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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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 Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Let's not forget, Jerry's other move was to get T-Mac. But Del Harris didn't want him. If not for Del Harris we'd have had Kobe, Shaq and T-Mac going forward.
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12670
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
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Theseus
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 14166
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes when you make decisions you have to use the information that was available at the time, and not the benefits of hindsight.
Thinking about what we did with Ball/Hart/Ingram a lot of what the fanbase was saying was trade everyone for talent ready to produce then. Many people were very willing and ready to offload our young players. This led to a championship so its hard for me to argue against it.
I think the Zubac trade was awful. Not re-signing Caruso was a big mistake. Trading for Westbrook wasn't a good idea. I understand trying to lessen Lebron's workload by getting a shot creator is a good strategy, but I wonder if we could have gotten the same production or better for less than we gave up. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Let's not forget, Jerry's other move was to get T-Mac. But Del Harris didn't want him. If not for Del Harris we'd have had Kobe, Shaq and T-Mac going forward. |
It was Dr. Buss.
https://uproxx.com/dimemag/kobe-bryant-lakers-shaq-tracy-mcgrady-jerry-west-draft/
| Quote: | | It was the Lakers’ owner Jerry Buss, hungry to end a championship drought that would ultimately last 11 seasons before Shaq, Kobe and their new coach Phil Jackson won their first of three successive titles together in 2000, who shot down the idea of a Bryant/McGrady partnership. |
I've always thought T-Mac was the ideal "Pippen" for Kobe.
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Theseus wrote: | Sometimes when you make decisions you have to use the information that was available at the time, and not the benefits of hindsight.
Thinking about what we did with Ball/Hart/Ingram a lot of what the fanbase was saying was trade everyone for talent ready to produce then. Many people were very willing and ready to offload our young players. This led to a championship so its hard for me to argue against it.
I think the Zubac trade was awful. Not re-signing Caruso was a big mistake. Trading for Westbrook wasn't a good idea. I understand trying to lessen Lebron's workload by getting a shot creator is a good strategy, but I wonder if we could have gotten the same production or better for less than we gave up. |
Losing Zubac's 9/8 was not a problem for me. He in his 6th year and has never played 25 mpg. Floor time is limited for him in this era of small ball and he wouldn't give us anymore than Dwight, except he costs 5X as much.
I thought RW would replace Caruso's energy. I'll take the L for that.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one. |
Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well. |
Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Who knows? We traded Eddie for Rice, who made a big salary for the time. |
And then we didn’t pay him.
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
However now, it's Jeanie being greedy, but then it was Dr Buss being a good businessman. Wonder if Jeanie had a penis like Jim what the narrative would have been. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
However now, it's Jeanie being greedy, but then it was Dr Buss being a good businessman. Wonder if Jeanie had a penis like Jim what the narrative would have been. |
Bingo. A bunch of broke online GMs criticizing "that gal, Jenny," for managing her $$$
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
However now, it's Jeanie being greedy, but then it was Dr Buss being a good businessman. Wonder if Jeanie had a penis like Jim what the narrative would have been. |
Bingo. A bunch of broke online GMs criticizing "that gal, Jenny," for managing her $$$ |
The model of spending wisely has been in place for a long time. They rely on this income. When a man like Jim was running it, some people justified it. As soon as a woman took over, it's all pot shots.
Lakers have never been ran/run like they have deep pockets. All you want is to see them spend wisely. The AD and Bron contracts are awesome. The RW contract is horrible, unless he somehow does something magnificent in the playoffs. Before the RW disaster trade, we had 3 awesome contracts in KCP, Trez, Kuz that were easy to move or worked within the salary cap in a way we could us our full MLE. In 2019, again, spent the cap very wisely with McGee/KCP/Danny Green etc. Even now, did a lot of good cap spending with Nunn, Monk, Reaves etc.
It's just the RW move. Such a bad move both on and off the court it's got to pay off in the playoffs otherwise this will go down as a major drawback in Jeanie/Rob. Before this, I would have said their strength was to evaluate well who to pay and who not to. Not after the RW trade. They need to make up for this move, big time, over the next 6 months. |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
However now, it's Jeanie being greedy, but then it was Dr Buss being a good businessman. Wonder if Jeanie had a penis like Jim what the narrative would have been. |
Bingo. A bunch of broke online GMs criticizing "that gal, Jenny," for managing her $$$ |
Don’t care about Jeanie’s money just as I didn’t care about Dr. Buss’. West (and Mitch) replaced the guys Buss wouldn’t pay to the tune of a 3peat. Rice replaced Jones, Grant replaced Rice. Most wouldn’t care how much or little Jeanie spent if we were getting results.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6026
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| Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm let’s see..one led to 3 rings and the other led to 1. You tell me. |
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Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Jerry's moves started a dynasty with an up and coming Goat and a Prime Shaq.
Pelinkas move made us old with no future players to be excited about.
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gary West > Mitchell Kupchak > Rod Pezinka |
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vasashi17+
Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 5611
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Other than their individual connections to the Mamba, JWest & RPelly have nothing else in common. One is a Laker GOAT (both as player & exec) while the other is an eScapeGOAT.
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Snipes wrote: | | Hmm let’s see..one led to 3 rings and the other led to 1. You tell me. |
Kobe with his athletic prime ahead of him, Shaq in his prime, vs Lebron after already being in 10 NBA Finals in a row, aged 35.
Can not forget that the Lakers "youth" + old Bron = lottery.
AD + Bron = title.
After that, it's been playoffs with injured AD/Bron.
And now the WB trade seems to have set us back significantly. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Snipes wrote: | | Hmm let’s see..one led to 3 rings and the other led to 1. You tell me. |
Different era, different rules.
West did a great job in his 18 years as GM - but he wasn't perfect. Don't forget, when West started as GM he inherited a team that had just won it's 2nd Finals in 3 years, with Kareem, Magic, Nixon, Wilkes, McAdoo, Kupchak, Rambis, McGee, Cooper and the #1 pick in the draft (he took Worthy), along with a championship coach. Even in constructing the 3-peat Lakers, he had a different set of rules with much more flexibility.
Pelinka inherited a team that had missed the playoffs for 6 straight years and was cap strapped, with LeBron, a bunch of unproven kids, and bad contracts, with Luke F. Walton as the coach.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Snipes wrote: | | Hmm let’s see..one led to 3 rings and the other led to 1. You tell me. |
Different era, different rules.
West did a great job in his 18 years as GM - but he wasn't perfect. Don't forget, when West started as GM he inherited a team that had just won it's 2nd Finals in 3 years, with Kareem, Magic, Nixon, Wilkes, McAdoo, Kupchak, Rambis, McGee, Cooper and the #1 pick in the draft (he took Worthy), along with a championship coach. Even in constructing the 3-peat Lakers, he had a different set of rules with much more flexibility.
Pelinka inherited a team that had missed the playoffs for 6 straight years and was cap strapped, with LeBron, a bunch of unproven kids, and bad contracts, with Luke F. Walton as the coach. |
West wasn’t perfect but he also wasn’t Donnie Nelson who dismantled a title team. Pelinka falls closer to the Nelson spectrum than the West one.
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Outspoken
Star Player
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 8450
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Other than their individual connections to the Mamba, JWest & RPelly have nothing else in common. One is a Laker GOAT (both as player & exec) while the other is an eScapeGOAT. |
This is hilarious and creative. I'm a use it. |
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Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6026
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Snipes wrote: | | Hmm let’s see..one led to 3 rings and the other led to 1. You tell me. |
Different era, different rules.
West did a great job in his 18 years as GM - but he wasn't perfect. Don't forget, when West started as GM he inherited a team that had just won it's 2nd Finals in 3 years, with Kareem, Magic, Nixon, Wilkes, McAdoo, Kupchak, Rambis, McGee, Cooper and the #1 pick in the draft (he took Worthy), along with a championship coach. Even in constructing the 3-peat Lakers, he had a different set of rules with much more flexibility.
Pelinka inherited a team that had missed the playoffs for 6 straight years and was cap strapped, with LeBron, a bunch of unproven kids, and bad contracts, with Luke F. Walton as the coach. |
I agree with you but he said after 1996 that’s why I said what I said |
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non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| SGVL1 wrote: | Nick quit on his team during the series with Utah. Was the trade rushed? Maybe. But sounds like it was damage control
Eddie was traded for a better fit : G Rice who a few years later was flipped for H Grant
Kuz Trezz and Kcp, even if they weren’t the FOs long term solution, could’ve been flipped for better assets than Russ …
Deandre, Rondo and Bazemore were just baffling signings |
If anything, West waited too long to deal Nick. Nick's rep was already bad before 98 Utah. The ref push and other events were before that one. He had a spat w/ Del in the 97 Jazz series, even. Nick was a lottery pick if not for his handling of the pre-Draft processes, too. He was all NCAA 2nd team w/ Grant Hill one of those years and goes at 37? You gotta seriously piss someone off to do that and one of them was George Karl who threatened to tell others not to draft him on TV. They had a contemptuous pre-Draft workout (how a draftee could even go there is pretty mindboggling, but hey, he was better than Lynch at 12, at least until Del was hired). West loved both the Van Exel and Jones picks and it was clear from interviews (there was an UpClose epi where Jones was discussed) that he was more than just a little too smitten with both of them for the fact that they were both considered steals at their place.
West was being pressured by Dr. Buss to get rid of Eddie because he was coming due a level of money he didn't want to pay for a non-superstar wing who shrunk in the Playoffs. And Shaq was peeing in the FO's ear about getting a shooter. The Richmond rumor was 2 plus seasons prior.
I think West was too sweet on both on purely the basis of having temporarily gotten over on other GMs in The Draft. But Nick showed his ass so many times before he wised up outside of LA that his bridges were burnt to a crisp.
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non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | I don't think many Laker fans liked the trade at the time, but would Kobe have developed into the player he was with them still on the roster? Kobe was just on another level compared to Van Exel or Eddie Jones. I mean the Lakers would've definitely had a much deeper roster going forward but thats a what if question if there ever was one. |
Kobe and Eddie could have co-existed though. Eddie knew Kobe since he was in high school. Those two together in their primes would have been so good defensively in Kobe's prime. Eddie was an all-defensive player as well. |
Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Who knows? We traded Eddie for Rice, who made a big salary for the time. |
And then we didn’t pay him. |
Wasn't the same player after the elbow, but Jax didn't like him anyway (ask Christina). We're all familiar w/ the things he liked in players (meaning that they "fit" his system, no matter how bad or mistake prone or unathletic). Phil was pleased whenever Kupchak passed on some young kid known chiefly for his athleticism so we could make more space for Luke.
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GOAT MAGIC REEL
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non-player zealot
Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 21365
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: |
West made one more brilliant move: the Ceballos for Horry trade. Ced was possibly the worst possible fit within a Shaq-centered team whereas Horry was an ideal fit - A genius-level help defender and decent/willing man defender who spaced the floor. For the Suns, Cedric Ceballos made a lot of sense as well to run with Kidd/KJ in the open floor and a guy that can create for himself as well as get buckets out of garbage plays with nobody to really clog up the interior. |
Shaq instantly swallowed up the (btw, and rightfully...) the operating space that both Elden and Ced needed to function at their best. Below rim and cleared sides/baseline for Elden. Take away those and what have you got with either? And they gave Elden that 50 mill. It's not that Elden wasn't good-to-serviceable when Shaq was out in 97 and 98, but they never consistently worked well w/ each other. I've seen some games where they pulled it off, but it was never a consistent attempt to repeat what worked before. Lakers could've used Elden in that 99 Spurs series, however. Dropping that boob Rodman when Elden was already gone left us w/ JR Reid against Duncan. Nightmare fuel.
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danzag
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013
Posts: 22313
Location: Brazil
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Dr. Buss wouldn’t have paid both. |
Exactly. Not much different than the constraints in place now. |
However now, it's Jeanie being greedy, but then it was Dr Buss being a good businessman. Wonder if Jeanie had a penis like Jim what the narrative would have been. |
Bingo. A bunch of broke online GMs criticizing "that gal, Jenny," for managing her $$$ |
The model of spending wisely has been in place for a long time. They rely on this income. When a man like Jim was running it, some people justified it. As soon as a woman took over, it's all pot shots.
Lakers have never been ran/run like they have deep pockets. All you want is to see them spend wisely. The AD and Bron contracts are awesome. The RW contract is horrible, unless he somehow does something magnificent in the playoffs. Before the RW disaster trade, we had 3 awesome contracts in KCP, Trez, Kuz that were easy to move or worked within the salary cap in a way we could us our full MLE. In 2019, again, spent the cap very wisely with McGee/KCP/Danny Green etc. Even now, did a lot of good cap spending with Nunn, Monk, Reaves etc.
It's just the RW move. Such a bad move both on and off the court it's got to pay off in the playoffs otherwise this will go down as a major drawback in Jeanie/Rob. Before this, I would have said their strength was to evaluate well who to pay and who not to. Not after the RW trade. They need to make up for this move, big time, over the next 6 months. |
Agree. |
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