LAKERS -at- CLIPPERS - 10/22 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: LAKERS -at- CLIPPERS - 10/22 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

Lakers vs. Clippers, Round 1 ... On either end of the court tonight, the Lakers didn’t really have their act together.

This was a post-heavy, iso-heavy start offensively. It was more of a tag team effort between our two stars rather than working together.

The Lakers came out with a hot start to take an early 13-2 lead, but they got burned badly in the second quarter where the Clippers shot 17-22 on their way to 40 points to take a 62-54 lead at the half. We had bad matchup with KCP on Kawhi instead of Green. The Lakers also got outrebounded 5-0 on the offensive glass.

“We didn’t execute the game plan very effectively,” Vogel said of that quarter (I hope not...although the plan did have KCP taking Kawhi defensively).

In the second half, the Lakers started to run some of the basics of their offense to get a little more flow. Still, we never got LeBron on track. He was spraying passes around from odd angles and into places with little purpose. Our iso ball didn’t put a lot of pressure on the rim and collapse the D.

When he sat with over 3 minutes left in the third quarter, the Lakers were down 12. Danny Green kept them in the game. His third quarter was sensational and he helped the Lakers tie the game up by the end of the quarter. He’d finish the game with 28 points.

“I was just trying to play basketball, trying to win the game,” Green said.

The Lakers went back to struggling in the fourth, scoring just 17 points as AD and LeBron had just 2 points combined,

“Offensively, we look like a group that’s new to each other, which is to be expected,” Vogel said.

The Lakers fell 112-102. I didn’t expect them to win this game. The Clippers have more continuity with that Williams/Harrell combo and are a bit further along as a result. When they were struggling early, they quickly brought them in to right their ship.


LeBron -- -- Let’s get to the positives first. Really good game defensively. He had a track down block that we rarely saw last season and drew a number of charges. He’s been playing strong defense in the preseason and showed that tonight. But, man, our offense wasn’t playing to his strengths and he couldn’t hit his jumper. The turnovers were high as he was throwing bad angle passes or passes that weren’t confident, kind of just trying to force it where it wasn’t going to do much anyway. The Clippers put Beverley on him early to start, so he worked out of the post some. He had 14 points on 5-11 shooting and 4 assists in the first half, but the offense was clunky at times. They worked some split action in the second half and would occasionally execute something as intended, but really not connected as a team. So that AD/LeBron combo was more of a tag team, then a pair with chemistry. They’ll get there. The Stats: He scored 18 points on 7-19 shooting (1-5 from three, 3-4 from the line) to go with 9 boards, 8 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 5 turnovers and 3 fouls in 36 minutes. He was a -8. The Action: He posted up Beverley, drop-stepped and scored an easy layup. He posted up again, drew the double team and hit Green for the open three. He posted up Kawhi and then sank the baseline fade. He missed a three when the D went under. He iso’d on a big, attacked and drew FTs, he made both. He missed a 15-footer. He drained a wing three. He was fouled on a putback attempt to regain possession. His kickback was picked off. He attacked and missed a fade. He attacked, spun and scored a layup. He blew past Kawhi and scored a layup. Give-and-go to Daniels for an And-1 layup. He attacked and was blocked or lost the handle. He spotted Davis under the hoop for the And-1. He got tapped on the long step-back three. He was blocked on a layup. He drew FTs on the perimeter, he made one. Second Half: He posted up, drew the double and hit McGee for the dunk. He found Green for a three. He attacked and missed the runner. He missed a drive against Zubac, we got a stop on him on the other end and gave it to him for a hammer dunk in transition. They went under the screen, he didn’t shoot and threw it away. He missed a three when they went under the screen. Chase down block from behind, then he drew a charge to finish getting the stop. He forced a pass into howard, turnover. He missed a three but got it back. He missed a jumper on iso. He forced his way to the front of the rim for a layup. He missed a point-blank layup. He attacked, spun and lost the handle next time down, turnover. Great strip after a bad pass from KCP had LeBron as the only man back on D. He drew another charge, standing in on Kawhi’s drive in transition. Horrible pass trying to force it into AD at a bad angle.

Davis -- -- We ran a lot through him to start, mostly in the post. Just dump it to him and stand around. You can pretty much do that every possession...not great, but at the very least, you will get a decent shot. When he’d get near the rim, it was trouble. (When the Lakers can execute at a higher level, we will see him get a few more of those closer in.) The jumpshot and freethrows were a little off so he was less efficient than he should have been. Still, he finished with 18 on 5-11 shooting (8-12 from the line) in the first half, even if it wasn’t really flowing. There wasn’t any real chemistry with him and LeBron. It was more of taking their turns separately versus working together to create chaos. So kind of a roll the ball out there and just play game as a result. AD is still pretty good at that, even if his perimeter shot isn’t dropping right now. Look at the numbers and understand this is actually a somewhat subpar game from him. The Stats: He scored 25 points on 8-21 shooting (0-2 from three, 9-14 from the line) to go with 10 boards (3 offensive), 5 assists, 1 steal, 2 blocks, 3 turnovers and 3 fouls in 37 minutes. He was a +3. The Action: He airballed a pull-up jumper from 17 feet. He forced Kawhi into a travel on the perimeter. He found McGee for a dunk under the hoop. He drew FTs on an inbounds, he made both. He missed a tech. He faced up, spun and powered up a layup. He missed a turnaround in the post. He posted up and hit the jumphook. He missed an open wing three, but hustled back in transition to steal the outlet and find a teammate before going out of bounds. He may have gotten a piece of Lou’s jumper on a help challenge (shot didn’t hit rim). He posted up and didn’t hit rim himself on a turnaround on the other end. He drew more FTs, he missed both. He was called for a travel. Nice challenge to force a miss. He posted up, backed his man down and drew FTs, he made one. He posted up, got to the rim and scored the layup. He attacked from the perimeter and charged. He posted up and drew more FTs, he made both. He sank a face-up from the mid post. LeBron found him under the hoop for the easy And-1, he made the FT. He iso’d and missed the tough one-hander. He posted up and drew FTs at the rim, he made both. Second Half: He missed a turnaround from 15. He drew FTs on a tough baseline turnaround, he made one. He missed a putback jam. Low position, he spun and flipped in a layup over the D. He airballed a face-up jumper. He missed a wing three. He threw down a putback dunk. He took a shoulder to the chest but was called for the blocking foul. He posted up, leaned one way, then quickly spun the other and scored at the rim. He missed a deep, face-up jumper at the end of the third. He missed an elbow pull-up. He rejected Kawhi’s drive on iso.

Green -- -- He was on fire in the third quarter. This was especially helpful when LeBron sat and we needed some scoring. Give me this kind of game from him when LeBron/AD actually have their chemistry going and the Lakers will be tough to beat. I love seeing him relocate into open spaces with speed. That caught the Clips off guard at times and led to great looks. Defensively, I wish we had matched him up more with Kawhi’s substitution pattern. Coaches did us no favors by having smaller defenders on Kawhi. The Stats: He scored 28 points on 10-14 shooting (7-9 from three, 1-1 from the line) to go with 7 boards, 2 steals, 1 block and 3 fouls in 32 minutes. He was a +7. The Action: He drained a wing three on a kickout when LeBron drew the double in the post. He stole the ball at midcourt. He missed a corner three after a fly by. He drew an offensive foul after fighting through a screen to get the stop. He missed a pull-up jumper. He got backdoored for a dunk. He missed a heave from three at the buzzer. Second Half: He pumped a couple of times then knocked down the corner three after the kickout. He drained an And-1 three against a late switch, he made the FT. He forced Kawhi into a travel on a drive. He grabbed an airball and reversed. He ran to an open corner in transition, took the pass and swished. Working off the Howard screen, he sank a leaning three. He pulled up in transition and drilled a deep three. He attacked the paint and missed the lefty scoop. He stole the ball in the backcourt and scored a layup. He attacked off the three line and scored a layup. He got a nice bounce on a corner three on iso.

McGee -- -- I wish we would have gone bigger a bit more with McGee. Credit the Clippers with doing a good job boxing out on the glass...but we also did a poor job putting pressure on the front of the rim or collapsing the D on the two-man action. Clippers were allowed to play small without any issues. The Stats: He scored 4 points on 2-3 shooting to go with 2 boards, 2 blocks, 1 turnover and no fouls in 17 minutes. He was a +0. The Action: He dunked when AD found him under the hoop. He swatted a shot recovering to his man at the rim. His post entry pass was picked off. He erased a drive. Second Half: LeBron drew a double and found McGee diving for the dunk.

Bradley -- -- He’s been a bit foul prone with his aggressiveness early on. That’s not a good combo against Lou Williams who is looking to draw whistles. But he avoided issues in the second half. He had a couple moments offensively, sinking some threes and a midrange jumper. The Stats: He scored 8 points on 3-7 shooting (2-5 from three) to go with 3 boards, 2 turnovers and 3 fouls in 24 minutes. He was a -1. The Action: Bad angle on the post entry, turnover. He sank a corner three. He sank a 17-footer working off the high screen. He missed a pull-up trying to create on iso with the clock low. He picked up his third foul and had to sit. Second Half: He missed a three on iso. He sank a three off a handoff. He missed a three with the clock low.

Howard -- -- Actually liked the game from him even though the stats aren’t great. He was able to get to the offensive glass with some nice effort. We were lacking that with consistency. Defensively, having to deal with a tricky cover like Lou coming off the screens isn’t easy and the Lakers struggled to defend that consistently. He got some cheap calls on him and seemed a little frustrated. Offensively, we need some better guard play to make him more effective than we saw in this one. The Stats: He scored 3 points on 1-3 shooting (1-1 from the line) to go with 6 boards (3 offensive), 1 assist, 1 block and 4 fouls in 19 minutes. He was a -1. The Action: He roofed a man to get the stop. Called for a foul on a trackdown block, kind of bogus but he landed on Lou, I guess. He was fouled by Kawhi on the screen-roll as LeBron was scoring, he made the FT for the And-1. Second Half: He slammed back down a missed Cook drive. Great job to keep a couple offensive boards alive on one possession. He couldn’t finish a dunk, getting fouled from behind with no call. He drew defenders under the hoop, kicked it out and it led to a Dudley three.

Caldwell-Pope -- -- We had him covering Kawhi at the close of the first quarter and into second quarter. That’s not a good matchup. Kawhi was just getting where he wanted to on the floor and shooting over him with ease. I think he just pretended KCP wasn’t there. Kawhi had 20 points on 8-11 shooting in the half. KCP was a -13. Not his fault, that’s just a bad matchup. Offensively, KCP didn’t make a shot in three attempts, but again, that’s more of a sign that our offense isn’t executing. But also shows the limitations of his game and ability to impose himself on the D. He did have 3 assists, including a sweet one off a baseline drive that led to a three by Daniels. This game really showed how nice it would be to have a guy like Iguodala defending those minutes versus KCP. The Stats: He didn’t score on 0-3 shooting (0-2 from three) to go with 3 boards, 3 assists, 1 turnover and 5 fouls in 27 minutes. He was a -8. The Action: He attacked baseline and hit Daniels in the corner for three. He missed a wing three. Second Half: He missed a baseline jumper. He missed a step-back jumper to try to beat the shotclock after a timeout.

Daniels -- -- Got to hit those threes. Our two designated shooters (Daniels and Cook) went a combined 1-8 from three. May seem like a minor thing, but they had some good looks that they typically hit at a high level. Got to knock those down. The Stats: He scored 6 points on 2-6 shooting (1-5 from three, 1-1 from the line) to go with 1 assist, 1 turnover and 1 foul in 16 minutes. He was a -13. The Action: He swished an open corner three on a kickout. He missed a three in transition. He finished an And-1 floater on the give-and-go with LeBron, he made the FT. He missed a three on a kickout. Second Half: He threw a perimeter pass away trying to force it to LeBron out of a timeout. He missed an open corner three.

Cook -- -- Like Daniels, he missed some good looks. I did like that when it appeared Cook didn’t quite have it, that Vogel went to Daniel, swapping the shooters out. Unfortunately, he didn’t have it, either. Decent job by Cook dealing with some ball pressure, he had a nice attack off that and was able to get to the rim. The Lakers badly needed that. Good things typically happen when we can do that (he had a layup and on a miss, Dwight cleaned up another of his drives). The Stats: He scored 4 points on 2-7 shooting (0-3 from three) to go with 1 board, 2 assists, 1 turnover and no fouls in 17 minutes. He was a -9. The Action: He attacked the pressure and scored a layup. He missed a pull-up wing jumper. He attacked and lost the handle at the end of the quarter. His post entry was picked off. He missed a corner three. Second Half: He probed, got to the rim, missed but Dwight threw it down. He missed a wing three. He missed an open corner three. He worked off the screen and hit the midrange jumper.

Dudley -- -- Serviceable minutes. He sank the three ball when he had good looks. Some nice rotations on D. While we didn’t have the offense flowing, he helped them to move the ball and make smarter plays. The -20 was dealing that KCP/Kawhi matchup causing us issues. The Stats: He scored 6 points on 2-2 shooting from three to go with 2 fouls in 13 minutes. He wa s a-20. The Action: He swished a corner three. Nice help D challenge on Lou to force a turnaround. Second Half: Big three off the swing pass to force a timeout.

Vogel -- -- The Lakers got off to a 13-2 start so the Clippers went to the bench early… First subs, KCP for Bradley, Howard for McGee, Lakers up 17-8 with 5 minutes left… Vogel used his challenge early, not thrilled about that… Daniels in for Green… Still 17-8 when Cook came in for LeBron. So Howard, AD, KCP, Daniels, Cook lineup… Not a lot of motion or ball movement in the offense. Mostly iso and two-man game… 25-17 when Dudley came in for AD, who picked up his second foul with a minute left… The Lakers led 25-22 after the first quarter… Howard, LeBron, Dudley, KCP, Daniels to start the second quarter. KCP covering Kawhi… David back in with 6:44 left for LeBron, Lakers down 1… Dwight picked up his third and sat for McGee… Timeout down 45-39… McGee, AD, Green, Bradley, Cook lineup… Bradley out with fouls… The Lakers go with AD, LeBron, Green, KCP and Cook… Extremely iso heavy and post heavy game for the Lakers… The Lakers gave up 40 points in the second quarter… They trailed 62-54 at the half… The Clippers pulled out to a 70-56 point lead after an 8-0 run and the Lakers called a timeout… A 10-2 Laker run to force a timeout… Bad execution out of a timeout and we didn’t get a shot off… Howard and KCP in for Bradley and McGee... Cook in for LeBron with 3:33 left, Lakers down 12… Green killing it for the Lakers offensively and they tie the game up 85-85 heading into the fourth. Great job by him and that unit… He started a Howard, LeBron, Dudley, KCP, Cook lineup… Cook was cold, so he sat him for Daniels… Burned again with this KCP/Kawhi matchup. Vogel called a timeout after giving up a 7-0 run to start the quarter. Sigh... Howard, AD, LeBron, KCP, Daniels down 2 with over 8 minutes left… Lakers turn it over in their ATO possession on that… Down 7 again just a minute later and Vogel called timeout… Out of that, he went to an AD, Dudley, Green, Bradley, Cook lineup… Down 11, LeBron back in for Dudley with 5:11 to go… They couldn’t close the gap… Players are new, coaches and their system, too...

Programming Note: I won't be able to cover the next game. Hopefully LGers can step up and help on the game coverage!
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gumby
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject:

I didn't get to watch the whole game.

But I chalk it up to everyone still getting used to each other and not playing the sorry pre-season Warriors.

We'll get a better feel for this team in the coming weeks but I did like that free throws were made and 3-pointers too!

Bye.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject:

One game one loss.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Thanks DB. Nice to be doing it for real again, despite the outcome.

I'm looking at the guard corp outside of Green and it was ugly tonight. Bradley, Pope, Cook and Daniels played 84 combined minutes (35% of the available 240 minutes) scoring 18 points, 6 assists and 7 rebounds with 5 turnovers and 9 fouls on 7-23 shooting. I'm guessing you lose most nights against a playoff team with those kind of numbers.

Green was spectacular and Bradley gave us decent 'first guard off the bench' level production. But you can see right away we have a monster hole at guard.
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unleasHell
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:30 am    Post subject:

Great analysis, as usual..

As to why they lost: the Lakers allowing the Clippers to shoot 77% in the second quarter sealed their fate....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:33 am    Post subject:

More important, no one came out with an injury.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:16 am    Post subject:

ElginBaylor wrote:
More important, no one came out with an injury.


Amen!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject:

We need a true PG badly.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:58 am    Post subject: Perimeter Pressure

danzag wrote:
We need a true PG badly.


The problem is perimeter pressure

The way they are putting intense on ball pressure reminds me of Scottie Pippen vs Magic in the Finals

Bron can play point against a weak slow defender like DLO or Luka Donkic

Against Beverly and the very aggressive on ball pressure of the young Clipper legs there are two ways to beat pressure

You need to set hard back picks and off ball screens on Beverly’s man. Just over and over again. Just watch tapes of Karl Malone hammering Pippen over and over again in Jazz Bulls finals when Pippen trying to ball hawk Stockton. The Jazz almost did it. Pippen’s back on verge of collapsing. A 18 foot MJ jumper saved the Bulls.

The other way to beat ball pressure is run more Triangle pinch post action. Give and goes. Hard cutting.

Think Fisher and Harper making hard cuts to the corner. Horry and Kobe slashing to the hoop.

We aren’t getting a CP3 level point

Need more off ball screens or more triangle action
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:59 am    Post subject:

This game really showed us how valuable Kuzma is. Yes the conventional wisdom is PG > Kuzma but the Clips have some redundancy with his skillsets (dynamic scorer, perimeter D, and perimeter shooting. The Lakers have ZERO dynamic scoring and playmaking outside of our big 2. And for all his faults, Rondo's chemistry with Davis may end up becoming vital when LeBron sits.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject:

KL was a beast.

But IMO, the Clips bench beat the Lakers. 60 points.

And they have 100% continuity with Bev/Trez/Lou/Shamet so it's not surprising those guys flowed well. They basically replaced Gallo with KL last night.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject:

Thanks DB. I think you nailed it with regards to the biggest problems in this game; lack of continuity first and foremost, and KCP is not a viable backup 3 to defend Leonard. I did not like seeing Patrick Beverly as the leading rebounder on the floor in the first half, considering the size advantages we could have imposed out there. That secondary lineup simply didn't work. Perhaps the dynamic changes with Kuzma on the floor during those minutes.

The first glimpse of our 'death lineup' was not impressive either, with AD and Lebron shifting to 5 and 4; outside of Green we didn't have the firepower at 1 through 3 to make it work.

It's too bad Caruso lost his confidence during pre-season as well. Cook couldn't handle Beverly's defense, and neither Cook or Daniels can defend well. Terrible production out of our backup guards.

On a positive note; I was pleasantly surprised with Dwight Howard, again. He's sticking to his role and doing it well, and he was a positive out there on the floor for us, in spite of the problems we were having elsewhere.

And Green - wow. Once we get our team coordinated, when he has nights like he did last night we'll win most of these games.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:25 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
KL was a beast.

But IMO, the Clips bench beat the Lakers. 60 points.

And they have 100% continuity with Bev/Trez/Lou/Shamet so it's not surprising those guys flowed well. They basically replaced Gallo with KL last night.


Actually the Clippers are an anomaly. For 82 games they will out score every bench in the league. Lou Williams plays starter minutes and is one of the most prolific volume scorers ever. So let’s not compare benches...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject:

anth2000 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
KL was a beast.

But IMO, the Clips bench beat the Lakers. 60 points.

And they have 100% continuity with Bev/Trez/Lou/Shamet so it's not surprising those guys flowed well. They basically replaced Gallo with KL last night.


Actually the Clippers are an anomaly. For 82 games they will out score every bench in the league. Lou Williams plays starter minutes and is one of the most prolific volume scorers ever. So let’s not compare benches...


No, my point is that their strongest suit (as your correctly identify as the bench last year) is intact. They have a lot of continuity. KL slotted into Gallo's spot and he's obviously much more lethal than Gallo. Other returning players didn't have to adjust as much.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject:

Thanks DB.

What frustrated me was second chance opportunities and 2nd chance points. Many time the Clips were out hustling the Lakers to the rebounds and loose balls. Three Lakers would be in the restricted area waiting for the rebound, there would be a long rebound and the three Lakers would stand there while it bounced to a Clipper.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject:

CASEY P
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:38 am    Post subject:

The Centers
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject:

THANKS DB! I think DH's foul trouble (and AB's quick fouls) really hurt us.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:43 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
anth2000 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
KL was a beast.

But IMO, the Clips bench beat the Lakers. 60 points.

And they have 100% continuity with Bev/Trez/Lou/Shamet so it's not surprising those guys flowed well. They basically replaced Gallo with KL last night.


Actually the Clippers are an anomaly. For 82 games they will out score every bench in the league. Lou Williams plays starter minutes and is one of the most prolific volume scorers ever. So let’s not compare benches...


No, my point is that their strongest suit (as your correctly identify as the bench last year) is intact. They have a lot of continuity. KL slotted into Gallo's spot and he's obviously much more lethal than Gallo. Other returning players didn't have to adjust as much.


Got it. Makes sense.

I will say this, the Clippers have chemistry, I think that is a huge part of it. Guys Know their roles and know their teammates. I never underestimate that.

Still like that this was the first game....it should help set the stage.

I do think Kuzma and Rondo would have helped also...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:44 am    Post subject:

I enjoyed the first and third quarters.

The rest of the game, not so much.

Still it is a marathon season and it is obvious we have very talented players.

Unfortunately for us, so do a lot of other teams and certainly the Clippers are one of those teams.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject:

uggggg, our weakness is their strength.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject:

Love the Let's go Lakers chants all night, heard it loud on TNT, even Reggie Miller noted it
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject:

It also helps that the Clips clearly played this game like it was Game 7 of the Finals. Have to give them props for their energy and effort.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
It also helps that the Clips clearly played this game like it was Game 7 of the Finals. Have to give them props for their energy and effort.


We shoulda done the same, they made a statement
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malcolm
Sixth Man
Sixth Man


Joined: 10 Dec 2018
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Re: Perimeter Pressure

cheesehead88 wrote:
danzag wrote:
We need a true PG badly.


The problem is perimeter pressure

The way they are putting intense on ball pressure reminds me of Scottie Pippen vs Magic in the Finals

Bron can play point against a weak slow defender like DLO or Luka Donkic

Against Beverly and the very aggressive on ball pressure of the young Clipper legs there are two ways to beat pressure

You need to set hard back picks and off ball screens on Beverly’s man. Just over and over again. Just watch tapes of Karl Malone hammering Pippen over and over again in Jazz Bulls finals when Pippen trying to ball hawk Stockton. The Jazz almost did it. Pippen’s back on verge of collapsing. A 18 foot MJ jumper saved the Bulls.

The other way to beat ball pressure is run more Triangle pinch post action. Give and goes. Hard cutting.

Think Fisher and Harper making hard cuts to the corner. Horry and Kobe slashing to the hoop.

We aren’t getting a CP3 level point

Need more off ball screens or more triangle action


I'm sympathetic to your Triangle recommendation (maybe more than you can imagine).

But that's a political non-starter.

Any hint that Jackson and/or Rambis are trying to influence Vogel . . . is a PR nightmare.
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