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| Who was the better player? |
| LeBron |
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43% |
[ 21 ] |
| Magic |
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56% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 48 |
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BILBJH
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jul 2020
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 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: |
Players like Magic and Bird... were more skilled players. LBJ combines superior athleticism and size with very good playmaking ability but anyone who grew up watching both can see the difference in skill. |
I judge a player on what he accomplishes. It doesn't really matter to me whether those accomplishments are due to their skill or their athletic ability. One isn't it inherently better or more important than the other.
| BILBJH wrote: |
It's like comparing Tom Brady with Michael Vick... or maybe Elway since he won a couple rings.
Obviously Vick is the superior athlete... but does anyone think he's a better quarterback or player than Tom Brady?
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The comparison falls flat for me. Brady won 6 rings, three MVPs, threw for 74,500 yards and 541 touchdowns. Elway won 2 rings, one MVP and threw for 51,500 yards, and 300 touchdowns.
Set aside the personal subjective opinions. By every tangible measure, Brady blows Elway away. Not even close. And forget about Vick.
That isn’t the case with Magic and Lebron. They both have great tangible measures, but you can argue which one is better. So I don't see that as a Brady vs. Elway or Vick situation. |
The question was who was the better player?
I chose Vick and then mentioned Elway because they were good quarterbacks who were better athletes. Otherwise I would have chosen Manning or Marino.
I agree Vick never reached his full potential so that's why I included Elway.
I also agree that it doesn't matter how you achieve your goal, as long as you achieve it... so whether you are a power player like Shaq or Jim Brown... or a finesse player like Magic or Barry Sanders, they are legitimate ways of being a great player.
But Magic was great from day one, winning the title without the use of one of the top five players in NBA history against another great Dr. J.
He wins a title against Bird in college at age 19
Wins a title without Kareem scoring 42 and getting 15 rebounds at 20 years old
LBJ scored 45 points at 21 years old in the playoffs against a journeyman filled Wizards team that was barely over .500
Magic beats the Sixers again at the age of 22 once again against Dr. J
LBJ gets to the finals at 22 but is swept by the Spurs.
Now obviously the Lakers are a better team but LBJ shot 41% while Magic shot 53% averaging 11 rebounds per game and 3 steals!
LBJ his entire career never averaged more than 2.1 steals in the playoffs
Magic averaged 3.1, 2.7, 2.9 at the ages of 20, 21, 22
Fast forward to 1985.
Magic wins the title against the Celtics at the age of 25 averaging 15 assists a game.
LBJ at 25 beats the .500 Bulls and then gets shut down by the Celtics that we would eventually face for the title. He averages 7.6 assists which is half of what Magic had.
LBJ never averaged more than 9 assists in the playoffs which he did once... Magic averaged 12 ten seasons in a row. Magic had a better FG and FT%
I get that LBJ was a better defender but Magic still averaged more steals.
LBJ then makes his Frankenstein team... and as someone else said... he would have only won one out of four if it wasn't for Ray Allen.
Magic's final title is at the age of 28 against a Detroit team stacked with Dumars, Dantley, Rodman, Isiah while playing with a prime Worthy but also a 40 year old Kareem
LBJ's wins a title as well against a stacked Spurs team.
At this point LBJ begins to pass Magic as tendinitis and HIV eventually becomes too much for him to overcome.
It was frustrating because I think if he stayed healthy, he could have beaten MJ at least once.
LBJ's career surpasses him from this point
From 20 to 28... Magic was a better player than LBJ. Anyone who watched the Lakers back then knows Magic didn't move well as he got older and the HIV was the nail in his career's coffin.
So again... longevity and numbers... I can see how you'd go with LBJ.
But Magic at his peak was a better player. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Difference here is I've been watching LeBron since he was 15/16, who was pretty much Kobe size at that age.
Nevermind the fact LBJ was a 5-star high school Wide Receiver.
Then there's the athletic difference.
It's not like LBJ had all world training prior to the NBA.
FWIW, Magic was in the same era as MJ gaining strength in the late 80s to go against the Pistons. Didn't really do that.
| Quote: | Do people think Hakeem couldn't compete today?
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Who in the world said that? |
It's like comparing Tom Brady with Michael Vick... or maybe Elway since he won a couple rings.
Obviously Vick is the superior athlete... but does anyone think he's a better quarterback or player than Tom Brady?
LBJ is amazing... he's unprecedented in playing at such a high level for so long... probably surpassing Kareem at this point.
Players like Magic and Bird... were more skilled players. LBJ combines superior athleticism and size with very good playmaking ability but anyone who grew up watching both can see the difference in skill. I just said I thought Shaq was more dominant than Kobe, but I'd never say he's a more skilled player. And I like LBJ... I disliked him when he did the Decision press conference and talked crap about how the average person had to go back to their mundane lives, while he got to go back to his life of luxury... but then I started to enjoy him when he went back to Cleveland and got them the title, and of course now that he's a Laker.
If LBJ won us a couple titles... maybe I could start thinking about him in a different light but it would still be more of being impressed by his durability and longevity as opposed to his skill. Did Magic join together with Bird and Barkley and try to form a super team? Did Magic trade away his entire team to acquire one of his rivals? Sure he drove Westhead out... but he pretty much won with whoever he played with at the time... and I think other than Kareem, it was more that he elevated everyone around him. |
LBJ didn't have a super team and still beat them.
We can clearly disagree. You're trying to assume context by era and I said Magic had some of the same available tools, but didn't really use them.
I'd even argue that Magic looked more skilled from the jump because 80s defenses are nothing to the physiques and physical nature of hoops in 2003. Not in terms of fighting, but did we even talk about tagging a roll man in the 80s?
I would never make a football comparison of LBJ to Vick and Brady to Magic, regardless of context. However, Magic had elite talent around him. Brady, from my understanding, not so much.
If you can see the differences in playmaking, maybe consider the difference in how modern defenses took a lot of that away too.
Then consider the defensive end.
LeBron now is doing what Magic did in 1991, except he's stopping Kawhi and PG defensively, at a more advanced age than Magic in '91.
Does that say enough? Or do you just need the results to justify it?
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BILBJH
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Joined: 23 Jul 2020
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | Difference here is I've been watching LeBron since he was 15/16, who was pretty much Kobe size at that age.
Nevermind the fact LBJ was a 5-star high school Wide Receiver.
Then there's the athletic difference.
It's not like LBJ had all world training prior to the NBA.
FWIW, Magic was in the same era as MJ gaining strength in the late 80s to go against the Pistons. Didn't really do that.
| Quote: | Do people think Hakeem couldn't compete today?
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Who in the world said that? |
It's like comparing Tom Brady with Michael Vick... or maybe Elway since he won a couple rings.
Obviously Vick is the superior athlete... but does anyone think he's a better quarterback or player than Tom Brady?
LBJ is amazing... he's unprecedented in playing at such a high level for so long... probably surpassing Kareem at this point.
Players like Magic and Bird... were more skilled players. LBJ combines superior athleticism and size with very good playmaking ability but anyone who grew up watching both can see the difference in skill. I just said I thought Shaq was more dominant than Kobe, but I'd never say he's a more skilled player. And I like LBJ... I disliked him when he did the Decision press conference and talked crap about how the average person had to go back to their mundane lives, while he got to go back to his life of luxury... but then I started to enjoy him when he went back to Cleveland and got them the title, and of course now that he's a Laker.
If LBJ won us a couple titles... maybe I could start thinking about him in a different light but it would still be more of being impressed by his durability and longevity as opposed to his skill. Did Magic join together with Bird and Barkley and try to form a super team? Did Magic trade away his entire team to acquire one of his rivals? Sure he drove Westhead out... but he pretty much won with whoever he played with at the time... and I think other than Kareem, it was more that he elevated everyone around him. |
LBJ didn't have a super team and still beat them.
We can clearly disagree. You're trying to assume context by era and I said Magic had some of the same available tools, but didn't really use them.
I'd even argue that Magic looked more skilled from the jump because 80s defenses are nothing to the physiques and physical nature of hoops in 2003. Not in terms of fighting, but did we even talk about tagging a roll man in the 80s?
I would never make a football comparison of LBJ to Vick and Brady to Magic, regardless of context. However, Magic had elite talent around him. Brady, from my understanding, not so much.
If you can see the differences in playmaking, maybe consider the difference in how modern defenses took a lot of that away too.
Then consider the defensive end.
LeBron now is doing what Magic did in 1991, except he's stopping Kawhi and PG defensively, at a more advanced age than Magic in '91.
Does that say enough? Or do you just need the results to justify it? |
Even if you factor in the fact that teams in the eighties averaged 24-25 assists per game, vs. 21 or 22 during defensive eras... (it's back up to 24 in 2019 btw) Magic was double LBJ during the playoffs.
I've already conceded that LBJ was by far the better athlete... yet still when Magic was young he averaged more steals and still has more by a slight margin.
When someone brought up the fact that people are bigger and faster... I just looked up the stats out of curiosity... fully expecting to see a crazy difference in numbers.
As I already pointed out... it's not as dramatic as one might think.
And overall due to diet and sedentary living thanks to the net and video games... people are in much worse physical condition in general. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Even if you factor in the fact that teams in the eighties averaged 24-25 assists per game, vs. 21 or 22 during defensive eras... (it's back up to 24 in 2019 btw) Magic was double LBJ during the playoffs. |
Speaks to Magic's level of teammates >>>>> LeBron's.
| Quote: | | I've already conceded that LBJ was by far the better athlete... yet still when Magic was young he averaged more steals and still has more by a slight margin. |
You're going to criticize 0.3% difference in career steal percentage?
Since you're a stat guy, how about some advanced stats?
Magic's best career year of VORP is 8.9 in 1989-1990
LeBron's better VORP years and scores:
'12-'13 - 9.9
'09-'10 - 10.3
'08-'09 - 11.8
'07-'08 - 9.8
'05-'06 - 9.4
'04-'05 - 9.1
Imagine in the context of Value Over Replacement Player, LeBron's 2nd year > Magic's best year of all time.
BPM (Box Plus Minus) to gauge impact.
Magic crossed 10, once.
LeBron crossed 10, 5 times.
LeBron's current year, at age 34, is like Magic's 1983-1988, usually considered his peak years.
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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LeBron's scoring efficiency improved when he moved to the Heat but he didn't get more assists. It went from average to more like Magic's
Magic shot 13 shots per game... LBJ shot 19 or 20 shots per game.
Doesn't take a math genius to see with more shots, Magic would have scored a similar amount even with the loss of efficiency due to forcing up poor shots.
If your thesis that better players translates into more assists... that didn't happen in LBJ's case. He's been about 7 per game his whole career.
Could he have dropped more dimes? Sure... exactly as Magic could have scored more.
Again, I think LBJ is a great player... I've defended his impact playing on a poor team in the past when comparing him to AD... who didn't take a poor team to the playoffs often.
I just think you are underselling Magic's ability |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: |
From 20 to 28... Magic was a better player than LBJ. Anyone who watched the Lakers back then knows Magic didn't move well as he got older and the HIV was the nail in his career's coffin.
So again... longevity and numbers... I can see how you'd go with LBJ.
But Magic at his peak was a better player. |
Both Lebron and Magic were great out of the box. To me, Magic's edge from ages 20 to 28 is really more about team success, but as we all know he had a much better team around him for most of those years than Lebron had around him. So a lot of this seems apples to oranges to me.
Generally I rank Magic higher, but I candidly admit that's probably due to nostalgia for the 80s Lakers. If I am being objective, I could go either way. They both have great resumes. Ranking them just depends on which criteria you want to give more weight too. Because of that, I could probably flipflop on how I rank them depending on my mood that day.
Today, I'll say Magic. But it's not carved in stone. Tomorrow, it could be Lebron. They are that close to me. |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Not for me. Career low playoff vs. Pippen. Once Chicago figured that out, everyone else had to pick up the slack.
But isn't the point of stats to show how impactful a player is? If so, BPM and VORP imho, better describe that, than baseline scoring, assists, etc.
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Runway8
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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As great as Lebron is, he's kinda bland. Magic Johnson made your jaws drop. Not the fancy razzle dazzle inefficient turnover stuff. He made your jaws dropped while playing efficient basketball. He was amazing. If there is one player in history that I could make 25 yrs old again, it's Magic Johnson. And if there's one GM in NBA history I'd like to forget, it's Magic Johnson. 
A Little Reminder... |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | As great as Lebron is, he's kinda bland. Magic Johnson made your jaws drop. Not the fancy razzle dazzle inefficient turnover stuff. He made your jaws dropped while playing efficient basketball. He was amazing. If there is one player in history that I could make 25 yrs old again, it's Magic Johnson. And if there's one GM in NBA history I'd like to forget, it's Magic Johnson. |
Oddly enough it is that turnover stuff, exceptional high risk, that made him less overall impactful as a player.
Bordering 20% TO rate is almost unforgiveable out of a guard; barely acceptable for non-ball-handling bigs, especially on just 23 or so USG.
Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.
Career LBJ is 13.2% on 31.5%USG.
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Not for me. Career low playoff vs. Pippen. Once Chicago figured that out, everyone else had to pick up the slack.
But isn't the point of stats to show how impactful a player is? If so, BPM and VORP imho, better describe that, than baseline scoring, assists, etc. |
Are you old enough to have seen all of Magic's early games?
I would feel as though he could win any game on any given day. And he'd turn it up in the playoffs. People talk about Playoff Rondo... but Magic took playoff Rondo to a ridiculous level.
LBJ obviously has had a great career... but I never felt like he was controlling the league as much as we all thought he might.
When the Big three went to Miami and did the "not one not two not three thing"... I was angry because I actually thought they would dominate the league... but he played nervous and tentative at times, needing players like Ray Allen to bail him out and he never reached the heights of Showtime or the Last Dance Bulls... maybe not even the Popovich's Spurs.
It was like watching Ali brag... and then get knocked out half the time.
Magic never looked overwhelmed... not until age and injury had caught up with him. And he still put up 20 dimes on the Bulls.
Now if LBJ writes that last chapter and wills the Lakers to two more championships... maybe I'll have to change my opinion... but it would take that type of narrative to change my mind. Not because he's a Laker but because of doing this at his age.
I'm not dismissing your VORP/RPM argument but although I think they have some value, I think they miss the intangibles, the way they rank AD over someone like Dame. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Cooper wasn't on that team; Byron Scott was our starting shooting guard. Worthy and Scott were available for the first four games of that series. Even with them playing, we went down 1-3 with losses by 21, 8 and 15 points (we won game 1 by 2 points). We lost the 5th game without them. So we weren't close to winning. |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Cooper wasn't on that team; Byron Scott was our starting shooting guard. Worthy and Scott were available for the first four games of that series. Even with them playing, we went down 1-3 with losses by 21, 8 and 15 points (we won game 1 by 2 points). We lost the 5th game without them. So we weren't close to winning. |
I saw the series... and Magic was old with arthritic knees and Worthy was hurt and Cooper was retired maybe.
I'm saying you are going to have a terrible result if Byron is guarding Michael.
The Bulls were a non factor when the Lakers and Celtics were young and healthy. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Not for me. Career low playoff vs. Pippen. Once Chicago figured that out, everyone else had to pick up the slack.
But isn't the point of stats to show how impactful a player is? If so, BPM and VORP imho, better describe that, than baseline scoring, assists, etc. |
Are you old enough to have seen all of Magic's early games?
I would feel as though he could win any game on any given day. And he'd turn it up in the playoffs. People talk about Playoff Rondo... but Magic took playoff Rondo to a ridiculous level.
LBJ obviously has had a great career... but I never felt like he was controlling the league as much as we all thought he might.
When the Big three went to Miami and did the "not one not two not three thing"... I was angry because I actually thought they would dominate the league... but he played nervous and tentative at times, needing players like Ray Allen to bail him out and he never reached the heights of Showtime or the Last Dance Bulls... maybe not even the Popovich's Spurs.
It was like watching Ali brag... and then get knocked out half the time.
Magic never looked overwhelmed... not until age and injury had caught up with him. And he still put up 20 dimes on the Bulls.
Now if LBJ writes that last chapter and wills the Lakers to two more championships... maybe I'll have to change my opinion... but it would take that type of narrative to change my mind. Not because he's a Laker but because of doing this at his age.
I'm not dismissing your VORP/RPM argument but although I think they have some value, I think they miss the intangibles, the way they rank AD over someone like Dame. |
Yes I am.
And I get that you're a new poster on here, but it's also 2 decades of talent evaluation.
But if you're not seeing how much the league has changed just within the past 5 years or so, I can't really help you understand.
Like, you're hyped about 20 assists vs. the Bulls in which the Lakers lost.
But not hyped about LeBron and the Cavs, beating the best regular season 73-9 team with the 19th best ORtg and 7th best DRting of All Time?
I don't get it.
| Quote: | | I think they have some value, I think they miss the intangibles, the way they rank AD over someone like Dame. |
Wait. Not only did AD get 42 on a DPOY candidate, but he basically played him off the floor and out defended him, and you think something like that is a possible intangibles argument?
Dame is a killer. He also only plays 1 side of the floor.
VORP and BPM are measured on the same stat scale. LBJ was better at it.
Intangibles? Aren't the Lakers #1, in year 1, on a brand new roster? Under the leadership of which player?
I love Magic. I'd buy it if you're excited about how he plays. But if you want to go by stats, this ain't it.
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Not for me. Career low playoff vs. Pippen. Once Chicago figured that out, everyone else had to pick up the slack.
But isn't the point of stats to show how impactful a player is? If so, BPM and VORP imho, better describe that, than baseline scoring, assists, etc. |
Are you old enough to have seen all of Magic's early games?
I would feel as though he could win any game on any given day. And he'd turn it up in the playoffs. People talk about Playoff Rondo... but Magic took playoff Rondo to a ridiculous level.
LBJ obviously has had a great career... but I never felt like he was controlling the league as much as we all thought he might.
When the Big three went to Miami and did the "not one not two not three thing"... I was angry because I actually thought they would dominate the league... but he played nervous and tentative at times, needing players like Ray Allen to bail him out and he never reached the heights of Showtime or the Last Dance Bulls... maybe not even the Popovich's Spurs.
It was like watching Ali brag... and then get knocked out half the time.
Magic never looked overwhelmed... not until age and injury had caught up with him. And he still put up 20 dimes on the Bulls.
Now if LBJ writes that last chapter and wills the Lakers to two more championships... maybe I'll have to change my opinion... but it would take that type of narrative to change my mind. Not because he's a Laker but because of doing this at his age.
I'm not dismissing your VORP/RPM argument but although I think they have some value, I think they miss the intangibles, the way they rank AD over someone like Dame. |
Yes I am.
And I get that you're a new poster on here, but it's also 2 decades of talent evaluation.
But if you're not seeing how much the league has changed just within the past 5 years or so, I can't really help you understand.
Like, you're hyped about 20 assists vs. the Bulls in which the Lakers lost.
But not hyped about LeBron and the Cavs, beating the best regular season 73-9 team with the 19th best ORtg and 7th best DRting of All Time?
I don't get it. |
I was rooting for the Cavs to beat the Warriors but they won with Kyrie and lost without him. Not that Kyrie was more important... but equally important.
Magic was old and Worthy was injured. If they were both healthy... maybe a different outcome as there was when both LBJ and Kyrie were healthy.
The assists thing was something I had forgotten about and no one ever talks about. I was excited because that's an amazing thing to accomplish in your last playoff game, and at the time it happened I didn't even realize it because I was so upset about the loss. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Cooper wasn't on that team; Byron Scott was our starting shooting guard. Worthy and Scott were available for the first four games of that series. Even with them playing, we went down 1-3 with losses by 21, 8 and 15 points (we won game 1 by 2 points). We lost the 5th game without them. So we weren't close to winning. |
I saw the series... and Magic was old with arthritic knees and Worthy was hurt and Cooper was retired maybe.
I'm saying you are going to have a terrible result if Byron is guarding Michael.
The Bulls were a non factor when the Lakers and Celtics were young and healthy. |
You may have watched the series, but your memory is sketchy.
Magic wasn't "old." He was only 31 and came in second in MVP voting that year.
Magic didn't have arthritic knees. That was Worthy. Even so, Worthy averaged 21 ppg. and made the all-NBA third team (only one of two times in his career he did.)
Cooper wasn't "maybe retired." He retired the year before.
The Bulls were previously a "non-factor," as you put it, because they were a young team that was building. They were a 27-win team when they drafted MJ in 84. Pippen and Grant weren't drafted until 87. So the Bulls ring team as we know it didn't exist during most of the Lakers dynasty.
It would be just as accurate to say, "The Celtics and Lakers never beat the Bulls once Pippen developed into an all-star player in his third season.
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I was rooting for the Cavs to beat the Warriors but they won with Kyrie and lost without him. Not that Kyrie was more important... but equally important.
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Even if Kyrie was equally important, they beat a 73 win team, period.
You must think Kyrie is on Pippen's level somehow.
The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."
Goodness.
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I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
Wait. Not only did AD get 42 on a DPOY candidate, but he basically played him off the floor and out defended him, and you think something like that is a possible intangibles argument?
Dame is a killer. He also only plays 1 side of the floor.
VORP and BPM are measured on the same stat scale. LBJ was better at it.
Intangibles? Aren't the Lakers #1, in year 1, on a brand new roster? Under the leadership of which player?
I love Magic. I'd buy it if you're excited about how he plays. But if you want to go by stats, this ain't it. |
I said early on that if you go by numbers even basic stats that LBJ dominates Magic.
I pointed out some of Magic's numbers simply to point out that the chasm isn't nearly as wide as the mainstream media would have you believe.
He's not even in the top 5 discussion these days.
He was a more efficient scorer... he had a better assist turnover ratio, he was a better rebounder when he was young and he had more steals.
He broke down way earlier than MJ or LBJ... so it's hard to say where he would be had he stayed healthy as those two did.
It's like Gale Sayers was amazing when he was young... Bo Jackson was incredible but they broke down very early.
Except Magic won 5 titles along the way against very worthy opponents in spite of his physical limitations. |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | Magic's last game against Jordan's Bulls he had 20 dimes.
20 assists against two of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.
But what else could happen when you no longer have Cooper and Worthy and you are starting Terry Teagle, Sam Perkins and Vlade?
If Magic wins that series he has six rings and Jordan has 5.
Changes the conversation a little. |
Cooper wasn't on that team; Byron Scott was our starting shooting guard. Worthy and Scott were available for the first four games of that series. Even with them playing, we went down 1-3 with losses by 21, 8 and 15 points (we won game 1 by 2 points). We lost the 5th game without them. So we weren't close to winning. |
I saw the series... and Magic was old with arthritic knees and Worthy was hurt and Cooper was retired maybe.
I'm saying you are going to have a terrible result if Byron is guarding Michael.
The Bulls were a non factor when the Lakers and Celtics were young and healthy. |
You may have watched the series, but your memory is sketchy.
Magic wasn't "old." He was only 31 and came in second in MVP voting that year.
Magic didn't have arthritic knees. That was Worthy. Even so, Worthy averaged 21 ppg. and made the all-NBA third team (only one of two times in his career he did.)
Cooper wasn't "maybe retired." He retired the year before.
The Bulls were previously a "non-factor," as you put it, because they were a young team that was building. They were a 27-win team when they drafted MJ in 84. Pippen and Grant weren't drafted until 87. So the Bulls ring team as we know it didn't exist during most of the Lakers dynasty.
It would be just as accurate to say, "The Celtics and Lakers never beat the Bulls once Pippen developed into an all-star player in his third season. |
I couldn't say whether they were arthritic or he had tendinitis... but he wasn't as mobile as when he first started. Maybe it was the after effects of the knee injury he had when he was young. My point still stands that he wasn't like Kobe or LBJ at 32 years old.
Right and my point about Magic is that he won right away. True he had Kareem but Kobe and Shaq were paired together and it still took Phil to make it work.
That's why Michael was crying so hard when he finally won... because he had to get through tough teams to finally win.
It's just too bad he couldn't face the best of the Lakers because I think it would have been a different story... even with Pippen. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: |
The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."
Goodness. |
I thought of that. "Old" Lebron put up 27-11-11 with 2 steals and 3 blocks in game 7, and one of those blocks is one of the greatest plays in NBA finals history.
I don't see why Magic's 16-11-20 in a 7-point less is supposed to be more impressive. |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."
Goodness. |
I thought of that. "Old" Lebron put up 27-11-11 with 2 steals and 3 blocks in game 7, and one of those blocks is one of the greatest plays in NBA finals history.
I don't see why Magic's 16-11-20 in a 7-point less is supposed to be more impressive. |
I said Magic was better from 20 to 28.
By the time he lost to the Bulls he was a shell of himself and he still put up those numbers. |
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kwase
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | I really hate this new generation of rewarding losing. Participation trophies don't count. Magic won a title in high school, college and as a rookie in the NBA. Not only is lebron not close to Magic only 2 or 3 players are. This shouldn't even be a discussion. And before people start saying "Well if lebron played with Kareem and Worthy". Look, lebron stacked the deck heavily in his favor with the Heat and if it wasn't for a lucky shot by Ray Allen they would have only won 1 out of 4 championships...and that was in a strike shortened season. Stop it! |
Lebron has won three rings, so I don't really understand your "participation trophy" comment. Anyway, I think this post would have more sense 10 years ago than it does today. |
5 is better than 3. If you claim to be the GOAT (Which is ridiculous) then you're not in a position to make excuses. Win or shutup. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."
Goodness. |
I thought of that. "Old" Lebron put up 27-11-11 with 2 steals and 3 blocks in game 7, and one of those blocks is one of the greatest plays in NBA finals history.
I don't see why Magic's 16-11-20 in a 7-point less is supposed to be more impressive. |
I said Magic was better from 20 to 28.
By the time he lost to the Bulls he was a shell of himself and he still put up those numbers. |
A shell of himself? Huh?
Like I said, he came in second in MVP voting that year, and he won MVP the year before. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| kwase wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | kwase wrote: | | I really hate this new generation of rewarding losing. Participation trophies don't count. Magic won a title in high school, college and as a rookie in the NBA. Not only is lebron not close to Magic only 2 or 3 players are. This shouldn't even be a discussion. And before people start saying "Well if lebron played with Kareem and Worthy". Look, lebron stacked the deck heavily in his favor with the Heat and if it wasn't for a lucky shot by Ray Allen they would have only won 1 out of 4 championships...and that was in a strike shortened season. Stop it! |
Lebron has won three rings, so I don't really understand your "participation trophy" comment. Anyway, I think this post would have more sense 10 years ago than it does today. |
5 is better than 3. If you claim to be the GOAT (Which is ridiculous) then you're not in a position to make excuses. Win or shutup. |
I still don't understand your "participation trophy" comment, but I get that, in your eyes, Lebron can do no right, so I'll just write it off as a generic, "I don't like the guy."
Stay safe and be well!
Last edited by activeverb on Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BILBJH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | BILBJH wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: |
The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."
Goodness. |
I thought of that. "Old" Lebron put up 27-11-11 with 2 steals and 3 blocks in game 7, and one of those blocks is one of the greatest plays in NBA finals history.
I don't see why Magic's 16-11-20 in a 7-point less is supposed to be more impressive. |
I said Magic was better from 20 to 28.
By the time he lost to the Bulls he was a shell of himself and he still put up those numbers. |
A shell of himself? Huh?
Like I said, he came in second in MVP voting that year, and he won MVP the year before. |
LeBron is a shell of himself and he's still better than almost everyone in the league right now. |
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