's post seasons, as I remember it, it was a part of Phil's scheme he had Kobe take a backseat in the Finals to Shaq primarily to take advantage of the matchups against the Eastern Centers, and that was where Kobe sacrificed most of his stats. Phil went to Kobe to get through the West, and then the ball shifted primarily to Shaq to get through the East and their inferior centers. But that could be just how I remember it, I'd need to go into the stats to find out.


But when it comes to the all-time numbers, you have to answer the question of if your numbers matter if your team ultimately loses.

Because if were to put Wilt's post-season stats against LeBron's there is absolutely no way LeBron's numbers compare. But he lost to Bill Russell in the Finals in a lot of those and out of them all only has 2 Championships.

If that kind of stuff doesn't matter when it comes to stats, than Wilt would finish ahead of LeBron I'd assume.

That's why it's not an exact science.

For the same reasons if you threw in Jordan's best Playoff appearances, it would surpass what James was putting up too, but it'd be very impressive considering Jordan was playing the 2, just how many rebounds and assists he was getting and how better he was on defense.

But again, if you put Wilt's up against Jordan's, he'd trump his too. So it's not an exact science.


End of the day however, I'll need to find that thread so that I can post Kobe vs LeBron post-season clutch stats, it was either post-season or Finals, but he did pull ahead of LeBron there.

=====================


But to me, the biggest argument against Kobe vs LeBron, or Jordan vs LeBron, or Kareem vs LeBron, or even Magic or Duncan vs LeBron when it comes to your greatness or how it's perceived. LeBron needs asterisk's next to every Finals loss he has in order to legitimize his legacy in that regard.

Kareem, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Duncan, Bird do not. And to me, that's the biggest knock.

Even the Finals where KD and the Warriors beat him 4-1, and instead of giving KD credit the media made it out to be an insurmountable mountain. If this was just the media it wouldn't matter, but LBJ feeds into the same rhetoric to protect himself. And the 'cast' at the end of the Finals last year in his attempt to take credit from being beat 4-0 was cringeworthy.

But back to when they got beat 4-1. The way they say it you'd imagine that the Warriors were just all putting up 30 and LeBron was all by himself. In reality it looked like this



KD: 35.2 / 8.2 / 5.4 1.6 BLK 1.0 STL 55.6% FG 47.4% Three 92.7% FT
LeBron: 33.6 / 12 / 10 1.0 BLK 1.4 STL 56.4% FG 38.7 Three 64.9% FT

Kyrie: 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT
Steph: 26.8 / 8.0 / 9.4 2.2 STL 44% FG 38.8% Three 89.7 FT

Love: 16.0 / 11.2 /1.0 1.0 BLK 2.2 STL 38.8% FG 38.7% Three 80.0% FT
Klay: 16.4 / 4.8 / 2.2 0.2 BLK 0.4 STL 42.9 FG 42.5% Three 71.4% FT


Draymond: 11 / 10 / 4.8 1.6 STL 0.6 BLK 34.5% FG 28.0% Three 66.7 FT%
Smith: 11.8 / 1.6 / 0.4 0.6 STL 0.4 BLK 54.1% FG 58.1% Three 33.3% FT%(took 3)


Imagine putting up 29.4 / 4.0 / 4.4 1.0 STL 47.2% FG 41.9% Three 90% FT, and getting portrayed like you didn't do squat.. or was the problem. Now you know why Kyrie wanted out of that environment.

But again, when you map out the stats like that, it doesn't seem as insurmountable, it's just another team that coulc match how stacked LeBron's teams usually were beat his team. That's all. When you lay out the stats like that it becomes very apparent how much help LeBron actually did have. But in order to legitimize his legacy they need to pretend that didn't happen, need to pretend that LBJ was just with a bunch of scrubs, and take complete credit away from what KD and the Warriors did.


When the Lakers got swept by the Bad Boy Pistons, I didn't hear anyone saying the Pistons didn't deserve it because Magic, Byron etc were injured before the series even started. They were undefeated before that series, the injuries were obviously a factor! Detroit's Ring doesn't count.

When the Bulls beat the Lakers in 91 I didn't hear anyone going, yeah but the Lakers were playing through injury so that doesn't count.

When The Lakers lost in 04 I didn't hear "yeah but Karl Malone had been hurt and wasn't 100% so it doesn't count."

When the Celtics beat the Lakers in 07 I didn't hear "Yeah but Kobe didn't have Bynum or Ariza. So this doesn't count."

Know why? Because they didn't need asterisks or "yeah but..." when they lost in the Finals to protect their legacy. LeBron on the other hand..always does. And THAT is the tipping point for me when I compare him.


TL;DR: Just skip if you're this.


I'll give $1 to everybody who read the entire post without skipping a single word?

Pm me


This many words is equivalent to about 1500 VLF posts.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Scottie Pippen: LeBron's not even what Kobe Bryant was as a player.

LAL1947 wrote:
drae wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
MJST wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmjY6vaYovc

He's not wrong.

AFAIC, Lebron just doesn't have the same natural skills/talent that MJ and Kobe did. If he had the same level of skills, then he'd automatically have developed the mentality of being "more of a killer" or an "assassin" over time. But Lebron doesn't and he knows it too, which is why he chooses to be more of a facilitator instead of a natural scorer. It's like when you have two top players on the same team... both have the same mentality while one has better natural skills/talent than the other... then that person will become the go-to guy for the clutch shots and his team mate will automatically defer to him too.


James was an all-state receiver as a sophomore and junior, setting records that still stand. He gave up football as a senior to become a multimillion-dollar, teenage basketball corporation.

http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/news/story?id=5360552

Lebron was and is an incredible athlete who played multiple sports. He lacked a few skills coming into the pros which he developed later. His shooting, for example, is miles ahead of what it used to be. If he focused solely on basketball as a youngster...

Well, that's what he always looks like to me... a football player playing basketball. Look, Lebron is an incredible athlete who knows how to play basketball well and has some good level of skills... so I'm not knocking him... but at the same time, there is no way you can equate his skills to MJ/Kobe even if has developed them since entering the league... because his "go-to" move AFAIC is to barge around and through people. If we don't acknowledge it's his athleticism that has got him to where he is more than his skills... and don't acknowledge that MJ/Kobe were clearly more naturally skilled/talented and therefore, were more clutch/killer/whatever people want to call it... then we're doing them an injustice, no? Anyway, I value their type of natural skills more than Lebron's athletic abilities or the size of Kareem/Wilt/Shaq or the point guard abilities of Magic... so MJ/Kobe will always be top of the "best player" heap for me personally.




Agreed. I've said all along that lebron is like Karl Malone mixed with a little Shaq. There's no fluidity in his game at all, it's just brute strength. Actually, it's rather boring to watch just like it was kind of boring to watch Malone play. Kobe and MJ's footwork and post games were light years ahead of lebrons. In fact, lebron doesn't really have a post game or a go to move. We really need to stop comparing these 3 players because only Kobe compares to MJ. lebron is not the same type of player, mentally or physically as those two.
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