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LongBeachPoly
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 Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | The gunmen? A transient, with multiple arrests and warrants. So why do we protect this "bad guy's" 2A rights? |
Actually it's our own rights that we are protecting. That goes with anything.
Why did you highlight that this guy was a transient? |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Fwiw, I think the second amendment argument is the wrong one to have. As it is both constitutional law, and we live in the real world (the same argument I have against total disarmament and non intervention as a nation), the notion becomes more how do we best mate that right to the public safety. So it becomes about what legitimate purposes we have for weapons, which ones are necessary and proper for those purposes, and context like urban environments vs a ranch (a rifle is a fine tool on a ranch and a dead bystander waiting to happen in an urban townhouse).
The fact is we don’t need to protect ourselves from government tyranny via weapons, or else we’d have to logically accept that we should have the right to radar guided shoulder fired surface to air missiles for shooting down drones, and anti tank weapons, etc. we accept some limits. So why not simply limit weapons and the carry of them by context? And there is basically no context where the assault rifle can it be replaced with a more appropriate firearm that will satisfy the legitimate purpose and protect public safety.
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adkindo
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Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Thugnomoe wrote: | https://twitter.com/GrantB911/status/1211384089019858946
if there weren't good guys with guns.. this would have been a massacre.
you won't see this on main stream media.
Also.. the "weapons of war" talking point is nothing but anti 2A garbage.. you realize they carry pistols in war right?
I own an AR15.. its not a big scary military weapon of war. its the most popular rifle. mainly because its customizable. and it basically shoots a 22size round. |
someone got away with this in Texas and killed a lot of people a few years ago....It likely will not happen in one of these rural churches in Texas again. I wish other common targets took more proactive measures like rural Texas churches. |
The danger of the “good guy with a gun” is manifested in more bullets flying in multiple directions (imagine being in a mall and someone opens up with a gun and four more guys open up from other locations), where even highly trained police and military have a hard time avoiding friendly targets, and in the problem for police responders, both from the standpoint above, and identifying the “bad guys” from the “good guys”. Sad as it may be, a site that considers itself a vulnerable target is better off hiring security than relying on unorganized civilian response. |
It was a former FBI agent that put the guy down, and I do think you need people with more than an elementary instruction course. Also, most vulnerable targets do not have the resources to hire armed security. I grew up in a rural church, and there was not even money for a full pastor salary....and if an AC unit went down, it required some significant searching for funds to replace. Many of these churches have a large low income membership. Even in your worst case example, is it not preferable to lose a person to friendly fire and prevent 10, 15, 20 or more casualties from an armed gunman?
Btw, I spoke to my father last night about this story and he attends a smaller church. He told me his church has members on the security team, and some of them that are deemed qualified are or can be armed, while others are not. Only those on the security council know who is armed (he is not on the council, and claims to not know), and the weapons are owned and secured at the church. The security team arrives first and leaves last...so the armed members do not come and go with weapons. I asked him how many he thought was armed....2? 5? He claimed he did not know, and said maybe it is only 1 or it could be 5 or 6. I found their process interesting....similar to maybe the whole armed air marshall program where we could never have enough on each flight, but the threat of one being on a flight can be effective. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | Fwiw, I think the second amendment argument is the wrong one to have. As it is both constitutional law, and we live in the real world (the same argument I have against total disarmament and non intervention as a nation), the notion becomes more how do we best mate that right to the public safety. So it becomes about what legitimate purposes we have for weapons, which ones are necessary and proper for those purposes, and context like urban environments vs a ranch (a rifle is a fine tool on a ranch and a dead bystander waiting to happen in an urban townhouse).
The fact is we don’t need to protect ourselves from government tyranny via weapons, or else we’d have to logically accept that we should have the right to radar guided shoulder fired surface to air missiles for shooting down drones, and anti tank weapons, etc. we accept some limits. So why not simply limit weapons and the carry of them by context? And there is basically no context where the assault rifle can it be replaced with a more appropriate firearm that will satisfy the legitimate purpose and protect public safety. |
As pointed out earlier, you are trying to make an argument unrelated to 2A. If you want to change 2A to be about public safety, then you have to change 2A. "Government tyranny" or abuse that citizens must protect themselves from is not only the national level, but more likely at the local levels where they are armed with assault rifles. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | Fwiw, I think the second amendment argument is the wrong one to have. As it is both constitutional law, and we live in the real world (the same argument I have against total disarmament and non intervention as a nation), the notion becomes more how do we best mate that right to the public safety. So it becomes about what legitimate purposes we have for weapons, which ones are necessary and proper for those purposes, and context like urban environments vs a ranch (a rifle is a fine tool on a ranch and a dead bystander waiting to happen in an urban townhouse).
The fact is we don’t need to protect ourselves from government tyranny via weapons, or else we’d have to logically accept that we should have the right to radar guided shoulder fired surface to air missiles for shooting down drones, and anti tank weapons, etc. we accept some limits. So why not simply limit weapons and the carry of them by context? And there is basically no context where the assault rifle can it be replaced with a more appropriate firearm that will satisfy the legitimate purpose and protect public safety. |
As pointed out earlier, you are trying to make an argument unrelated to 2A. If you want to change 2A to be about public safety, then you have to change 2A. "Government tyranny" or abuse that citizens must protect themselves from is not only the national level, but more likely at the local levels where they are armed with assault rifles. |
Im not trying to change the 2a to public safety. I’m saying we already acknowledge public safety concerns in the current application of it. And we are way past the days where an assault rifle will preserve your rights vs any level of government.
Other than examples like the guys who illegally grazed public lands taking up arms against the feds and the feds choosing not to drone strike or otherwise wipe them out, I’m having a hard time finding citizens needing and using assault weapons against local government, much less successfully. It’s an old romantic fantasy that just doesn’t apply in the modern age.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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We place limits on enumerated rights all the time in the name of the good and safety of the public. You can’t own a rocket launcher, I can’t yell fire in a theater.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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#1 How does the UK not slip into massive Anarchy and killings
90% of the police don't even use guns, correct?
I blame Hollywood as much as NRA for fueling the coolness of ridiculous weapons of mass shootings |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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#2 Good guys with guns. 8 good guys. So (bleep) unqualified to do their jobs 103 Bullets didn't kill their target
Police Officers Who Shot at Two Innocent Women 103 Times Won't Be Fired
The eight Los Angeles police officers who shot at two women over 100 times will not lose their jobs. They won't even be suspended. They'll just get some additional training.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/02/police-officers-who-shot-two-innocent-women-103-times-wont-be-fired/357771/ |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The gunmen? A transient, with multiple arrests and warrants. So why do we protect this "bad guy's" 2A rights? |
Actually it's our own rights that we are protecting. That goes with anything.
Why did you highlight that this guy was a transient? |
You highlighted it, not me. The guy literally had been arrested in multiple states, for various crimes and was not a member of the community. He was transient. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | vanexelent wrote: | | The gunmen? A transient, with multiple arrests and warrants. So why do we protect this "bad guy's" 2A rights? |
Actually it's our own rights that we are protecting. That goes with anything.
Why did you highlight that this guy was a transient? |
You highlighted it, not me. The guy literally had been arrested in multiple states, for various crimes and was not a member of the community. He was transient. |
Maybe I’ll rephrase.
In your debate/argument about 2A rights, what’s the significance of pointing out that a person is a transient. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in?
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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"Celebratory Gunfire" kills 61 year old nurse in Texas on NYE
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1109311
What if we registered every bullet owned so (bleep) like the shooter can be arrested
Celebratory???*infinity |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father. |
True, but even those who save others in self defense situations often struggle with it.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | "Celebratory Gunfire" kills 61 year old nurse in Texas on NYE
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1109311
What if we registered every bullet owned so (bleep) like the shooter can be arrested
Celebratory???*infinity |
I wonder what effect this will have on any of the arseholes who lived in the vicinity who "celebrated" the new year by being so utterly stupid in firing into the sky.
I suppose I could say, the only way to stop a good person without a gun is by a stupid guy with a gun, but I don't see the world so simply.
I guess I could also say guns don't kill, arseholes do, but if that is the case, with some large percent (maybe 40 or more) of the population that fits this description, we're in for a world of hurt. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | We place limits on enumerated rights all the time in the name of the good and safety of the public. You can’t own a rocket launcher, I can’t yell fire in a theater. |
in a crowded theater....I am pretty sure you are allowed to walk into any empty theater and scream fire.  |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
guessing from what I have always heard is nobody knows until they go through it. Clearly if the story reported is 100% accurate, I doubt she ever regrets it, but that is not to say the entire event and/or taking a life could have an effect on her for life.....or maybe it will not. I have doubts I would be effected very much directly about the person killed, but I likely would very much indirectly as I learned about who the person was.....even most bad guys are very good guys to some people as a dad, son, brother, friend, etc. For example, if I killed a 30 year old guy to protect my family, and learned he had 2 small children, I would clearly have sympathy for the children who lost their father. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father. |
True, but even those who save others in self defense situations often struggle with it. |
It has always troubled me that so many people are perfectly fine with the taking of life as long as it is not their own or a loved owns. I have known a few people, both friend and family, who have killed under justifiable circumstances and even so it has had a huge impact on them emotionally for life.
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You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
guessing from what I have always heard is nobody knows until they go through it. Clearly if the story reported is 100% accurate, I doubt she ever regrets it, but that is not to say the entire event and/or taking a life could have an effect on her for life.....or maybe it will not. I have doubts I would be effected very much directly about the person killed, but I likely would very much indirectly as I learned about who the person was.....even most bad guys are very good guys to some people as a dad, son, brother, friend, etc. For example, if I killed a 30 year old guy to protect my family, and learned he had 2 small children, I would clearly have sympathy for the children who lost their father. |
It was a home invasion where the assailants were a threat to the people living there. They came there expecting to make them victims and instead their supposed victims fought back. If they were not up to no good this would have never happened. |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Post traumatic stress syndrome is a real thing. About a third of combat soldiers experience it and they are they trained to shoot and kill. |
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22
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father. |
True, but even those who save others in self defense situations often struggle with it. |
Same experience with women who go through with abortions. Lots of guilt and emotions to deal with after.
I doubt it’s ever easy to deal with taking a life, even if it’s self defense. Some can probably handle it better than others |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father. |
True, but even those who save others in self defense situations often struggle with it. |
Luckily I have never been in that situation
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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 sucks and how dumb have hunters become
Just too easy to get a gun and be a (bleep) at the same time. Why can't they sight the target and then shoot?
Father and 9-year-old daughter killed while hunting. They were mistaken for deer.
https://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Father-and-9-year-old-daughter-killed-while-hunting-They-were-mistaken-for-deer-566706341.html
30-year-old Kim Drawdy and his 9-year-old daughter Lauren were hunting near their home in Walterboro, South Carolina, CNN reports.
That's when four hunters shot them after mistaking the father and daughter for deer, according to state’s DNR. |
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24Legend007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | very quick thinking by the wife. I would have to assume she was comfortable handling the firearm and has fired that weapon many times in the past. |
More families and wives should be able to do this. |
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24Legend007
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| Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I wonder what affect the taking of a life will have on the women when it sets in? |
Probably satisfaction that she saved the life of her husband and that her child will have a father. |
True, but even those who save others in self defense situations often struggle with it. |
It has always troubled me that so many people are perfectly fine with the taking of life as long as it is not their own or a loved owns. I have known a few people, both friend and family, who have killed under justifiable circumstances and even so it has had a huge impact on them emotionally for life. |
Unfortunately we live in the world. Bad things happen or things we perceive to be bad. You hope bad things wont happen to you, but they will in some form or another. It's life, lessons to be learned. Someone who has taken a life was suppose to. It was what life has presented, it is the lesson they have been forced to learn. If they werent suppose to take a life it would not have happened.
I dont jump for joy that this person had to take a life, I am grateful she was able to protect her family, it is the circle of life. |
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