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ReaListik
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
malcolm wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
You guys didn’t think the Lakers used Triangle?

I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.

Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.


My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.

It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.

It's a comprehensive basketball way of life . . .



Ok, just my opinion but I don’t think you can fully commit to the Triangle. It’s just too tough to play that way in today’s NBA.

I think that’s why you see the not all in approach. They would love Phil like success but they also see that system is outdated and creates spacing issues that are hard to overcome in 2019.


Yes, they ran some triangle elements a little. Some of the split cut action to start the second half for example. Some of their reads on certain sequences very much have the same types of actions and counters. They just are not very good at it right now.

As big a fan I was of the triangle, I don’t think it’s right for today’s game where it’s more effective to open up the floor and driving lanes for good chunks of the game. And when it got down to it in the fourth quarters of games, Phil would actually turn to the two-man game to close anyway.

The team is certainly built for the way the triangle didn’t need a playmaking PG. So I do think we will likely see some of those types of actions and penetration via the pass. But we can absolutely thrive if we can get consistent dribble penetration and pressure on the rim. That’s when we will be at our best. You’ve got to get LeBron attacking the paint with speed or attacking in two-man scenarios as much as you can.


Yeah that’s what I was noticing is LeBron not driving more
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:57 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
This game was about the benches disparity outmatching the disparity in superstar play (especially inside). Even though neither AD or Lebron had a strong game for their standards, the Lakers were in it and early on had a big lead. If AD and Lebron have a more typical shooting game, we win this one. The Clippers OTOH had all their strengths work for them - especially the bench.

Once the Clippers bench who have been playing together for years came in, and we did not have our 2 best bench perimeter players in Kuzma and Rondo, we had no chance to stay with them. Harrell and Williams just took over and took us to school. We needed AD and Lebron to do the same to their starting 5 and team, but AD only did for a short burst and Lebron was off (Lebron looked like he was trying to play Kobe's point guard to a big man role, something Lebron has to learn how to play, he has never catered a dominant bigman before).

The starters played well IMO. Considering that the Lakers did not have Lebron or AD going at the rate that you would like, and that the offense was really very simplistic.

To me the big wins in this game:

The way McGee and Howard played. They showed they will defend well. McGee had some exceptional moments early on. AD and our guards need to look for him on lobs and quick feeds in the basket. Same for Howard.

AD draws doubles and more - and will be a major factor inside. Teams will need to scramble and do a lot of helping. And when they do, this is when AD needs to learn to make the kick outs and the trust within the team will grow.

Danny Green is gonna be a reliable shooter who has to be respected.

Bradley is a legit 2-way guy. His defense was obvious. Need him to continue.

I like our starting 5 (with Dwight and McGee subbing in for each other) against anyone. With Dwight we have 6 really good reliable players. Now need to get Kuzma back, and Rondo. That will give us a reliable guard that can create plays, set up AD and others. And a shot creator, a wing that can match up with other scoring wings, most important give us some much needed punch off the bench.

I'm not bummed about this loss. I saw many good things. I like that Frank is using preseason and the RS to not try and win his job and the fans, instead on the longterm goal. I know pressure is immense on him, but I think he has a plan. The defensive effort of this group, is top notch. There is elite D written all over that top 6 guys (Dwight being the 6th). We need Kuzma back, we need Rondo to give us 18 minutes of high IQ play and active D. We will be a heck of a 2-way team.


So very true.
I would only add that I kept thinking how having Caruso in there instead of Cook would have made the difference. Better defender, slasher.... all that the Lakers guards lacked in this game.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:56 am    Post subject:

Vogel got so thoroughly outcoached.

In essence, Doc put in a faux starting lineup with Patterson/Zub.

He quickly inserted Lou/Trez (who played 37 minutes each as "subs").

Clips played a bit of rope a dope too.

Vogel kept the starters in but they needed rest, but Doc took out Kawhi early. So then our starters need a blow so when they sit out, Kawhi re-enters. Guess who gets to guard him? KCP.

Brilliant coaching by Doc. Vogel just stuck to his preordained rotations. Familiar?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:01 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
malcolm wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
You guys didn’t think the Lakers used Triangle?

I thought they did show some of it stylistically, but didn’t cut and cause confusion nearly enough. Clippers just waited for the right time to ambush the play and bring help.

Lakers support players didn’t move enough and outside of Green no one made the clippers pay from 3.


My opinion: Triangle is all or nothing.

It's not just some basketball plays that can be cut and paste.

It's a comprehensive basketball way of life . . .


Ok, just my opinion but I don’t think you can fully commit to the Triangle. It’s just too tough to play that way in today’s NBA.

I think that’s why you see the not all in approach. They would love Phil like success but they also see that system is outdated and creates spacing issues that are hard to overcome in 2019.


Yes, they ran some triangle elements a little. Some of the split cut action to start the second half for example. Some of their reads on certain sequences very much have the same types of actions and counters. They just are not very good at it right now.

As big a fan I was of the triangle, I don’t think it’s right for today’s game where it’s more effective to open up the floor and driving lanes for good chunks of the game. And when it got down to it in the fourth quarters of games, Phil would actually turn to the two-man game to close anyway.

The team is certainly built for the way the triangle didn’t need a playmaking PG. So I do think we will likely see some of those types of actions and penetration via the pass. But we can absolutely thrive if we can get consistent dribble penetration and pressure on the rim. That’s when we will be at our best. You’ve got to get LeBron attacking the paint with speed or attacking in two-man scenarios as much as you can.


No doubt, agree.

I would really go back to PnR to free up Lebron too. I didn’t like how Vogel basically said that they went away from it because of what the clippers were doing. Can’t let other teams dictate when you have Lebron and AD.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:23 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Vogel got so thoroughly outcoached.

In essence, Doc put in a faux starting lineup with Patterson/Zub.

He quickly inserted Lou/Trez (who played 37 minutes each as "subs").

Clips played a bit of rope a dope too.

Vogel kept the starters in but they needed rest, but Doc took out Kawhi early. So then our starters need a blow so when they sit out, Kawhi re-enters. Guess who gets to guard him? KCP.

Brilliant coaching by Doc. Vogel just stuck to his preordained rotations. Familiar?


Yinoma, Zubac played 9:30 mins.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:26 am    Post subject:

lakerican wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Vogel got so thoroughly outcoached.

In essence, Doc put in a faux starting lineup with Patterson/Zub.

He quickly inserted Lou/Trez (who played 37 minutes each as "subs").

Clips played a bit of rope a dope too.

Vogel kept the starters in but they needed rest, but Doc took out Kawhi early. So then our starters need a blow so when they sit out, Kawhi re-enters. Guess who gets to guard him? KCP.

Brilliant coaching by Doc. Vogel just stuck to his preordained rotations. Familiar?


Yinoma, Zubac played 9:30 mins.


1st quarter?

I think he played like two 4.5 minute stints. That's why he was a faux starter. Harrell came in quickly in the 1st.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:45 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Vogel got so thoroughly outcoached.

In essence, Doc put in a faux starting lineup with Patterson/Zub.

He quickly inserted Lou/Trez (who played 37 minutes each as "subs").

Clips played a bit of rope a dope too.

Vogel kept the starters in but they needed rest, but Doc took out Kawhi early. So then our starters need a blow so when they sit out, Kawhi re-enters. Guess who gets to guard him? KCP.

Brilliant coaching by Doc. Vogel just stuck to his preordained rotations. Familiar?

I think there is two types of coaching techniques. One who is always adjusting, trying to beat the other guy based on his adjustments in the game. The other coach believes in his game plan, and will not make the small change ahead of a bigger plan. Phil Jackson, the GOAT of NBA level coaching, was #2. There are many great coaches who do #1. However I respect a guy who is willing to be patient and stick to his longterm plan.

For example, going into the post. We all know and I'm sure Frank knows the criticism he will get. I am sure he knows the criticism he will get for Lebron playing the way he did. However there are two things being established there. This is AD's team the first 3 Qs and Lebron will facilitate. Lebron will pick his spots and then take over late in the 4th. Second, AD is and has to be dominant inside for us to win a ring.

The easiest thing for Frank to do is try and win the RS scores and get early success and be touted as a great hire and then flame out in the playoffs. Flip Saunders come to mind. In Detroit. Doc Rivers teams have failed multiple times in the playoffs after great RS outings. Other than 1 year in Boston, he has never won at the championship level. He is touted as this great coach, but I don't see it, come playoff time. He had CP3, DeAndre and Blake in their primes and they all massively underachieved. Frank had PG and a bunch of quality role players like Hibbert, Lance, West and made that Indiana team into a contender. The only star on that Indiana team was George. That was a contender and Eastern powerhouse only failing to beat Lebron in his prime on a loaded Heat/Cavs team.

Frank is getting very little respect around here and I understand that is the way it goes, but so far he is doing alot of the things I like and alot of coaching methods that I respect. He is not like Luke. I disagree completely. This is someone who knows the longterm plan. I watched his explanations for the offense in the game. It was spot on. He is aware the team doesn't know what to do when the opponent switches everything and they don't execute the screen rolls properly. That they don't understand even how to space out the floor well enough to get AD and Lebron the ball properly to go to work. He's a very smart dude. He knows the game and he's someone I fully believe will prove to be a lot better than most give him credit for.

Lebron said it best. There is no rivalry in their mind. They are fully into the process. A game against the Clippers was just as important as a game against the Jazz tomorrow. It is not about 1 particular game. It is about developing the team's execution and identity over the course of the season. I think we finally have something here after 8 years. Maybe I'm wrong. We will see.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:50 am    Post subject:

It's only one game. But it was not a good introduction for him.

I think/hope he will do better. But there simple adjustments he could have made.

Watching poor KCP get repeatedly flogged by KL for what felt like 3 hours was unacceptable as a coach.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject:

What would have a "great" coach then? Challenge Lebron to work his ass off in a game that counts for 1 W or 1 L and defend Kawhi? Because we all know the only player on this roster who can remotely defend Kawhi is Lebron. No one else has a chance match up wise. Lebron could at least contain him a bit. But we're already asking him to be the PG, and then now to ask a near 35 year old to do that, dunno.

I guess you could have asked Green to take him on but again Danny Green won't defend Kawhi all that better IMO and also has a size disadvantge.

I think they've identified a role for KCP to be the guy that takes on the tougher defensive assignments on the wing.

There are two guys who have the athleticism and size to match up with Kawhi on the roster and that is Lebron and Kuzma. Kuzma is not a defender but at least has the size and athleticism to match up. Lebron has the skill as well. But for obvious reasons ... neither were used.

I get it if we had Kuzma available, or if Lebron wanted Kawhi. Also the first few possessions, man KCP played him so tight. Kawhi made some incredible shots those first few shots on KCP, until he got going. Then when he got going KCP was (bleep).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
What would have a "great" coach then? Challenge Lebron to work his ass off in a game that counts for 1 W or 1 L and defend Kawhi? Because we all know the only player on this roster who can remotely defend Kawhi is Lebron. No one else has a chance match up wise. Lebron could at least contain him a bit. But we're already asking him to be the PG, and then now to ask a near 35 year old to do that, dunno.

I guess you could have asked Green to take him on but again Danny Green won't defend Kawhi all that better IMO and also has a size disadvantge.

I think they've identified a role for KCP to be the guy that takes on the tougher defensive assignments on the wing.

There are two guys who have the athleticism and size to match up with Kawhi on the roster and that is Lebron and Kuzma. Kuzma is not a defender but at least has the size and athleticism to match up. Lebron has the skill as well. But for obvious reasons ... neither were used.

I get it if we had Kuzma available, or if Lebron wanted Kawhi. Also the first few possessions, man KCP played him so tight. Kawhi made some incredible shots those first few shots on KCP, until he got going. Then when he got going KCP was (bleep).


You throw in a different look or scheme. Throw in Dudley to put some size on KL.

What he did was just watch KCP get eviscerated. That's going to hurt KCP's psyche IMO. As a coach, you put a player in the best position that can be, and that was not that.

Throw in LBJ for a few possessions to thwart KL.

As I pointed out above, Doc simply played his best players against the Lakers bench. We can't adjust our rotations a bit?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject:

I understand Vogel sticking to his plan for the larger picture and not giving into playing chess with Doc (which I think Frank is more than capable of) ... but at least yank KCP off Kawai when he was getting torched the entire time.

I only saw the 4th quarter because we're on vacation, but why didn't Dwight and Mcgee have a field day out there? At least on offense?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:08 am    Post subject:

Doc knows that his bench is his strength. He knows that's when he can win his games, based on last season. The Lakers OTOH, want to win their games based on AD destroying teams inside, Lebron from outside and in.

I understand what you're saying. Doc strategy was better in this game to win. Of course, that's true. However Doc's plan and team is a lot simpler and far ahead of where the Lakers are. Lakers are trying to establish an identity, style of playing and roles for each guy. Once that's done, you can then see what your team is like and truly evaluate your strengths and weaknesses.

Even so ... With all Doc did. In a bad shooting game from AD AND Lebron (AD mainly because he took too many jumpers), The game was tied at 80, late in the 3rd, correct? So the Lakers rebounded from that second Q strategy by Doc and were back in it. If AD makes his jumpers (or refrains from taking them and instead goes to the post more) and Lebron has a better shooting game, we win this one.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject:

KCP dying on KL reminded me of when Rocky didn’t throw in the towel as Drago killed Apollo Creed.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject:

Lakers playing even for most of the game with a brand new squad and coaching against a Clippers team (picked by my many to win a ring) that was together from last season except for an exceptional upgrade of Gallo with KL that was able to effectively execute a defensive scheme to limit the basic P&R offense displayed during the off season identified and focused provided many invaluable lessons to be learn by the team

Clippers played this game like it was the 7th game of The Finals. With Beverly being penalized for throwing the ball into the crowd displayed how much emphasis they placed on winning this game. Lakers see this as the first on a journey to win a RING!

With AD and LBJ coming off unusual seasons where they were not on the court for a much longer time period seemingly led them to not have the needed energy to effectively close games doing what they normally do - that will change at the end of the season

Game was the Clippers’ energy versus Lakers’ height

Did they play AD at the 5, given that D39 & JaVale didn’t play the entire game?

Anybody notice that AD was guarding KL for about 4-5 possessions in the 4th quarter

Interesting that with the Lakers’ height advantage in the front court, they were out rebounded (especially during critical times) - missed assignments?

Maybe a “High Low” offense with AD/LBJ as the triggers to find open shooters like Green/Kuz/Cook/Daniels is in the future

Clippers desperately wanted to win this game. Lakers desperately want to win a RING this season
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject:

Thanks DB!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
KCP dying on KL reminded me of when Rocky didn’t throw in the towel as Drago killed Apollo Creed.


Vogel just went full "If he dies, he dies"
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