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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:

If it is Mihm-itis, then they should go to him early...like they do with Mihm. Milk it while they can. Pick and pop is easy to run, shouldn't be a problem.
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I don't know. They are young. If older players like Fox, Fish and Horry, etc. can do it, then they can at some point regardless of fatigue.
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No easy answer. Get them rest in the first half of games when we get those big leads, I guess.
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I wouldn't want to face us if we are healthy
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Phoenix is the toughest challenge. They pass quick out of the P&R and we don't react fast enough. You definitely have to try to make Nash a scorer and have him work on the other end.

Thanks DB for your reply

Re: Mihm-itis - what are your thoughts on why PJ doesn't call (seemingly) more "Pick and Pop" plays for Cook when he's first in the game? If it is PJ, why is PJ not doing this and if it's the players - don't they have trust in him - or could it be that Cook is not definitive in setting solid screens and making himself open for the shots?

Re: Fatique - Fox/Fish/Horry/BShaw/Harper/etc. were seasoned players that know how to efficiently use energy while not having to use additional "brainpower" to execute the triangle that young players need (i.e. Smush, Sasha, Brown, Cook, etc.) This might be a reason why the breakdowns generally occur at the end of games - if this has validity, could a different substitution pattern help this situation?

Re: Kobe/LO's minute - could a high-energy/pressing team provide additional rest for them for short stretches (5 to 6 minutes per game). Maybe a lineup of the following might provide this
** Turiaff (boards/energy)
** Cook (firepower)
** Sasha (stopping the opposing PGs)
** Jim Jackson (stability & firepower & boards)
** Luke (stability & passing & firepower)
** DGeorge (stability & firepower & boards)

Re: Phoenix - key seems to be to stop Nash in the backcourt, since a 2/3 zone might not be good against their 3 point shooters. If Smush/Sasha/DGeorge/JJ can make Nash spend 2 to 3 more seconds in the backcourt - that might be strategic in being competitive with them?!?!
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:

That's true, but Kobe is only receiving the ball with 3 seconds on the shot-clock a few times a game. It's not like it happens 10 time a game. Or even 5 times a game. He usually receives the ball with roughly 10 seconds on the clock and the jockers use that as proof that Kobe is forced to just heave it. 10 seconds is PLENTY of time to work a better shot. Kobe's just been lazy about getting the best shot possible.


10 seconds is plenty of time. We usually start the offense at around 15 or 16. I think around 7 seconds is probably my timeframe when that green light starts to flash.
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magic_bryant
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
magic_bryant wrote:

That's true, but Kobe is only receiving the ball with 3 seconds on the shot-clock a few times a game. It's not like it happens 10 time a game. Or even 5 times a game. He usually receives the ball with roughly 10 seconds on the clock and the jockers use that as proof that Kobe is forced to just heave it. 10 seconds is PLENTY of time to work a better shot. Kobe's just been lazy about getting the best shot possible.


10 seconds is plenty of time. We usually start the offense at around 15 or 16. I think around 7 seconds is probably my timeframe when that green light starts to flash.


Exactly. But most people want to blame it on Kobe getting the ball late, when he usually receives at the 10 second mark.
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orido86
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject:

Thanks DB
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LakersInFour
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
Exactly. But most people want to blame it on Kobe getting the ball late, when he usually receives at the 10 second mark.

I think that WHERE Kobe recieves the ball at the 10 second mark is important as well. If he gets the ball on the wing about 18 feet out with 10 seconds to shoot, that's a good posession/position, and plenty of time to get a very good look - either for himself or someone else. BUT, as is the case too often, if Kobe gets the ball on the wing beyond the three point line with 10 seconds remaining, that's NOT a good thing. Because defenses like to run a trap defender at him from the top of the key. If he can't split the double team, he's got to stretch back past the trapping defender to the opposite wing, and that takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Now he's on the move, and he's got 5 - 7 seconds to create a shot for himself or a teammate - which is a lot more difficult.

There are ways to defeat this defensive scheme. The best way (considering strengths and weaknesses of current personel) would be to have Cook at the four, and have him come out and screen the high-post trap defender. That creates a pick & pop (Cook) or a pick & roll situation which can now be exploited. It would also be nice to have a shooter on the opposite wing, so that if that help defender rotates over, you've got a wide open three. Or somebody like Smush or Devean, who is capable of knocking down a three, or cutting toward the basket to recieve a bounce pass from Kobe.

If Kwame ever gets his FT% together (as it looks like he's been doing lately) or becomes more adept and handling the passes, he'd make a good screen & roll option as well, because has the athleticism to take it inside and score from 10 - 15 feet out.

If we make the playoffs, I think we'll see that reaction from the team to that defense. There are a lot of options out of that play, but you rarely see them during the regular season, because Phil plays it so close to the vest. That's why I really want to see this team make the playoffs, because Phil becomes a very active in coaching. We will see an entirely different Lakers team in the playoffs than the regular season. I love how the color guys and analysts and opponents all "write us off." Phil Jackson's teams are all about the playoffs, and this one has some good pieces.

Not enough to win a title, but if we get past the first round - look out!! We could legitimately make the WCF, although I don't think we'd be able to get past Phoenix.
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject:

LakersInFour wrote:
I think that WHERE Kobe recieves the ball at the 10 second mark is important as well. If he gets the ball on the wing about 18 feet out with 10 seconds to shoot, that's a good posession/position, and plenty of time to get a very good look - either for himself or someone else. BUT, as is the case too often, if Kobe gets the ball on the wing beyond the three point line with 10 seconds remaining, that's NOT a good thing. Because defenses like to run a trap defender at him from the top of the key. If he can't split the double team, he's got to stretch back past the trapping defender to the opposite wing, and that takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Now he's on the move, and he's got 5 - 7 seconds to create a shot for himself or a teammate - which is a lot more difficult.

If he can't split or go around the double team in a couple of dribbles and less than two seconds he should pass the ball. The offense stalls when he gets pushed out toward midcourt and hasn't given up the ball. The fact that he's got a double means someone is open, so he needs to attack it immediately, not 3-5 seconds, IMO. If he can't beat it in a couple of dribbles, pass the ball...we've got people open and an odd man advantage somewhere.

As you mention, it is certainly easier to work it with a shooter like Cook or Mihm with his midrange jumper. It also wouldn't be too bad with Odom when he's at the PF, because he's decent at attacking under control and making the extra pass.

Still, 10 seconds to me is a lot of time when you are moving the ball.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject:

I thought this game again proved my point, about teams that play to our own rhythm, or tempo. We have a chance, against any team that does not disrupt our offense, and lets us get set up.

They were making about as many sloppy mistakes, as we were. The third period continues to be our bane. I think they outscored us, by about 20 points[that's what it seemed like], in the 3rd period. I guess, most teams just seem to start to turn it up a notch, in the 3rd. The presence of George may have just been enough to tip the scales, in this one.
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magic_bryant
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:12 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
LakersInFour wrote:
I think that WHERE Kobe recieves the ball at the 10 second mark is important as well. If he gets the ball on the wing about 18 feet out with 10 seconds to shoot, that's a good posession/position, and plenty of time to get a very good look - either for himself or someone else. BUT, as is the case too often, if Kobe gets the ball on the wing beyond the three point line with 10 seconds remaining, that's NOT a good thing. Because defenses like to run a trap defender at him from the top of the key. If he can't split the double team, he's got to stretch back past the trapping defender to the opposite wing, and that takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Now he's on the move, and he's got 5 - 7 seconds to create a shot for himself or a teammate - which is a lot more difficult.

If he can't split or go around the double team in a couple of dribbles and less than two seconds he should pass the ball. The offense stalls when he gets pushed out toward midcourt and hasn't given up the ball. The fact that he's got a double means someone is open, so he needs to attack it immediately, not 3-5 seconds, IMO. If he can't beat it in a couple of dribbles, pass the ball...we've got people open and an odd man advantage somewhere.

As you mention, it is certainly easier to work it with a shooter like Cook or Mihm with his midrange jumper. It also wouldn't be too bad with Odom when he's at the PF, because he's decent at attacking under control and making the extra pass.

Still, 10 seconds to me is a lot of time when you are moving the ball.


Exactly. This is where Kobe hurts us and noone seems to want to admit that. He tries to create too much off the dribble and stalls the offense. Phil wants him in that Jordan role, just simply catch and shoot, let everyone else create the shot for him. But he's so used to being in control of everything, it's a tough transition.

He'll get there. Just not yet.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass."
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JuiceMonkey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
LakersInFour wrote:
I think that WHERE Kobe recieves the ball at the 10 second mark is important as well. If he gets the ball on the wing about 18 feet out with 10 seconds to shoot, that's a good posession/position, and plenty of time to get a very good look - either for himself or someone else. BUT, as is the case too often, if Kobe gets the ball on the wing beyond the three point line with 10 seconds remaining, that's NOT a good thing. Because defenses like to run a trap defender at him from the top of the key. If he can't split the double team, he's got to stretch back past the trapping defender to the opposite wing, and that takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Now he's on the move, and he's got 5 - 7 seconds to create a shot for himself or a teammate - which is a lot more difficult.

If he can't split or go around the double team in a couple of dribbles and less than two seconds he should pass the ball. The offense stalls when he gets pushed out toward midcourt and hasn't given up the ball. The fact that he's got a double means someone is open, so he needs to attack it immediately, not 3-5 seconds, IMO. If he can't beat it in a couple of dribbles, pass the ball...we've got people open and an odd man advantage somewhere.

As you mention, it is certainly easier to work it with a shooter like Cook or Mihm with his midrange jumper. It also wouldn't be too bad with Odom when he's at the PF, because he's decent at attacking under control and making the extra pass.

Still, 10 seconds to me is a lot of time when you are moving the ball.


Exactly. This is where Kobe hurts us and noone seems to want to admit that. He tries to create too much off the dribble and stalls the offense. Phil wants him in that Jordan role, just simply catch and shoot, let everyone else create the shot for him. But he's so used to being in control of everything, it's a tough transition.

He'll get there. Just not yet.


totally agree magic, great post. he's so used to always having the ball in his hands, he played 5 seasons under phil where he was the one with the ball in his hands(plus last year also, he always had the ball). its hard to break those habits. now hes suddenly asked to play more along the baseline without the ball and he still tends to chase the ball out on the perimeter. i expected kobe to adjust more quickly than what has happened but i guess it takes time even for kobe. our team will function best eventually when kobe doesnt have the ball and merely shoots when hes in a great scoring position. still too much of kobe chasing the ball beyond the 3 point line and chucking up bad 3's, or trying to do too much with the ball.
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magic_bryant
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject:

tenguygrst wrote:
magic_bryant wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
LakersInFour wrote:
I think that WHERE Kobe recieves the ball at the 10 second mark is important as well. If he gets the ball on the wing about 18 feet out with 10 seconds to shoot, that's a good posession/position, and plenty of time to get a very good look - either for himself or someone else. BUT, as is the case too often, if Kobe gets the ball on the wing beyond the three point line with 10 seconds remaining, that's NOT a good thing. Because defenses like to run a trap defender at him from the top of the key. If he can't split the double team, he's got to stretch back past the trapping defender to the opposite wing, and that takes about 3 - 5 seconds. Now he's on the move, and he's got 5 - 7 seconds to create a shot for himself or a teammate - which is a lot more difficult.

If he can't split or go around the double team in a couple of dribbles and less than two seconds he should pass the ball. The offense stalls when he gets pushed out toward midcourt and hasn't given up the ball. The fact that he's got a double means someone is open, so he needs to attack it immediately, not 3-5 seconds, IMO. If he can't beat it in a couple of dribbles, pass the ball...we've got people open and an odd man advantage somewhere.

As you mention, it is certainly easier to work it with a shooter like Cook or Mihm with his midrange jumper. It also wouldn't be too bad with Odom when he's at the PF, because he's decent at attacking under control and making the extra pass.

Still, 10 seconds to me is a lot of time when you are moving the ball.


Exactly. This is where Kobe hurts us and noone seems to want to admit that. He tries to create too much off the dribble and stalls the offense. Phil wants him in that Jordan role, just simply catch and shoot, let everyone else create the shot for him. But he's so used to being in control of everything, it's a tough transition.

He'll get there. Just not yet.


totally agree magic, great post. he's so used to always having the ball in his hands, he played 5 seasons under phil where he was the one with the ball in his hands(plus last year also, he always had the ball). its hard to break those habits. now hes suddenly asked to play more along the baseline without the ball and he still tends to chase the ball out on the perimeter. i expected kobe to adjust more quickly than what has happened but i guess it takes time even for kobe. our team will function best eventually when kobe doesnt have the ball and merely shoots when hes in a great scoring position. still too much of kobe chasing the ball beyond the 3 point line and chucking up bad 3's, or trying to do too much with the ball.


Exactly, it's not so much that the TEAM gets the ball to Kobe in a bad position, as it that Bryant himself, puts himself in a bad position.
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