D'Lo is the biggest x-factor to me that determines our ceiling. I think he can take another jump into the Jamal Murray category but its more mental than physical with him at this point. Need 2 things from him. 1. Just need further growth from him in terms of playoff execution with added experience. 2. I actually want the ball more in D'Lo's hands than last year. Let him sink or swim because unless he makes that jump I am hoping for, we aren't beating the Nuggets again anyways.
I pretty much 100% disagree with this excerpt from your post.
I think physical limitations put a hard ceiling on DLO’s upside.
I think he’s a known quantity at this point.
I think Reaves needs the ball in his hands more and will determine if we make a jump more so than DLO.
And I think DLO is a good but non-elite shooter despite having a play style that relies heavily on pull-up jumpers.
I am rooting for him though. And I will continue to do so as long as he’s wearing P&G.
+1 _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season. _________________ "He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season.
Where do you rank him among PGs? Just wondering. Top 10? Top 15?
In that 14-18 range. I don't count Luka, Cade, SGA etc as point guards.
Kind of crazy how he had all that all star season and kind of fell off. It helps that he also will basically be playing for a pay day this season. _________________ "He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though."
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 28192 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:42 pm Post subject:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
kikanga wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season.
Where do you rank him among PGs? Just wondering. Top 10? Top 15?
In that 14-18 range. I don't count Luka, Cade, SGA etc as point guards.
Kind of crazy how he had all that all star season and kind of fell off. It helps that he also will basically be playing for a pay day this season.
Interesting. Well I don't think we are too far apart then.
It's just tough, cause only the top 1/2 of the league makes the playoffs. So most of the time he'll be a bottom rung starting PG in the post season.
If I look at the PGs from last playoffs. I'd take him over whomever Brooklyn started at PG. At that's about it. Going into the playoffs I would've definitely taken him over Gabe Vincent. But at this point. I have them pretty comparable. Close enough that it comes down to fit with the other 4 players the PG is playing with. Regular season, I could see him being more productive than Mike Conley. But I'd rather have Mike in the postseason. _________________ "I knew I was fly when I was just a caterpillar."
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35365 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:11 pm Post subject:
Halflife wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
kikanga wrote:
dcarter4kobe wrote:
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season.
Where do you rank him among PGs? Just wondering. Top 10? Top 15?
In that 14-18 range. I don't count Luka, Cade, SGA etc as point guards.
Kind of crazy how he had all that all star season and kind of fell off. It helps that he also will basically be playing for a pay day this season.
he got an all star nod by default. IMHO its not just about his play. he has to rub guys the wrong way. It will be interesting to see him here for a full season.
It depends on how you define all star. He played in the all star game as an injury replacement for Victor Oladipo. But he was selected by Silver, not through the same process as everyone else. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
He's been great in the regular season but not so much in the playoffs. Until I see the killer mentality from him in the playoffs, I'd have to assume he's mentally weak and is a choker. _________________ Offense gets the glory but DEFENSE wins championships!!
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season.
Where do you rank him among PGs? Just wondering. Top 10? Top 15?
In that 14-18 range. I don't count Luka, Cade, SGA etc as point guards.
Kind of crazy how he had all that all star season and kind of fell off. It helps that he also will basically be playing for a pay day this season.
he got an all star nod by default. IMHO its not just about his play. he has to rub guys the wrong way. It will be interesting to see him here for a full season.
He got in as an injury replacement, just like Anthony Edwards and De'Aaron Fox did last season. Yet I've never seen anyone try to invalidate their selections.
I believe he has been underrated on here since the playoffs.
Expecting a solid season.
Where do you rank him among PGs? Just wondering. Top 10? Top 15?
In that 14-18 range. I don't count Luka, Cade, SGA etc as point guards.
Kind of crazy how he had all that all star season and kind of fell off. It helps that he also will basically be playing for a pay day this season.
he got an all star nod by default. IMHO its not just about his play. he has to rub guys the wrong way. It will be interesting to see him here for a full season.
He got in as an injury replacement, just like Anthony Edwards and De'Aaron Fox did last season. Yet I've never seen anyone try to invalidate their selections.
Maybe because Ant and Fox are about 10x better than DLo
I think his all-star was deserved, Nets were a playoff team where he was the main reason behind that, and I think the East didn't have any guards that year, that you can say should have been there over him. _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
If a blogger is using PER as a way to compare players, they have a very poor grasp of analytics and metrics. Don't know anyone who still takes PER seriously when there are so many better, easily accessible metrics.
If a blogger is using PER as a way to compare players, they have a very poor grasp of analytics and metrics. Don't know anyone who still takes PER seriously when there are so many better, easily accessible metrics.
To add to this... if you are going to use numbers to try to judge how good a player is, please use as many metrics as you can find. We all know they are all flawed in one way or another, so having as much data as you can find to compare is useful in my opinion.
DO NOT THROW OUT ONE SINGLE METRIC and think you have somehow proven anything. To me this has even less value than the "eye" test.
He's not elite but I don't think you can find a better fit for the price tag. Moderate usage to accommodate other playmakers (Bron, Reaves), ability to play off ball, adequate shooting with occasional game breaking ability and above average playmaking at an almost 3:1 ATO. Who else is giving you that for $18M? _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
If a blogger is using PER as a way to compare players, they have a very poor grasp of analytics and metrics. Don't know anyone who still takes PER seriously when there are so many better, easily accessible metrics.
To add to this... if you are going to use numbers to try to judge how good a player is, please use as many metrics as you can find. We all know they are all flawed in one way or another, so having as much data as you can find to compare is useful in my opinion.
DO NOT THROW OUT ONE SINGLE METRIC and think you have somehow proven anything. To me this has even less value than the "eye" test.
A couple general comments on this topic:
1. PER and stats like individual ORtg/DRtg are box score stats. They just take the raw numbers from the box scores and generate an index. Back in the day, these stats were a great leap forward over preexisting stats. They are now antiquated. It is a red flag when someone calls these stats a "metric."
2. The better metrics are based on +/- data and the like. The problem is that the availability of these metrics is becoming problematic. RAPTOR is defunct. Some of the others are behind paywalls, in whole or in part. This isn't surprising, really. Now that the NBA community has gotten used to single number metrics, the people who generate them are going to look to cash in. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 28192 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:26 am Post subject:
Was riding with a friend. He had the Bill Simmons podcast on . But Austin Rivers was on and he said something interesting. Said DLO didn't fit in Minny cause he cared about getting his stats (unlike Mike Conley).
Thought that was interesting. Especially since most people high on DLO, bring up his offense and shy away from everything else that matters in terms of winning.
He fits here in the regular season really well. Cause Lebron does less of his Point Forward routine. But I'm glad we have Gabe for end of close regular season games and the playoffs. When LBJ tends to be more ball dominant. _________________ "I knew I was fly when I was just a caterpillar."
Last edited by kikanga on Wed Sep 20, 2023 11:36 am; edited 3 times in total
Regular Season : D'Lo is a good player that can eat a lot of minutes. His defensive issues & 3pt streakiness is less of an issue in the regular season
Post Season : D'Lo is an above average to so so player depending on match up. His streakiness at 3pts can be a liability. His defensive short comings is another liability that's magnified in the post season
My opinion: PER is a regular season stat. We're a post season team. His issues make a huge liability in the post season. We should trade him mid season for a 3 & D small guard
If a blogger is using PER as a way to compare players, they have a very poor grasp of analytics and metrics. Don't know anyone who still takes PER seriously when there are so many better, easily accessible metrics.
To add to this... if you are going to use numbers to try to judge how good a player is, please use as many metrics as you can find. We all know they are all flawed in one way or another, so having as much data as you can find to compare is useful in my opinion.
DO NOT THROW OUT ONE SINGLE METRIC and think you have somehow proven anything. To me this has even less value than the "eye" test.
A couple general comments on this topic:
1. PER and stats like individual ORtg/DRtg are box score stats. They just take the raw numbers from the box scores and generate an index. Back in the day, these stats were a great leap forward over preexisting stats. They are now antiquated. It is a red flag when someone calls these stats a "metric."
2. The better metrics are based on +/- data and the like. The problem is that the availability of these metrics is becoming problematic. RAPTOR is defunct. Some of the others are behind paywalls, in whole or in part. This isn't surprising, really. Now that the NBA community has gotten used to single number metrics, the people who generate them are going to look to cash in.
Those who are complaining about the OP's data need to supply their own, instead of complaining about his. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Those who are complaining about the OP's data need to supply their own, instead of complaining about his.
Nah. If someone is using weak or antiquated data, it is perfectly fine to point that out. And pointing that out doesn't obligate you to spend time chasing down better data.
Those who are complaining about the OP's data need to supply their own, instead of complaining about his.
Not really. Rating players based on PER is one step up from rating players based on the fantasy stats that Ming sometimes cites (the old NBA Efficiency stat). It's not really data at all, in the sense that we would use that term in 2023.
I don't necessarily disagree with AMC's list. I think most of those point guards are better than Russell. I might argue with Fultz, but he's in the ballpark. Russell is a below average starting PG, though that's misleading because PG is one of the prime positions in the league. I just object to using PER as a measuring stick in this era.
RAPTOR still exists for last season, though 538 has now laid off its entire sports staff. (Nate Silver left, too.) You can use the filters here to see how an actual metric rates Russell among PGs. If you raise the minimum minutes to 2000, he comes in at about 30th. Some of the guys on the list aren't really PGs, such as Lebron, so Russell is probably about 25th or so. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Joined: 19 Nov 2007 Posts: 4346 Location: Lake Nacimiento
Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 1:01 pm Post subject:
manlisten wrote:
He's not elite but I don't think you can find a better fit for the price tag. Moderate usage to accommodate other playmakers (Bron, Reaves), ability to play off ball, adequate shooting with occasional game breaking ability and above average playmaking at an almost 3:1 ATO. Who else is giving you that for $18M?
Yeah, for the lower price i'm thrilled to have him back but there's a reason he took such a dive in salary from what was originally expected. I have no doubt he'll be huge for us the majority of the regular Season, I have nearly no doubts about this.. It's more so once the Playoffs begin, he's too good to completely disappear for games or get mentally checked out. I'm hoping he finally gets over that mental hurdle but only time will tell.
Looking forward to anyone's tangible criteria/stats on how DLo ranks with the other PGs
DLo's greatest value is as a shot creator, though there are many that feel (and have) shut down his strength since he is not a good defender.
Given that teams have shut down and even played DLo off the court, just like what happened to AR during the FIBA games, how can DLo and/or Ham address this issue(s). Is it mental toughness or (hopefully) DLo worked/improved/added to his game during this off-season.
~ Play DLo off-ball and getting him screens/backdoors to get him some clean air space
~ Have AR as the primary ball-handler
Is DLo a good fit for the Lakers because of his contract and playing ability.
Any news of what DLo has been doing to improve his game during this off-season?
<snip>
Given that teams have shut down and even played DLo off the court, just like what happened to AR during the FIBA games ...
<snip>
Sorry, when did this happen? I must've missed it unless you mean the games where AR got switched onto bigger opposing players because of the US being under-sized. Even then he wasn't "played off the court", Kerr kept with him: no other SG on that team would've made much of a difference. In short, there's utterly no comparison between AR's defense and DLo's defense.
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. But Austin Rivers was on and he said something interesting. Said DLO didn't fit in Minny cause he cared about getting his stats (unlike Mike Conley).
