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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
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Location: La La Land
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 Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | governator wrote: | | You think Trump fueling white identity politics which in turn rile up the left identity politics which turn off moderate... white moderate? any stats/poll? (I think Trump did better than expected on latino voters but worse with asian voters?. Black voters are solid anti-Trump) |
You're thinking purely in terms of race. There are other aspects to identity politics -- gender, sexual orientation and identity, region, and nationality (which overlaps with race in some, but not all, respects). Trump knows that elements of the left will call any white person a white supremacist (it used to be "racist," but people started blocking that out, so they had to raise the ante) at the drop of a hat. Likewise, they will call any man, especially an older white man, a sexist homophobe at the drop of a hat. Finally, they tend to be urban, and so they will vilify from non-urban areas, especially the south and central states. The more that he can goad those elements of the left to scream insults at white people, men, and people from red and purple states, the more it benefits him.
Consider the recent AOC-Pelosi flap. AOC and the Squad suggest that Pelosi is racist, which is what people like AOC do. The Democrats start to rally around Pelosi. So Trump issues a masterstroke -- he jumps in and defends Pelosi and attacks the Squad. This means that the Democrats are forced to change course and rally around AOC and the Squad. Trump would just love for AOC and the Squad to be the faces of the Democratic Party.
Remember that the 2020 election will not present a "Yes/No" choice next to Trump's name. It will be Trump vs. some Democrat. To the extent that the Democrat has a bunch of wingnut baggage attached (Green New Deal, reparations, or whatever), Trump's chances of winning go up. Likewise, he would love to be running against a Muslim transgender lesbian from San Francisco. If he doesn't get those wishes, then he wants the identity politicians of the left to be as noisy and empowered as possible. |
Name a prominent Democrat who calls "any white person a white supremacist". Name a prominent Democrat who " will call any man, especially an older white man, a sexist homophobe". 2 of the top 4 Dems running are old white men.
That crazy radical AOC teamed up with an old white male Bernie Sanders to make a resolution to address climate change. Some of your comments remind me of Ben Shapiro.
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Last edited by kikanga on Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
AH is a Republican turned Democrat and if ringfinger is a Democrat, he doesn't banter like one. We tend to like data, facts and objective analysis and use these as tools to form AND SUPPORT an opinion. I'll leave it at that lest I might violate the rules.
And saying Democrats (or at least DMR) (and now, likely myself) are the ones who live in a bubble????? Y-O-U-'-V-E - G O T - T O - B E - K I D D I N G
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | governator wrote: | | You think Trump fueling white identity politics which in turn rile up the left identity politics which turn off moderate... white moderate? any stats/poll? (I think Trump did better than expected on latino voters but worse with asian voters?. Black voters are solid anti-Trump) |
You're thinking purely in terms of race. There are other aspects to identity politics -- gender, sexual orientation and identity, region, and nationality (which overlaps with race in some, but not all, respects). Trump knows that elements of the left will call any white person a white supremacist (it used to be "racist," but people started blocking that out, so they had to raise the ante) at the drop of a hat. Likewise, they will call any man, especially an older white man, a sexist homophobe at the drop of a hat. Finally, they tend to be urban, and so they will vilify from non-urban areas, especially the south and central states. The more that he can goad those elements of the left to scream insults at white people, men, and people from red and purple states, the more it benefits him.
Consider the recent AOC-Pelosi flap. AOC and the Squad suggest that Pelosi is racist, which is what people like AOC do. The Democrats start to rally around Pelosi. So Trump issues a masterstroke -- he jumps in and defends Pelosi and attacks the Squad. This means that the Democrats are forced to change course and rally around AOC and the Squad. Trump would just love for AOC and the Squad to be the faces of the Democratic Party.
Remember that the 2020 election will not present a "Yes/No" choice next to Trump's name. It will be Trump vs. some Democrat. To the extent that the Democrat has a bunch of wingnut baggage attached (Green New Deal, reparations, or whatever), Trump's chances of winning go up. Likewise, he would love to be running against a Muslim transgender lesbian from San Francisco. If he doesn't get those wishes, then he wants the identity politicians of the left to be as noisy and empowered as possible. |
Name a prominent Democrat who calls "any white person a white supremacist". Name a prominent Democrat who " will call any man, especially an older white man, a sexist homophobe". 2 of the top 4 Dems running are old white men.
That crazy radical AOC teamed up with an old white male Bernie Sanders to make a resolution to address climate change. Some of your comments remind me of Ben Shapiro. |
On your first point, you did not quote the entire sentence, and therefore you removed my comment from its context and basically whiffed on the subject. On your second point, climate change is not identity politics, unless you are an iceberg or something. On your third point, I think you are attempting some sort of ad hominem, but offhand I'm not familiar with Ben Shapiro, so your apparent taunt missed the target.
I shouldn't have used Trump to illustrate how the axes of current politics work. It was inevitable that this would get into the subject matter of The Political Thread. My bad. I'll leave you with some comments Maureen Dowd made after the recent AOC-Pelosi row:
| Quote: | | AOC should consider the possibility that people who disagree with her do not disagree with her color. |
| Quote: | And then there’s the real instigator, Saikat Chakrabarti, AOC’s 33-year-old chief of staff, who co-founded Justice Democrats and Brand New Congress, both of which recruited progressives — including AOC — to run against moderates in Democratic primaries. The former Silicon Valley Bernie Bro assumed he could apply Facebook’s mantra, “Move fast and break things,” to one of the oldest institutions in the country.
But Congress is not a place where you achieve radical progress — certainly not in divided government. It’s a place where you work at it and work at it and don’t get everything you want.
The progressives act as though anyone who dares disagree with them is bad. Not wrong, but bad, guilty of some human failing, some impurity that is a moral evil that justifies their venom.
Chakrabarti sent shock waves through the Democratic caucus when he posted a tweet about the border bill comparing moderate and Blue Dog Democrats — some of whom are black — to Southern segregationists in the ’40s. |
| Quote: | | In the age of Trump, there is no more stupid proposition than that Nancy Pelosi is the problem. If AOC and her Pygmalions and acolytes decide that burning down the House is more important than deposing Trump, they will be left with a racist backward president and the emotional satisfaction of their own purity. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
AH is a Republican turned Democrat and if ringfinger is a Democrat, he doesn't banter like one. We tend to like data, facts and objective analysis and use these as tools to form AND SUPPORT an opinion. I'll leave it at that lest I might violate the rules.
And saying Democrats (or at least DMR) (and now, likely myself) are the ones who live in a bubble????? Y-O-U-'-V-E - G O T - T O - B E - K I D D I N G |
Rf has all the markings of someone who masquerades as a Democrat under the mistaken assumption that it will give the appearance of being more credible when he criticizes the party. It's the fact I don't live in a bubble that makes it easy to spot.
And clearly I am not the only one who can see through his masquerade.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
What’s funny is that no one really knows my political beliefs. They only know i’m not an identitarian and that I hate woke culture. Based on that, I am somehow a conservative.
It is hilarious and sad how the woke contest culture is destroying the party and soon it will be down to only people who bow down to the squad. |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
What’s funny is that no one really knows my political beliefs. They only know i’m not an identitarian and that I hate woke culture. Based on that, I am somehow a conservative.
It is hilarious and sad how the woke contest culture is destroying the party and soon it will be down to only people who bow down to the squad. |
So from a post in the politics thread:
| Quote: | | I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? |
Do you think it is wrong to call someone by a name or label they prefer?
Do you care if you offend someone?
Do you use the "n" word, and why?
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
What’s funny is that no one really knows my political beliefs. They only know i’m not an identitarian and that I hate woke culture. Based on that, I am somehow a conservative.
It is hilarious and sad how the woke contest culture is destroying the party and soon it will be down to only people who bow down to the squad. |
So from a post in the politics thread:
| Quote: | | I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? |
Do you think it is wrong to call someone by a name or label they prefer?
Do you care if you offend someone?
Do you use the "n" word, and why? |
None of these things have anything to do with politics.
Are you telling me that Democrats don’t call people by names or labels they don’t like? |
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ribeye
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Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
What’s funny is that no one really knows my political beliefs. They only know i’m not an identitarian and that I hate woke culture. Based on that, I am somehow a conservative.
It is hilarious and sad how the woke contest culture is destroying the party and soon it will be down to only people who bow down to the squad. |
So from a post in the politics thread:
| Quote: | | I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? |
Do you think it is wrong to call someone by a name or label they prefer?
Do you care if you offend someone?
Do you use the "n" word, and why? |
None of these things have anything to do with politics.
Are you telling me that Democrats don’t call people by names or labels they don’t like? |
Since you won't answer simple questions, perhaps you just tell us what it is you hate in the woke culture.
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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Lucky_Shot
Star Player
Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 5140
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
AH is a Republican turned Democrat and if ringfinger is a Democrat, he doesn't banter like one. We tend to like data, facts and objective analysis and use these as tools to form AND SUPPORT an opinion. I'll leave it at that lest I might violate the rules.
And saying Democrats (or at least DMR) (and now, likely myself) are the ones who live in a bubble????? Y-O-U-'-V-E - G O T - T O - B E - K I D D I N G |
I would say that this site is probably one of the most far left places in all of The USA. The country is far more moderate/conservative than what is said in the political thread. Most progressive people come here to post because people will agree with them and their ideas wont be challenged all that much.
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble
Side note saying democrats are the only ones who like data, facts and objective analysis is extremely arrogant and really closed minded. Between moderates and conservatives the way you talk I dont know how you survive a dinner party and not have more than half the room not like you. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
What’s funny is that no one really knows my political beliefs. They only know i’m not an identitarian and that I hate woke culture. Based on that, I am somehow a conservative.
It is hilarious and sad how the woke contest culture is destroying the party and soon it will be down to only people who bow down to the squad. |
So from a post in the politics thread:
| Quote: | | I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person? |
Do you think it is wrong to call someone by a name or label they prefer?
Do you care if you offend someone?
Do you use the "n" word, and why? |
None of these things have anything to do with politics.
Are you telling me that Democrats don’t call people by names or labels they don’t like? |
Since you won't answer simple questions, perhaps you just tell us what it is you hate in the woke culture. |
I don’t see how those questions have anything to do with my political beliefs though.
What I hate the most about woke culture is its proclivity to drive division because it is punitive rather than rewarding. |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29286
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
On your first point, you did not quote the entire sentence, and therefore you removed my comment from its context and basically whiffed on the subject. On your second point, climate change is not identity politics, unless you are an iceberg or something. On your third point, I think you are attempting some sort of ad hominem, but offhand I'm not familiar with Ben Shapiro, so your apparent taunt missed the target. |
I bolded your whole context in my previous post. And I didn't take you out of context.
You said | Quote: | | Trump knows that elements of the left will call any white person a white supremacist (it used to be "racist," but people started blocking that out, so they had to raise the ante) at the drop of a hat. |
I asked you for an example. Which there should be since you used the term "elements". Is the Democratic party not made up of people?
So you couldn't think of a person. So you pretended I took you out of context
You said, | Quote: | | Likewise, they will call any man, especially an older white man, a sexist homophobe at the drop of a hat. |
Again. I asked you for an example of a person. You couldn't provide one. So you pretended I took you out of context. If you would've said "Trump believes" instead of "Trump knows" I wouldn't have responded to your comments at all. Knows implies your description is accurate.
In terms of AOC partnering up with an older white man on policy. Could a person who matches up with your description of "element of the left" do that? Could a person consumed with "identity politics" do that?
It's uncanny you don't know Ben Shapiro yet your vernacular matches him so well. But I trust you if you say you haven't heard of him. Have you heard of Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson or Ann Coulter or Laura Ingraham? If so, your portrayal of "elements" (which is apparently not people) of the Democratic party aligns with their descriptions as well.
I'll leave you with some comments Michelle Goldberg made after the recent AOC-Pelosi row:
| Quote: | These approaches aren’t mutually exclusive; Democrats probably need to balance them. But Pelosi shouldn’t be triangulating against the party’s impassioned young idealists to cultivate voters who are susceptible to right-wing demagogy. Rather than making Democrats seem more centrist, publicizing her contempt for the squad makes the party look weak and riven, and Trump, with his predator’s nose for vulnerability, has charged in to exploit the resulting discord.
Part of me understands the frustration of Democrats who find the squad maddening. Leftist criticism can be uniquely grating to liberals, especially the kind that treats disagreements over strategy as differences of morality. And some of the newcomers’ rhetoric has been stupid and irresponsible. Still, it’s Pelosi’s responsibility — not that of four insurgents who’ve been in Congress for only six months — to bring the party she leads together. She came to power with a promise to go after Trump, not the left. Maybe if she fulfilled it, Democrats would direct their rage at the president instead of at one another. |
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | ^ Awwww. Where debates and discussion go to die. Welp. |
Only because some republicans such as yourself can't debate on substance and facts and get frustrated by that and do what amounts to taking your ball and going home to pout. |
RF's a democrat |
You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't buy that BS. |
he is a Democrat...as is AH. I find it beyond interesting how you either do not recognize or refuse to acknowledge how deep in the bubble you reside. The very fact that you feel it is appropriate for you to tell someone else what political party they support is only further evidence of an absolute void of self awareness about the positions you espouse. |
AH is a Republican turned Democrat and if ringfinger is a Democrat, he doesn't banter like one. We tend to like data, facts and objective analysis and use these as tools to form AND SUPPORT an opinion. I'll leave it at that lest I might violate the rules.
And saying Democrats (or at least DMR) (and now, likely myself) are the ones who live in a bubble????? Y-O-U-'-V-E - G O T - T O - B E - K I D D I N G |
I would say that this site is probably one of the most far left places in all of The USA. The country is far more moderate/conservative than what is said in the political thread. Most progressive people come here to post because people will agree with them and their ideas wont be challenged all that much.
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble
Side note saying democrats are the only ones who like data, facts and objective analysis is extremely arrogant and really closed minded. Between moderates and conservatives the way you talk I dont know how you survive a dinner party and not have more than half the room not like you. |
I continue this in the appropriate forum.
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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kikanga
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Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29286
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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When a prominent left person champions an overly derisive point of view. Democrats denounce them.
| Quote: | | Dems denounce Farrakhan rhetoric amid pressure from GOP |
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/08/louis-farrakhan-democrats-448241
When a prominent right person champions an overly derisive point of view. The GOP elects them President.
That is the key difference. So it's tough for me to hear people complain about the former while not mentioning the latter.
"Identity politics" isn't some sort of chicken vs egg situation. The racial tensions we're seeing in America today weren't inflamed by Democrats.
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"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
On your first point, you did not quote the entire sentence, and therefore you removed my comment from its context and basically whiffed on the subject. On your second point, climate change is not identity politics, unless you are an iceberg or something. On your third point, I think you are attempting some sort of ad hominem, but offhand I'm not familiar with Ben Shapiro, so your apparent taunt missed the target. |
I bolded your whole context in my previous post. And I didn't take you out of context.
You said | Quote: | | Trump knows that elements of the left will call any white person a white supremacist (it used to be "racist," but people started blocking that out, so they had to raise the ante) at the drop of a hat. |
I asked you for an example. Which there should be since you used the term "elements". Is the Democratic party not made up of people?
So you couldn't think of a person. So you pretended I took you out of context |
No, you completely butchered the context, and at this point it seems clear that you did it on purpose. Now you are conflating "elements of the left" with "the Democratic party." Heck, I'm a Democrat, so I must be one of the people I am talking about.
If you want to play word games, go find someone who cares. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: |
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. |
As has been said repeatedly on the subject by many of us, we welcome conservative viewpoints. All that is asked is that the viewpoint expressed be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to: to present analysis that is backed up by facts and substance and to do so with intellectual honesty. The problem arises when people want to post political rhetoric that has been disproven or is otherwise baseless or unsubstantiated. That won't go unchallenged, nor would any reasonable person want it to be.
| Quote: | | If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble |
You'd have a point if that was what was going on. It's quite obvious that the regular contributors in the Poli thread do exactly the opposite.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Lucky_Shot wrote: |
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. |
As has been said repeatedly on the subject by many of us, we welcome conservative viewpoints. All that is asked is that the viewpoint expressed be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to: to present analysis that is backed up by facts and substance and to do so with intellectual honesty. The problem arises when people want to post political rhetoric that has been disproven or is otherwise baseless or unsubstantiated. That won't go unchallenged, nor would any reasonable person want it to be.
| Quote: | | If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble |
You'd have a point if that was what was going on. It's quite obvious that the regular contributors in the Poli thread do exactly the opposite. |
This is what you say, not what actually happens.
Which is why there is no one that posts in there regularly that would be considered moderate or even right of center.
The furthest to the right that faux political thread goes is when someone is opposed to impeachment proceedings lol. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
On your first point, you did not quote the entire sentence, and therefore you removed my comment from its context and basically whiffed on the subject. On your second point, climate change is not identity politics, unless you are an iceberg or something. On your third point, I think you are attempting some sort of ad hominem, but offhand I'm not familiar with Ben Shapiro, so your apparent taunt missed the target. |
I bolded your whole context in my previous post. And I didn't take you out of context.
You said | Quote: | | Trump knows that elements of the left will call any white person a white supremacist (it used to be "racist," but people started blocking that out, so they had to raise the ante) at the drop of a hat. |
I asked you for an example. Which there should be since you used the term "elements". Is the Democratic party not made up of people?
So you couldn't think of a person. So you pretended I took you out of context |
No, you completely butchered the context, and at this point it seems clear that you did it on purpose. Now you are conflating "elements of the left" with "the Democratic party." Heck, I'm a Democrat, so I must be one of the people I am talking about.
If you want to play word games, go find someone who cares. |
AH, just curious ... I have often considered myself a “90s democrat” which would now be bordering on alt-right depending on who you ask.
How do you reconcile considering yourself a democrat, against what it means to be a democrat in 2019? Just curious. I admit its problematic for me. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Lucky_Shot wrote: |
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. |
As has been said repeatedly on the subject by many of us, we welcome conservative viewpoints. All that is asked is that the viewpoint expressed be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to: to present analysis that is backed up by facts and substance and to do so with intellectual honesty. The problem arises when people want to post political rhetoric that has been disproven or is otherwise baseless or unsubstantiated. That won't go unchallenged, nor would any reasonable person want it to be.
| Quote: | | If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble |
You'd have a point if that was what was going on. It's quite obvious that the regular contributors in the Poli thread do exactly the opposite. |
This is what you say, not what actually happens.
Which is why there is no one that posts in there regularly that would be considered moderate or even right of center.
The furthest to the right that faux political thread goes is when someone is opposed to impeachment proceedings lol. |
It is absolutely exactly as it goes, and it is well documented in the thread. The cycle has repeated itself time and time again almost like clockwork. Conservative shows up and makes an assertion. Members reasonably request concrete substation for the position/claim. Conservative either can't or won't (as ribeye stated) provide that substance. The claims and assertions are met with rebuttal that demonstrates their flaws. Conservative then makes the claim that they are "attacked" when all that has really occurred is simple request to in effect "SHOW YOUR WORK".
To claim otherwise is preposterous because it quite literally is there in print. A simple read of the historical interactions provides ample evidence that I am correct in that description.
And ironically, this very claim of yours is exactly the kind of thing we are talking about. To further demonstrate just how preposterous it is, you yourself engaged in that very thing a few days ago. You made and assertion, ribeye and others asked you for concrete evidence of what you were claiming and you just danced around with vague analogies and making claims about how things were without any factual basis for backing the claims. Ribeye implored upon you to at least provide substantiation and you simply moved your feet a little faster in your analogy dance. The discussion broke down and came to a halt because you did exactly what I and others speak of.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67631
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know the site or if it's legitimate.
Note the fake seal has a two headed eagle like the Russian seal.
Trump speech: Staffer responsible for fake US presidential seal with Russian eagles and golf clubs fired
LINK
| Quote: | | The president addressed a crowd of 1,500 young conservatives in front of the seal as the main speaker at the organisation’s Teen Student Action Summit in Washington, DC. His 80-minute speech included praise for newly installed UK prime minister Boris Johnson, as well as a claim that the president has absolute power according to the US constitution, which is not true. |
LINK
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | AH, just curious ... I have often considered myself a “90s democrat” which would now be bordering on alt-right depending on who you ask.
How do you reconcile considering yourself a democrat, against what it means to be a democrat in 2019? Just curious. I admit its problematic for me. |
Well, the first question is what it means to be a Democrat in 2019. At least for the moment, the Democratic Party is still a big tent that has room for moderates. You may have read that states like Texas are starting to trend blue. This is not the same as trending liberal. The radical left does not have a foothold here.
The next question is whether the radical left will destroy the Democratic Party. I went through this in the GOP. Certain elements of the right created litmus tests that many of us did not satisfy. You can make an argument that, at this point, the only unifying principle in the GOP is hatred of the left. The darkly humorous part is the GOP leaders who exploited this for so long got outplayed by Trump, who cranked it up to 11. The rank and file of the GOP will forgive Trump for just about anything as long as he regularly pisses off the liberals. But the GOP of Dub, Gingrich, and Reagan is dead.
Ideologically, I was part of the “compassionate conservative” wing of the GOP — think Jack Kemp or George H.W. Bush in his pre-VP days or the so-called Rockefeller Republicans. Today, that’s a moderate Democrat, and there are a lot of us in the red and purple states.
But the current Democratic Party is a chaotic mess precisely because it is more a coalition of non-Republicans than a party with a common ideology. I expect that this is at the root of your concerns. If we had a parliamentary system, neither of the major parties would survive. You can see a parallel in the UK, where both the Conservatives and Labor are in a state of collapse. Some version of this seems inevitable here, but the structure of our system makes this difficult. You and I would probably be more comfortable in a centrist party than in a coalition with radical leftists and people collecting woke points. |
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | I don't know the site or if it's legitimate.
Note the fake seal has a two headed eagle like the Russian seal.
Trump speech: Staffer responsible for fake US presidential seal with Russian eagles and golf clubs fired
LINK
| Quote: | | The president addressed a crowd of 1,500 young conservatives in front of the seal as the main speaker at the organisation’s Teen Student Action Summit in Washington, DC. His 80-minute speech included praise for newly installed UK prime minister Boris Johnson, as well as a claim that the president has absolute power according to the US constitution, which is not true. |
LINK |
It happened and is posted in the Politics Thread.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Lucky_Shot wrote: |
Conservative tend to avoid this place because they know no matter what they say, they will be attacked from 10 different posters. So it creates a progressive bubble where the people hear from only one side. |
As has been said repeatedly on the subject by many of us, we welcome conservative viewpoints. All that is asked is that the viewpoint expressed be held to the same standards we hold ourselves to: to present analysis that is backed up by facts and substance and to do so with intellectual honesty. The problem arises when people want to post political rhetoric that has been disproven or is otherwise baseless or unsubstantiated. That won't go unchallenged, nor would any reasonable person want it to be.
| Quote: | | If you're a democrat and you come here a lot to get your news.... you live in a bubble |
You'd have a point if that was what was going on. It's quite obvious that the regular contributors in the Poli thread do exactly the opposite. |
This is what you say, not what actually happens.
Which is why there is no one that posts in there regularly that would be considered moderate or even right of center.
The furthest to the right that faux political thread goes is when someone is opposed to impeachment proceedings lol. |
It is absolutely exactly as it goes, and it is well documented in the thread. The cycle has repeated itself time and time again almost like clockwork. Conservative shows up and makes an assertion. Members reasonably request concrete substation for the position/claim. Conservative either can't or won't (as ribeye stated) provide that substance. The claims and assertions are met with rebuttal that demonstrates their flaws. Conservative then makes the claim that they are "attacked" when all that has really occurred is simple request to in effect "SHOW YOUR WORK".
To claim otherwise is preposterous because it quite literally is there in print. A simple read of the historical interactions provides ample evidence that I am correct in that description.
And ironically, this very claim of yours is exactly the kind of thing we are talking about. To further demonstrate just how preposterous it is, you yourself engaged in that very thing a few days ago. You made and assertion, ribeye and others asked you for concrete evidence of what you were claiming and you just danced around with vague analogies and making claims about how things were without any factual basis for backing the claims. Ribeye implored upon you to at least provide substantiation and you simply moved your feet a little faster in your analogy dance. The discussion broke down and came to a halt because you did exactly what I and others speak of. |
No. The discussion came to a halt because I had 4 people descending on me like a pack of wolves at the same time so i just bailed after a while.
You seem to be under the belief that you or other leftists get to decide whether my and others evidence is sufficient. I disagree with that. Unless, it’s a liberals thread masquerading as a political thread which is what it was and your response proves that.
Because if we are in a “whats car should I buy thread” to whom must I provide evidence behind my auto brand suggestion? No one, right?
Why is there is pseudo blue ribbon panel for validating “evidence” in virtually any other thread? |
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nickuku
Star Player
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 7844
Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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You know what I find disturbing in all of this is that whenever Trump or someone on the right says something offensive people like RF will be more outraged by the reaction than said person who made the the original comment.
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Don't let perfect be the enemy of good |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67631
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted by jodeke; Meant to post in PT. Informed it's already there
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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