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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
L4L wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


This is silly for obvious reasons. First, players can’t always consistently create the same type of shots on every possession. This is why guys who only finish dunks and lobs close to the rim always have the highest field goal percentage. It doesn’t mean if their role expanded they’d be able to keep that efficiency up. DeAndre Jordan has regularly been a league leader (or close) in field goal percentage but teams often played off him 5-10 feet daring him to shoot. This clogs up an offense.

There’s a lot of very obvious reasons why having skill and a variety of ways to score is important. Some methods work against certain defenders but not others. Some styles of play work against certain defenses but not others. Some styles of players work in one offense but not another. Some players have skill sets that mesh and some don’t.

The more skilled you are, the less your game is affected by conditional circumstances.

ANY player can improve their “efficiency” by just never shooting jumpers but this doesn’t mean this is the best way to have an “impact”. There’s no such thing as unstoppable move. Every player needs counters.


Bingo


Yeah. This is why in a specific situation where I need a bucket, or game winner, I am definitely going with the Kobester.

But we should also be mindful that this does not mean lower efficiency is necessarily better than higher efficiency either.
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NBAFAN24
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever
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NBAFAN24
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.


All-around perhaps I’d be inclined to agree. Again this is why context matters.

Kobe better at scoring. Lebron better at passing. So it all depends ... “at what” is which player better than the other.

These guys have two completely contrasting styles of play.
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NBAFAN24
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject:

I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player”
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player”


That is essentially how I, and probably most folks, feel actually.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.


All-around perhaps I’d be inclined to agree. Again this is why context matters.

Kobe better at scoring. Lebron better at passing. So it all depends ... “at what” is which player better than the other.

These guys have two completely contrasting styles of play.


Technically, Kobe isn’t better at scoring. Kobe is better at overall shooting(FT, mid-range, etc), more Iso moves credit to his superior footwork, but scoring is scoring, and LeBron has a higher PPG average on better FG and is soon to surpass Kobe on the all-time scoring list in fewer games played and fewer shot attempts. If LeBron chooses to be a scorer, he can be a deadly one, but he chooses to simply have a more consistent impact in all the facets of the game more so than Kobe ever did.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:57 am    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.


All-around perhaps I’d be inclined to agree. Again this is why context matters.

Kobe better at scoring. Lebron better at passing. So it all depends ... “at what” is which player better than the other.

These guys have two completely contrasting styles of play.


Technically, Kobe isn’t better at scoring. Kobe is better at overall shooting(FT, mid-range, etc), more Iso moves credit to his superior footwork, but scoring is scoring, and LeBron has a higher PPG average on better FG and is soon to surpass Kobe on the all-time scoring list in fewer games played and fewer shot attempts. If LeBron chooses to be a scorer, he can be a deadly one, but he chooses to simply have a more consistent impact in all the facets of the game more so than Kobe ever did.


I disagree. Kobe is better at scoring not necessarily in the aggregate but on a possession/game level. His ceiling for a scoring night is much higher than James’ is because he is the better scorer.

Part of being a scorer is having the mentality. Kobe is the epitome of a scorer.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject:

Btw, the reason I agree with that Lebron is the better all around player, is that even when he was putting up 30ppg seasons, he was also dishing out 7-8 assists and grabbing 7-8 boards and getting 2 steals and 1 block every game.

And that is the epitome of all around.
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NBAFAN24
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.


All-around perhaps I’d be inclined to agree. Again this is why context matters.

Kobe better at scoring. Lebron better at passing. So it all depends ... “at what” is which player better than the other.

These guys have two completely contrasting styles of play.


Technically, Kobe isn’t better at scoring. Kobe is better at overall shooting(FT, mid-range, etc), more Iso moves credit to his superior footwork, but scoring is scoring, and LeBron has a higher PPG average on better FG and is soon to surpass Kobe on the all-time scoring list in fewer games played and fewer shot attempts. If LeBron chooses to be a scorer, he can be a deadly one, but he chooses to simply have a more consistent impact in all the facets of the game more so than Kobe ever did.


I disagree. Kobe is better at scoring not necessarily in the aggregate but on a possession/game level. His ceiling for a scoring night is much higher than James’ is because he is the better scorer.

Part of being a scorer is having the mentality. Kobe is the epitome of a scorer.


I kind of agree. Kobe’s main mentality is to get as many buckets as possible and doesn’t shy away from shooting as many shots as possible. If LeBron had that type of mindset, he could’ve been putting up the type of PPG numbers that Harden is currently putting on much higher FG%. Yeah, Kobe is technically a hungrier scorer, but their end results from scoring is still same with LeBron being clearly better on paper.
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george w kush
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.


Ehh..disagree completely. Kobe was just better. Everyone’s got an opinion. Whatever


Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. The proof is in the pudding with most of the facts backing up LeBron as the better all-around player.


All-around perhaps I’d be inclined to agree. Again this is why context matters.

Kobe better at scoring. Lebron better at passing. So it all depends ... “at what” is which player better than the other.

These guys have two completely contrasting styles of play.


Technically, Kobe isn’t better at scoring. Kobe is better at overall shooting(FT, mid-range, etc), more Iso moves credit to his superior footwork, but scoring is scoring, and LeBron has a higher PPG average on better FG and is soon to surpass Kobe on the all-time scoring list in fewer games played and fewer shot attempts. If LeBron chooses to be a scorer, he can be a deadly one, but he chooses to simply have a more consistent impact in all the facets of the game more so than Kobe ever did.


I disagree. Kobe is better at scoring not necessarily in the aggregate but on a possession/game level. His ceiling for a scoring night is much higher than James’ is because he is the better scorer.

Part of being a scorer is having the mentality. Kobe is the epitome of a scorer.


I kind of agree. Kobe’s main mentality is to get as many buckets as possible and doesn’t shy away from shooting as many shots as possible. If LeBron had that type of mindset, he could’ve been putting up the type of PPG numbers that Harden is currently putting on much higher FG%. Yeah, Kobe is technically a hungrier scorer, but their end results from scoring is still same with LeBron being clearly better on paper.



Completely agree. LeBron just chooses not to hoist up as many shots as Kobe. And he will pass up Kobe in scoring this season despite being 2 years younger and taking 2000 less shots to do it. Just because Kobe has a higher ceiling than Lebron in getting more higher scoring games doesn’t eliminate 17 years of consistent work averaging a higher career PPG and FG% than Kobe.

The only reason Kobe gets labeled a better scorer is because that is primarily what he is known for. He doesn’t have the all around game LeBron has.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.



Don’t bother trying to explain this to them. They know the data doesn’t support Kobe so their knee jerk response to anything data related is usually a combination of ‘there’s more to basketball then numbers’ or stating that they play hoops at the local YMCA and you don’t so therefore they’re right and you’re wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
they play hoops at the local YMCA and you don’t so therefore they’re right and you’re wrong.


Yo!!! Lol lol, not sure about YMCA but LA fitness sounded exactly like LG
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Russell Westbrook is a better all-around player than LeBron James.

The stats don't lie, as you guys like to say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

143 career triple doubles for Westbrook (the GOD stat for ALL-AROUND), for #2 all-time behind Oscar. Will pass up Big O when his career is over and be so far ahead of everyone else, there will be no denying it.

LeBron only with 86...

Thank you guys for helping me see the light. Westbrook >>> LeBron as far as ALL-AROUND player. The stats don't lie.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player”


Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:29 pm    Post subject:

george w kush wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
Kobe is a better iso scorer, but LeBron is a better efficient scorer. If player A can give you the same scoring production on fewer shot attempts and on a higher FG%, then what major difference does it make if player A is less skilled than player B?


Well, you’d have to know a thing or two about basketball before trying to answer That question. For some, the nuance of the game eludes them.

Escape from the stats, my friend. Before it’s too late


More like escape from the stats when they don’t favor your favorite player. Yes, it’s not just about skills and stats, but overall production, impact, accolades, championships, etc, and when it comes down to it, LeBron has the edge and no amount of fan bias will change that.



Don’t bother trying to explain this to them. They know the data doesn’t support Kobe so their knee jerk response to anything data related is usually a combination of ‘there’s more to basketball then numbers’ or stating that they play hoops at the local YMCA and you don’t so therefore they’re right and you’re wrong.


I’m actually pretty confident that if the discourse in this thread reached the high level of math necessary to discuss the actual “data”, most wouldn’t be able to keep up. Most of the advances in basketball analytics have been made by PhDs and graduate students.

Hurr durr his fg% is higher is not analysis and people who specialize in math have gone out of their way to explain why. These same people, you know the ones actually making the stats, also freely admit to and catalogue the limitations of their metrics.

Even very high level of mathematicians are going to dismiss most analysis done of the basis of ppg, rpg, and apg for any two players even remotely in the same statistical universe.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
Russell Westbrook is a better all-around player than LeBron James.

The stats don't lie, as you guys like to say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

143 career triple doubles for Westbrook (the GOD stat for ALL-AROUND), for #2 all-time behind Oscar. Will pass up Big O when his career is over and be so far ahead of everyone else, there will be no denying it.

LeBron only with 86...

Thank you guys for helping me see the light. Westbrook >>> LeBron as far as ALL-AROUND player. The stats don't lie.


Yeah, Russell has more total triple doubles than LeBron. In terms of career averages, PER, FG%. Who’s the better player between the two?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player”


Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy.


There are levels to this. Scottie has never won an MVP and finals MVP. Scottie was a great sidekick, but Dirk won his title as the main guy. Besides being a better defender and having won five more rings, Dirk has better numbers and overall should be greater on the all-time list.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
Batguano wrote:
Russell Westbrook is a better all-around player than LeBron James.

The stats don't lie, as you guys like to say.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

143 career triple doubles for Westbrook (the GOD stat for ALL-AROUND), for #2 all-time behind Oscar. Will pass up Big O when his career is over and be so far ahead of everyone else, there will be no denying it.

LeBron only with 86...

Thank you guys for helping me see the light. Westbrook >>> LeBron as far as ALL-AROUND player. The stats don't lie.


Yeah, Russell has more total triple doubles than LeBron. In terms of career averages, PER, FG%. Who’s the better player between the two?


So now it's career averages? Ah you are precious.  Funny how just a couple of posts you were criticizing people for dismissing stats when they don't fit their agenda...
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
Batguano wrote:
NBAFAN24 wrote:
I know some of y’all want to come out and say it, so here’s your chance. I’ll help y’all out. Say it with me, “Kobe is my favorite player and more exciting to watch, but LeBron is a better all-around player”


Scottie Pippen is better all-around than Dirk, than doesn't make him better than Dirk. Nice logic, buddy.


There are levels to this. Scottie has never won an MVP and finals MVP. Scottie was a great sidekick, but Dirk won his title as the main guy. Besides being a better defender and having won five more rings, Dirk has better numbers and overall should be greater on the all-time list.


Hakeem is better all-around than Shaq? So dat make him betta, right...?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject:

What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:52 pm    Post subject:

I have Lebron better than Kobe. I currently have him in the top 3 all time with Kareem and Jordan. He recently passed Magic and Wilt in my top 5 all time.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject:

NBAFAN24 wrote:
What an insult to compare Westbrook to LeBron. Westbrook is the epitome of a player who stat-pad. One of the lowest IQ and least efficient superstars ever. A guy that couldn’t lead his team to the second round as the “main guy” is being compared to LeBron.


Ah. So when the stats dont favor your boy, it's stat-padding. How convenient...

That guy played in the brutal Western Conference his entire career. You know that same conference LeBron missed the playoffs in his first year and all of a sudden couldn't carry scrub teams like he's known to to the playoffs and couldn't afford to take his 15+ games off to rest and "recharge" (HGH)
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