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jodeke
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 Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Chappelle like Maher is a comedian. A joke is just that, a joke. Some seem to take their stand up as personal beliefs. Comments off stage may be a bellwether but a joke is entertainment.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
In both scenarios I wouldn't describe it as a subset. It was a majority. And in that sense, the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform.
Nothing wrong with that. |
Hahahahahaha.
You made that up. Completely lied. Why? |
Having the student body in uproar wouldn't have cost Berkeley? Having pissed off alumni wouldn't have cost Berkeley?
Having Louie CK associated with an act wouldn't have hurt the venue?
Do you think people are acting against their own financial interests? |
You completely made up that Berkeley conducted a cost/benefit analysis and determined it would be too costly to allow him to perform.
Admit it. You just fabricated that. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
In both scenarios I wouldn't describe it as a subset. It was a majority. And in that sense, the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform.
Nothing wrong with that. |
Hahahahahaha.
You made that up. Completely lied. Why? |
Having the student body in uproar wouldn't have cost Berkeley? Having pissed off alumni wouldn't have cost Berkeley?
Having Louie CK associated with an act wouldn't have hurt the venue?
Do you think people are acting against their own financial interests? |
I know you want to believe there is some sort of conspiracy here. But the truth is pretty self evident. Colleges and companies care about $.
Don't screw with people's $ by choice. Don't get canned.
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ocho
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Haha. You are conflating legal freedom of speech and censorship, with social restriction of speech.
Dangerous stuff.
EDIT: I mean “different”, not dangerous. Was in a hurry to get out of the office. |
I find it funny when comedians make a living complaining about society. And then complain if society complains about their set.
Social restriction of speech in a country where even Nazis are allowed to rally en masse is a boogeyman I'll never understand.
People in our country, comedians or otherwise, are allowed to say whatever they want no matter how unpopular. And other people are allowed to voice their opinions in response. There are no victims in the process unless words inspire violence. |
I believe most, if not all nearly all, comedians accept that the criticism comes with the territory. What they don't accept is when they are barred from from performing because some subset is offended. |
Who has been barred from performing and by who? There's a lot of places to perform and they all have different people in charge who decide who performs there. If a comic alienates their audience to the point where venues don't want to book them isn't it the comic's fault? |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
Bill Maher tours the country regularly to sold out audiences in addition to hosting a weekly TV show seen by millions. I think a lot of performers would love to be de-platformed in such a way.
Louie still performs (I believe he has a show this weekend) but clubs aren't booking him en masse because of anything he said. He jacked off in front of women who he worked with and to date has refused to discuss it or explain himself. I believe if he did he could win a lot of his audience back, but that's a choice he's making. |
Regardless how one wants to spin it, they were barred or had an appearance canceled because some didn't like their content or past behavior. |
I think it's important to establish what exactly we are discussing here. Bill Maher and Louie have little to nothing to do with each other. Maher is an extremely wealthy performer who plays all over the place and has a show where he give his opinion every week on national television. He has hardly been silenced or de-platformed. He alienated a small segment of his very large audience and lost ONE small gig over it. His brand of comedy is meant to provoke people by design. Pissing people off is baked right in and he knows it. We really want to cry foul because one small audience said no thanks? We can revisit this if he ever actually gets silenced.
Louie, again, didn't lose anything for anything he said. Before the NYT piece he was making jokes about child molestation on mainstream national TV shows and everyone thought he was hilarious. He lost work because of borderline sexual assault which he has refused to comment about. And even he hasn't been silenced. He's performing this weekend. |
You are taking this somewhere I never intended by my original comment. My point was that most comedians accept criticism except when the voices behind the criticism, likely people who do not want to see them, is such that it overpowers the audience that wants to hear them. I wasn't looking for you or anyone else to pity them. |
Fair enough, but in the case of Maher I don't think that's what happened here. There are myriad venues for anyone to see or hear him. Ultimately the decision was made by the school not to have him there because of the desires of their students (or enough of them, anyway). It should also be noted that it wasn't a stand-up performance that he lost. He was asked to speak at graduation, which changes the dynamics quite a bit in terms of choosing to see him or being forced to.
EDIT: This happened many years ago and I only had remembered the disinvitation until looking it up just now and seeing that Berkely overruled the petition and Maher ended up speaking at their graduation. So he wasn't even de-platformed there.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
In both scenarios I wouldn't describe it as a subset. It was a majority. And in that sense, the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform.
Nothing wrong with that. |
Hahahahahaha.
You made that up. Completely lied. Why? |
Having the student body in uproar wouldn't have cost Berkeley? Having pissed off alumni wouldn't have cost Berkeley?
Having Louie CK associated with an act wouldn't have hurt the venue?
Do you think people are acting against their own financial interests? |
I know you want to believe there is some sort of conspiracy here. But the truth is pretty self evident. Colleges and companies care about $.
Don't screw with people's $ by choice. Don't get canned. |
You’re avoiding the question.
You fabricated that the venue decided to do a cost/benefit analysis and determined the cost to allow Maher to give the commencement speech was too great to allow.
I’m just wondering why you chose to make this up. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
In both scenarios I wouldn't describe it as a subset. It was a majority. And in that sense, the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform.
Nothing wrong with that. |
Hahahahahaha.
You made that up. Completely lied. Why? |
Having the student body in uproar wouldn't have cost Berkeley? Having pissed off alumni wouldn't have cost Berkeley?
Having Louie CK associated with an act wouldn't have hurt the venue?
Do you think people are acting against their own financial interests? |
I know you want to believe there is some sort of conspiracy here. But the truth is pretty self evident. Colleges and companies care about $.
Don't screw with people's $ by choice. Don't get canned. |
You’re avoiding the question.
You fabricated that the venue decided to do a cost/benefit analysis and determined the cost to allow Maher to give the commencement speech was too great to allow.
I’m just wondering why you chose to make this up. |
Oh... so because they didn't put on paper a column that said "cost" and a column that said "benefit". By definition, they didn't do a cost benefit analysis. 
I can see why that's an important distinction, as opposed to just weighing the pluses and minuses and making a decision.
Psst... whether its formal or not they still did the analysis. And made a decision based on their conclusion.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:55 am Post subject: |
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The fact that you're hung up on that really shows you have no answer to what we're discussing. Companies, colleges, venues, etc. all have the right to remove people if the person hired makes choices they disagree with. Because when you give a person a platform or job. They are a reflection on you. It's not "social restriction of speech".
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. Louie CK is another. Some dude with dreadlocks is another. |
In both scenarios I wouldn't describe it as a subset. It was a majority. And in that sense, the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform.
Nothing wrong with that. |
Hahahahahaha.
You made that up. Completely lied. Why? |
Having the student body in uproar wouldn't have cost Berkeley? Having pissed off alumni wouldn't have cost Berkeley?
Having Louie CK associated with an act wouldn't have hurt the venue?
Do you think people are acting against their own financial interests? |
I know you want to believe there is some sort of conspiracy here. But the truth is pretty self evident. Colleges and companies care about $.
Don't screw with people's $ by choice. Don't get canned. |
You’re avoiding the question.
You fabricated that the venue decided to do a cost/benefit analysis and determined the cost to allow Maher to give the commencement speech was too great to allow.
I’m just wondering why you chose to make this up. |
Oh... so because they didn't put on paper a column that said "cost" and a column that said "benefit". By definition, they didn't do a cost benefit analysis.
I can see why that's an important distinction, as opposed to just weighing the pluses and minuses and making a decision.
Psst... whether its formal or not they still did the analysis. And made a decision based on their conclusion. |
It is an undeniable FACT that they didn’t do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude, as you said, that the cost to allow Maher give the speech was too great to allow.
You completely fabricated that and it goes against facts and reality.
I’m just asking why. Why? |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | It is an undeniable FACT that they didn’t do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude, as you said, that the cost to allow Maher give the speech was too great to allow.
You completely fabricated that and it goes against facts and reality.
I’m just asking why. Why? |
Those are the facts and reality as I understand them. Please explain to me why I'm wrong. Please explain to me how they figured they had less to lose than to gain but still decided not to allow Bill on stage.
Wait. I get it. Bill DID perform. I was confused. I thought they decided to not allow him to perform.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem?
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | It is an undeniable FACT that they didn’t do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude, as you said, that the cost to allow Maher give the speech was too great to allow.
You completely fabricated that and it goes against facts and reality.
I’m just asking why. Why? |
Those are the facts and reality as I understand them. Please explain to me why I'm wrong. Please explain to me how they figured they had less to lose than to gain but still decided not to allow Bill on stage.
Wait. I get it. Bill DID perform. I was confused. I thought they decided to not allow him to perform. |
Your reality as you understood is, unfortunately, not the reality.
Why do people make statements as if they are facts, even when they themselves do not know that they are facts? And not just you kikanga, but this is somewhat of a scourge today. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Why was it rescinded at one point?
Don’t make it up this time!!!! |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | It is an undeniable FACT that they didn’t do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude, as you said, that the cost to allow Maher give the speech was too great to allow.
You completely fabricated that and it goes against facts and reality.
I’m just asking why. Why? |
Those are the facts and reality as I understand them. Please explain to me why I'm wrong. Please explain to me how they figured they had less to lose than to gain but still decided not to allow Bill on stage.
Wait. I get it. Bill DID perform. I was confused. I thought they decided to not allow him to perform. |
Your reality as you understood is, unfortunately, not the reality.
Why do people make statements as if they are facts, even when they themselves do not know that they are facts? And not just you kikanga, but this is somewhat of a scourge today. |
I responded to poster who said his invitation was rescinded. His invitation was rescinded. It was reported as such. And later, it was overturned. I didn't make up (bleep). I missed the headline that it was overturned and took another poster at his word. Save me the holier than though bs.
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Last edited by kikanga on Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Except that it pissed him off, who said there is a problem?
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Except that it pissed him off, who said there is a problem? |
Ring's social "restriction of speech" theory.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | It is an undeniable FACT that they didn’t do a cost/benefit analysis and conclude, as you said, that the cost to allow Maher give the speech was too great to allow.
You completely fabricated that and it goes against facts and reality.
I’m just asking why. Why? |
Those are the facts and reality as I understand them. Please explain to me why I'm wrong. Please explain to me how they figured they had less to lose than to gain but still decided not to allow Bill on stage.
Wait. I get it. Bill DID perform. I was confused. I thought they decided to not allow him to perform. |
Your reality as you understood is, unfortunately, not the reality.
Why do people make statements as if they are facts, even when they themselves do not know that they are facts? And not just you kikanga, but this is somewhat of a scourge today. |
I responded to poster who said his invitation was rescinded. His invitation was rescinded. It was reported as such. And later, it was overturned. I didn't make up (bleep). I missed the headline that it was overturned and took another poster at his word. Save me the holier than though bs. |
| Quote: | | ...the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform. |
If this is an opinion, may I suggest framing it as such in the future?
I didnt get the impression from the initial discussions that you had zero clue about even the basics of this story.
That’s why I had so much trouble believing your “cost/benefit analysis” claim. I was like this dude thinks Maher never gave his commencement... there is no way he has any insights on a cost/benefit analysis! Haha
All good lets move on and stick with the facts. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Except that it pissed him off, who said there is a problem? |
Ha. Well if all we care about is the end result, then I guess the bumps along the way don’t matter.
I don’t subscribe to that philosophy but if you do, fine, but own it and be consistent no “but but but” exceptions. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ...the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform. |
If this is an opinion, may I suggest framing it as such in the future?
I didnt get the impression from the initial discussions that you had zero clue about even the basics of this story.
That’s why I had so much trouble believing your “cost/benefit analysis” claim. I was like this dude thinks Maher never gave his commencement... there is no way he has any insights on a cost/benefit analysis! Haha
All good lets move on and stick with the facts. |
I wouldn't describe it as an opinion. I would describe it as a mistake.
Sure, and in the future if someone mentions two things (like Maher AND Louis CK). And if someone works off an assumption previously stated (invitation rescinded). You don't call them a liar in general. You tell them specifically where their mistake was made. Especially if the story had multiple stages (the first being when that assumption was correct). And the person asked you to clarify.
You kept bringing up cost/benefit analysis and calling me a liar (in general, not addressing what specifically I was wrong about) when you could've easily at any point said, "he actually did perform". Funny thing is, guess how they decided to let him perform after all? They weighed the pluses and minuses and made a decision.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | ...the venue did a cost/benefit analysis and decided it would cost too much to allow them to perform. |
If this is an opinion, may I suggest framing it as such in the future?
I didnt get the impression from the initial discussions that you had zero clue about even the basics of this story.
That’s why I had so much trouble believing your “cost/benefit analysis” claim. I was like this dude thinks Maher never gave his commencement... there is no way he has any insights on a cost/benefit analysis! Haha
All good lets move on and stick with the facts. |
I wouldn't describe it as an opinion. I would describe it as a mistake.
Sure, and in the future if someone mentions two things (like Maher AND Louis CK). And if someone works off an assumption previously stated (invitation rescinded). You don't call them a liar in general. You tell them specifically where their mistake was made. Especially if the story had multiple stages (the first being when that assumption was correct). And the person asked you to clarify.
You kept bringing up cost/benefit analysis and calling me a liar (in general, not addressing what specifically I was wrong about) when you could've easily at any point said, "he actually did perform". Funny thing is, guess how they decided to let him perform after all? They weighed the pluses and minuses and made a decision. |
Fwiw, I did not call you a liar. I asked why you told a lie. Not the same thing although in 2019, I understand many cannot separate the two (I can though). If you stated what you said as an opinion, that would be different. But you stated it as a fact. (Scroll up). That’s why I suggested framing things as an opinion. If you frame it as fact and you are wrong than the onus is on you for not checking your facts. If you frame it as an opinion, well, I think folks will be more tolerant.
Let’s get back to comedians and why we can’t just say “nope not for me” and move along like many folks do. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Except that it pissed him off, who said there is a problem? |
Ring's social "restriction of speech" theory. |
If we may ... let’s start fresh with this one.
Why do you think social restriction of speech is a theory? I mean, you don’t believe it exists? Or.... |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | I was responding to this:
| ribeye wrote: |
Bill Maher had an invitation rescinded at Berkeley. |
Genuinely thought he didn't perform. So since he did. What's the problem? |
Except that it pissed him off, who said there is a problem? |
Ha. Well if all we care about is the end result, then I guess the bumps along the way don’t matter.
I don’t subscribe to that philosophy but if you do, fine, but own it and be consistent no “but but but” exceptions. |
The end result of what?
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: |
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^ Couple convos there but if the notion is that it is no big deal that his invitation was at a certain point rescinded (obviously for political reasons not financial as some have claimed) because he was eventually permitted to give the commencement...
... I think that misses the point. That we achieved the desired result isn’t necessarily what matters. Sometimes, how you get there counts for a lot. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | ^ Couple convos there but if the notion is that it is no big deal that his invitation was at a certain point rescinded (obviously for political reasons not financial as some have claimed) because he was eventually permitted to give the commencement...
... I think that misses the point. That we achieved the desired result isn’t necessarily what matters. Sometimes, how you get there counts for a lot. |
Got it. But I will add, I had no issue if he got there or it he did not, so the path is immaterial.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | If you frame it as an opinion, well, I think folks will be more tolerant. |
If you actually clarified what part of the story I missed, instead of going on diatribes about LG liars. I think folks will be more tolerant.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
If we may ... let’s start fresh with this one.
Why do you think social restriction of speech is a theory? I mean, you don’t believe it exists? Or.... |
I think it is as much of a restriction as holding in a fart is in public.
Calling it a restriction is laughable. Adhering to a company's code of conduct or staying consistent with a company's desired public presence is a far more accurate description.
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