The consistent message is he’s supposed be a team player with role of defense first and on offense be at the corner 3 or dunker’s spot.
They are basically sending the message Russ is welcome if he follows what is asked and Russ having the ego he does…it’s eating at him. Basically, they made it where he wants out because Russ wants to be Russ lol.
I would love for the Westbrook experiment to work but the reality is.. it’s not lol even his agent told the public that Westbrook isn’t willing to accept and adapt to the Lakers which is why there is talk that the Lakers have a deadline to trade Westbrook, the marriage is over.
The consistent message is he’s supposed be a team player with role of defense first and on offense be at the corner 3 or dunker’s spot.
They are basically sending the message Russ is welcome if he follows what is asked and Russ having the ego he does…it’s eating at him. Basically, they made it where he wants out because Russ wants to be Russ lol.
Agree that was part of why they went to Ham over Vogel. Vogel didn't have the personality to coach through the media and let the media know WB would need to play a certain way. He's not cut that way. Ham has already been very much a talker in the media in the sense where he's reflecting what he wants from WB.
For the Lakers the issue remains:
47M of salary is tied into WB. They are better off with WB than without. They have not enough firepower with AD/Bron + vet min role guys. Not unless Reaves, THT and a guy like Nunn come in and have big seasons.
Lets see how it plays out but if we had depth or 2-3 starters that could hold their own around AD/Bron, we could use the do it our way or bench strategy. I am not sure we have the depth to go with this attitude and WB knows it.
The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.
I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.
I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.
What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.
Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.
As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.
The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.
I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.
I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.
What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.
Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.
As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.
cause the FO signed defensive wings and no shooting wings. Russ can’t be Russ, no shooters to complement him. He has to be a 3&D so he can stay on the court with Bron like Schroeder did
^
Yep, but that's not on Russ alone. Especially since in the summer they have had a whole offseason to make changes and they've not really come up with something where Russ can be Russ. To make him into a 3&D guy off the ball will require a complete transformation. Think about asking Allen Iverson to become a 3&D guy. That's sort of the request we're making of him, in a way.
I guess there could be some middle ground, but overall it's a weird situation all around.
^
Yep, but that's not on Russ alone. Especially since in the summer they have had a whole offseason to make changes and they've not really come up with something where Russ can be Russ. To make him into a 3&D guy off the ball will require a complete transformation. Think about asking Allen Iverson to become a 3&D guy. That's sort of the request we're making of him, in a way.
I guess there could be some middle ground, but overall it's a weird situation all around.
AI didn’t change his game and we remember how bad he was at the end.
Melo was kinda in the same boat, maybe tangentially, be 2nd/3rd option aka spot up shooters and not 1st option on ur sweet spots, he did it and flourish as a 6th man but age prob caught up to him (good for 1st half of season then ran outta gas). Russ, if he wants to play in a contending team, gotta change. Even in a team full of shooters like Warriors, can u picture him not asked to change his game
Thing is with Melo, a) He never became a defender even now b) He always was a great shooter, but took volume shots so his percetages dipped in isolations.
While Melo adjused, he had the skill to be a good 3 point shooter, hence he revived his NBA career.
With Dwight, again, he always was a great defender, so he revived his career in LA in 2019-20 with extremely high level of defense (and rebounding).
With Westbrook, he has never been a defensive presence, nor has he been a shooter. So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK. The idea in itself is weird, you've got a 47M guy who is good at one thing - running the ball at a high speed.
The thing that makes sense to me is to bring him off the bench to run the ball. Set him up with a small ball 2nd unit that runs end to end and you change the tempo of the game. Of course WB would not agree to this, but that is when you can scapegoat him. I don't think he's being set up to succeed as a starter or with the system we apparently are going to run.
Thing is with Melo, a) He never became a defender even now b) He always was a great shooter, but took volume shots so his percetages dipped in isolations.
While Melo adjused, he had the skill to be a good 3 point shooter, hence he revived his NBA career.
With Dwight, again, he always was a great defender, so he revived his career in LA in 2019-20 with extremely high level of defense (and rebounding).
With Westbrook, he has never been a defensive presence, nor has he been a shooter. So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK. The idea in itself is weird, you've got a 47M guy who is good at one thing - running the ball at a high speed.
The thing that makes sense to me is to bring him off the bench to run the ball. Set him up with a small ball 2nd unit that runs end to end and you change the tempo of the game. Of course WB would not agree to this, but that is when you can scapegoat him. I don't think he's being set up to succeed as a starter or with the system we apparently are going to run.
Yeah, our FA signings points toward a team without Westbrook, that’s for sure. Plenty of blame to go around. There’s only 3 players, maybe 4 that can successfully play WB style of play, the relentless attack of the basket, Bron, Freak, Zion and maybe, big maybe, Ben Simmons and to be fair, young Westbrook but these days, he’s not one of those guys so whether he likes it or not, he has to change but like you said, there’s also separate issue of FO not putting/signing players that are more suited to hide his weaknesses. Double whammy
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 143652 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:34 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.
I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.
I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.
What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.
Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.
As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.
I can’t disagree with any of that _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK.
I don’t think they do. Imo the comments about how they expect him to play are more of a statement that they’re not going to try and warp the team into a pretzel to accommodate his meager skills. He plays D and hits shots or he will sit. If they really thought he was going to work out they wouldn’t be scouring the league to find him a new home. _________________ 14-5-3-12
The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR.
That’s not an answer either. He presents the same issues off the bench just in fewer minutes or with worse teammates. The two options with Westbrook are either getting him to buy in (he won’t) or warp your team completely to accommodate him (like Houston did). The Lakers aren’t going to contort their entire roster in the name of making Westbrook more effective. He’s not worth it and it doesn’t lead to winning basketball anyway. So they’ve planted the seeds. In the event that we can’t find a trade, he’s expected to play a certain way and if he doesn’t he won’t play. We will see if Ham has the balls to do it but he can’t get a sentence out since he was hired without talking about “accountability.” _________________ 14-5-3-12
The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR.
That’s not an answer either. He presents the same issues off the bench just in fewer minutes or with worse teammates. The two options with Westbrook are either getting him to buy in (he won’t) or warp your team completely to accommodate him (like Houston did). The Lakers aren’t going to contort their entire roster in the name of making Westbrook more effective. He’s not worth it and it doesn’t lead to winning basketball anyway. So they’ve planted the seeds. In the event that we can’t find a trade, he’s expected to play a certain way and if he doesn’t he won’t play. We will see if Ham has the balls to do it but he can’t get a sentence out since he was hired without talking about “accountability.”
Ya I hear ya. But I think that limits the damage more. He will again take down the efficacy of LBJ/AD starting lineups. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 143652 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm Post subject:
I’m surprised that some here have a hard time believing that it is almost impossible to trade Russ. I remember comments that it would be easy to trade his ending contract but $47 mil is a lot to deal. I don’t believe that anyone wanted him when we traded for him and obviously no one wants him now. And we gave up a FRP to get him. Pelinka is terrible at his job. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Yeah, that's the thing about the "let Russ be Russ" folly. You have to commit to it as a global strategy and force everyone to play into a style that means you will be middling to bad. Basically, OKC for a decade.
I could actually see a role for Russ on teams like Orlando, NY or Washington, where they aren't' set up to be good anyway, but don't necessarily want to bottom out. You could let Russ bulldoze his way to 40 wins if you commit to it and the other pieces fit. It's the antithesis of what the Lakers stand for though. _________________ Charter Member:
Austin “Team USA” Reaves fan club.
Rui "Black Samurai" Hachimura fan club
I refuse believe Ham is smarter than MDA and Vogel. Since we'd eventually all see it, I want to hear Ham's concrete plan in specifics about how he would like to incorporate Russ into the offense.
I mean it's good that the Lakers are trying hard to create leverage. But it would have been more believable if Lebron didn't alienate Russ and Russ didn't fire his agent who suggests that he should embrace the Lakers. We're wearing ski-masks and carrying AR-15s into the bank and we're saying we're just making a deposit. We're just making a deposit. Believe us!
If they can't trade him, they need to pay him to sit @ home. He is a net negative in everything he does on the court. Bringing him off the bench isn't going to fix his airballs, missed layups and turnstile defense.
I’m surprised that some here have a hard time believing that it is almost impossible to trade Russ. I remember comments that it would be easy to trade his ending contract but $47 mil is a lot to deal. I don’t believe that anyone wanted him when we traded for him and obviously no one wants him now. And we gave up a FRP to get him. Pelinka is terrible at his job.
It's remarkable how badly Westbrook's reputation has suffered in just over a year. From the perspective of July 2021, we weren't going to get Russell Westbrook for three role players. That would have been laughable. Yes, there were people who complained about the first-round pick even back then, but the trade just wasn't going to happen without the pick.
The problem with the trade wasn't the pick, but rather that the whole thing was a fundamentally bad idea. But Westbrook had an aura, and a lot of people were seduced by it (including Pelinka, Lebron, and Davis).
I actually feel a little bit sorry for Westbrook, though much of this has been his fault. If he had stayed in Washington, a lot of people would still think that he's a mythic figure. He might even have dragged the Wizards into the play-in tournament again. Instead, he came to the Lakers and got exposed on the biggest stage in the NBA. His legacy as a player may never fully recover. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 7865 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:42 pm Post subject:
The Lakers shouldn't completely bend to Westbrook's game and "let Russ be Russ," but at the same time, they have to somewhat play around his strengths.
You have to let him handle the ball about half of the time just because he's so great in transition both as an attacker and as a passer. If you want him to only play off the ball and pick up the scraps, you might as well send him home, but that would be worse than finding a happy medium between playing to his strengths and getting him to buy into a certain role.
Yes, Russ has to focus on playing defense and being productive without the ball on offense. But you also have to let him do his thing playing downhill with the ball while finding a way to divvy ball-handling duties between him and LeBron.
Besides, come crunch time, LeBron will have the ball in his hands almost all the time, as he should.
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