He may be a MLE level talent in upside due to age, but his actual impact is closer to 5M. This is definitely a klutch payment thing however it could also work out as Vandy is young enough where there could be improvement. I just find it weird we've been willing to give all this cash to these guys and let someone who was proven as a legit advanced stats impact guy, proven winner, and aslo elite defensively (Caruso) walk over money. Then, we also traded KCP, someone who was also one of the better 3&D guys. We've still yet to get the same level combo back. Imagine having Reaves, KCP, Caruso all on the same roster. Would have been fun to see defensively and on offense.
Caruso was the hardest pill to take
With the salary cap restrictions, believe that the Lakers would have to pay a lot of cap tax if they signed him
Can’t imagine any lineup with AR, Caruso and KCP on the court at the same time
This current roster construction definitely has more financial flexibility when needed
AD’s injury concerns had Rob trade for Westbrook (with AD and LBJ’s encouragement and endorsement) that resulted in KCP’s departure
From AC to Zubac to AR to Hart and others - Lakers’ scouting has been excellent
Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 1384 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:08 am Post subject:
The best investment in a young player the Lakers have made in a very long time. _________________ Everyting negative - pressure, challenges - is all an opportunity for me to rise.
-Kobe Bryant
The best investment in a young player the Lakers have made in a very long time.
Austin Reaves was at least just as good of an investment on a young player and I consider it actually better since the price/duration is about the same with ARe seemingly projected to be a more productive asset. Rui Hachimura and Gabe Vincent were good investments as well but their shorter deals and a difference in $’s could be a consideration to make Vans’ look better. Those were all just a few weeks ago.
The investment on those four young players is better than had been made in a very long time.
Rui/Van/ARe/Vin _________________ “When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Overpay imo. I think he can be a much better fit at the 4 when Wood is at the 5, but that’s MLE money at best.
Another negotiation win for Klutch.
So many idiots here on LG.
$12 mill per year for one of the best defenders in the league who if he develops an average jump shot, becomes one of the best role players in the league.
I swear, everytime I come back on LG, the people's IQ here keeps dropping. Not having a single idea of what a player's worth is in today's NBA. $12 mill per is not what it used to be fellas.
The expats in the Chinese League is 80% "If he ever develops a jump shot, watch out!" guys. If teams get to play you on 4-on-5 when you're on offense, it doesn't matter how good the defense is. In terms of fixing his jump shot--the dude has a broken form. He had statistically the most wide open looks in the league when he was here. Teams dared him to shoot in the playoffs and it's a strategy that resoundingly paid off. The only time i see him being helpful is when Wood is at the 5, but even then, i'd rather Rui get the 4 minutes.
He's a really good iso defender, but he's not "one of the best defenders in the NBA" As an iso defender, he is not on the Lou Dort/Jaden McDaniels/Jrue/Herb Jones level. In terms of an offball/screen navigator--a pereptually underrated defender quality--he's not very good. He was often easily shaken on screens by the Grizz, Warriors and Nuggets, with AD erasing a lot of the guys he lost. You can put someone just as average on offball defense, have AD erase their mistakes, and get someone who doesn't create an anti-gravity field on offense.
It's not a terrible deal, but there's nothing to love about it.
Overpay imo. I think he can be a much better fit at the 4 when Wood is at the 5, but that’s MLE money at best.
Another negotiation win for Klutch.
So many idiots here on LG.
$12 mill per year for one of the best defenders in the league who if he develops an average jump shot, becomes one of the best role players in the league.
I swear, everytime I come back on LG, the people's IQ here keeps dropping. Not having a single idea of what a player's worth is in today's NBA. $12 mill per is not what it used to be fellas.
The expats in the Chinese League is 80% "If he ever develops a jump shot, watch out!" guys. If teams get to play you on 4-on-5 when you're on offense, it doesn't matter how good the defense is. In terms of fixing his jump shot--the dude has a broken form. He had statistically the most wide open looks in the league when he was here. Teams dared him to shoot in the playoffs and it's a strategy that resoundingly paid off. The only time i see him being helpful is when Wood is at the 5, but even then, i'd rather Rui get the 4 minutes.
He's a really good iso defender, but he's not "one of the best defenders in the NBA" As an iso defender, he is not on the Lou Dort/Jaden McDaniels/Jrue/Herb Jones level. In terms of an offball/screen navigator--a pereptually underrated defender quality--he's not very good. He was often easily shaken on screens by the Grizz, Warriors and Nuggets, with AD erasing a lot of the guys he lost. You can put someone just as average on offball defense, have AD erase their mistakes, and get someone who doesn't create an anti-gravity field on offense.
It's not a terrible deal, but there's nothing to love about it.
According to Cleaning The Glass, AD/Vanderbilt lineups have a 108.4 defensive rating, which is in the 95th percentile.
With Davis able to protect the rim at a very high level, Vanderbilt has the liberty to hound his man on the perimeter in an aggressive fashion, knowing that if he gets beat, Davis will be there as the last line of defense.
Vanderbilt is also a good rebounder, and even when he doesn’t collect that many rebounds, the fact that he boxes out well makes it easier for teammates such as Davis to grab lots of boards and give the Lakers possession of the ball.
Often the hardest shots is when all the defenders completely back off and one has all the time to think about taking the shot. Maybe he will incorporate getting closer to the basket if the defenders are that far away then just shoot - he will be closer to the basket to get rebounds
Shooting is repetition repetition repetition repetition repetition
The expats in the Chinese League is 80% "If he ever develops a jump shot, watch out!" guys.
Pretty much. When a player has a major hole in his game, it's hard to stick in the NBA. He has to be truly elite at something else, and even then it can be tough to stick around.
pjiddy wrote:
He's a really good iso defender, but he's not "one of the best defenders in the NBA"
I'd rate him as an above average defender, but certainly not elite or near-elite. He is active on defense, and that will sometimes deceive people into thinking that a player is a better defender than he really is. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
Vanderbilt came off the bench in his first two games with the Purple and Gold, but he has been in the starting lineup ever since, giving him 15 straight games as a starter so far.
In those 15 games, a span which started on Feb. 15 versus Ingram’s New Orleans Pelicans, the Lakers have led the NBA in defensive rating at 109.5.
In seven of those 15 contests, they have held their opponent to 110 points or fewer, and overall, they’re 10-5 in those games.
Defensive rating with Vanderbilt and Anthony Davis on the court
But an even more glaring stat shows L.A.’s newfound defensive prowess when Vanderbilt shares the court with Anthony Davis.
According to Cleaning The Glass, such lineups have a 108.4 defensive rating, which is in the 95th percentile.
With Davis able to protect the rim at a very high level, Vanderbilt has the liberty to hound his man on the perimeter in an aggressive fashion, knowing that if he gets beat, Davis will be there as the last line of defense.
Vanderbilt is also a good rebounder, and even when he doesn’t collect that many rebounds, the fact that he boxes out well makes it easier for teammates such as Davis to grab lots of boards and give the Lakers possession of the ball.
Prior to his arrival in February, the team was having plenty of troubles on the defensive end. It appears those days may be over. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
He may be a MLE level talent in upside due to age, but his actual impact is closer to 5M. This is definitely a klutch payment thing however it could also work out as Vandy is young enough where there could be improvement. I just find it weird we've been willing to give all this cash to these guys and let someone who was proven as a legit advanced stats impact guy, proven winner, and aslo elite defensively (Caruso) walk over money. Then, we also traded KCP, someone who was also one of the better 3&D guys. We've still yet to get the same level combo back. Imagine having Reaves, KCP, Caruso all on the same roster. Would have been fun to see defensively and on offense.
Agreed.
As much as I like Vando, it seems like his defensive impact is overstated around laker fan base. It's very understandable, given how things were before the trade and massive different defensive outcome after. However,
multiple factors went into that equation. We shipped out WB, PB, None(2 non-defending pg & 1 very undersized wing defender) and received two
proper sized wing in 6'8" Rui & 6'9" Vando. The size difference in itself gave
us massive upgrade defensively. Vando is very good defensive wing to have on your roster, make no mistake about it. But I don't if he is MLE level guy yet when he can easily play off the court during the playoff.
As you stated, it seems this contract was a bit of Klutch payment, but not without an upside of his improvement which can justify $ amount then some. 5 mil might be too critical, considering current inflation. and he is a very good defensive fit with AD with us as well. We still have him at
4.7 mil for one more season, when his new extension kicks in his 11 mil 1st year payment will be 2~3 mil less than FMLE. I wanted him at 8~10 mil range, so this contract is (just like Rui) a bit expensive, but passable.
However, my pessimistic view on his improvement makes this contract nothing more than movable contract. My take is that his biggest deficiency isn't his shooting but finishing around basket. Horrendous hands/awareness/touch+feel/lack of vertical pop in short gather/body coordination(+balance) around the basket...I can't think of anyone who has improved in those areas in meaningful ways, especially after 5 yrs into their career. His inability to finish around the basket against opposing bigs at high level severely limit his role in half court offensively. It makes him a bad fit at dunker spot. He doesn't set a good screen, can't finish in traffic = exclude him a roller either.
Now, a spot up guy at the corner is the only role he can 'potentially' settle into. but have you seen the recent shooting practice clip??? I don't know
who he is working out with, but my gawd, it might take longer than some of optimistic fans would like. He really just should reinvent the shot altogether.
then, perhaps, some consistency can be expected of him as a corner shooter in 2~3 seasons. If that happens, that could be 15~20 mil guy, depends on the efficiency level and gravity which comes from shooting volume. It will makes first 2 yrs of his contract might be a bit over compensated but we can really benefit from his last 2 yrs.
Overall, I see it as a movable contract as of now.
Last edited by JJin77 on Mon Sep 18, 2023 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Vanderbilt came off the bench in his first two games with the Purple and Gold, but he has been in the starting lineup ever since, giving him 15 straight games as a starter so far.
In those 15 games, a span which started on Feb. 15 versus Ingram’s New Orleans Pelicans, the Lakers have led the NBA in defensive rating at 109.5.
In seven of those 15 contests, they have held their opponent to 110 points or fewer, and overall, they’re 10-5 in those games.
Defensive rating with Vanderbilt and Anthony Davis on the court
But an even more glaring stat shows L.A.’s newfound defensive prowess when Vanderbilt shares the court with Anthony Davis.
According to Cleaning The Glass, such lineups have a 108.4 defensive rating, which is in the 95th percentile.
With Davis able to protect the rim at a very high level, Vanderbilt has the liberty to hound his man on the perimeter in an aggressive fashion, knowing that if he gets beat, Davis will be there as the last line of defense.
Vanderbilt is also a good rebounder, and even when he doesn’t collect that many rebounds, the fact that he boxes out well makes it easier for teammates such as Davis to grab lots of boards and give the Lakers possession of the ball.
Prior to his arrival in February, the team was having plenty of troubles on the defensive end. It appears those days may be over.
What was the o-rating in that time?
And i think the adjustments made against Vando meant new troubles: playing 4 on 5 on offense.
There's going to be a lot of guys competing for time at the four and five spots ... AD, Lebron, Hayes, Wood, Rui, Vandy. It will be interesting to see who ends up the odd man out.
Los Angeles Lakers forward Jarred Vanderbilt has agreed on a four-year, $48 million contract extension with the franchise, Klutch Sports CEO Rich Paul and agent Erika Ruiz told @TheAthletic @Stadium. Deal is fully guaranteed with a player option in the fourth year.
Dude could have made up to 16m in the first year of his extension (2024/25 season) via the new 140% extension rules, but based off the 4yr/48m reports, his contract should look like this:
Since this is a 4yr extension with likely 8% annual increases instead of 5%, it would not fall into the extend-and-trade category. As a result, a 6 month no-trade clock kicks in meaning dude would be technically safe for the year in any trade since that 6 month NTC would expire past the Feb 8th trade deadline.
Also if he were traded after this trade deadline (ie after the season ends & before June 30th 2024, then he would be considered BYC in a trade and count as about 6.7m in outgoing salary for us while the trading team would see him as an incoming 13.4m (ie his new annual). As a result, if he were to be traded, it’s most likely post July 1st 2024.
So no more trying to get under tax this season
AD, Vando, DLo, Rui, Reaves core under contract
I like it
Actually no more getting under the tax using Vando’s deal.
We still can turn to offload DLo, Prince or Gabe after Dec 15th.
To safely remain a non-taxpayer this year (and as a result also ducking the repeater tax and setting up for a hard reboot on that status if we also successfully duck the tax next year too for the 2024/25 season), we would have to send out roughly 2-2.5m more than what we bring back.
We have to account for DLo’s unlikely 700k incentives adding to the potential tax bill at the end of the year. Also we must account for Vando’s 145k unlikely incentives.
If we’re this close to ducking the tax the last thing you need is to not offload enough salary to where those unlikely incentives turn likely and have you leak into tax territory.
Without much roster upheavel, if they trade Prince’s 4.5m for a vet min guy (~2m), we should be okay in gaining enough wiggle under the tax line to not be a taxpayer this year even if we look to sign a prorated min to the 15th spot.
Also something to note, I’m seeing others report that this would be 48m in new money, meaning it’s 4 years attached to his current expiring deal, in which case his contract would shake out like this with typical 8% annual increases for a bird player.
But personally I don’t believe that to be the case…I believe it’s 3yrs in new money resulting in 48m total over these next 4 years, but we should find some clarity here when more details drop (ie are there annual raises?, are there incentives included?, etc).
Imho I rather invest in defensive players like Vando to put around our franchise guy in AD than naught. Which is why it’s safe to speculate that DLo could be the guy on the outs eventually this season.
A very well reasoned post. For whatever reason, I get the impression that it is all new money, commencing in 24-25.
There's going to be a lot of guys competing for time at the four and five spots ... AD, Lebron, Hayes, Wood, Rui, Vandy. It will be interesting to see who ends up the odd man out.
With AD/LBJ probably missing games, subject to the new NBA guidelines, Hayes, Wood and Rui will definitely get time in the front court
With DS gone, will Vincent and Vandy (who can defend against guards to forwards) be Ham's defensive DOGS tagging opposing team's key players during crunch time.
Maybe Ham can throw at short bursts (3-5 minutes) a full court press with the following lineup
Caruso is a little better on offense but not exactly a world beater at that area either.
As much as it sucked to let Caruso go for pretty much no reason, it all turned out okay with Vanderbilt here now. _________________ Lakers Offseason Goal:
- Draft Edey or Ware (Another guard)
- Sign Jonas or Claxton (NOBODY)
- sign and trade DLO (nobody wants him LMAO!)
- sign a coach that’s not an idiot (JJ: LeBron Bestie/might be a racist)
Caruso is a little better on offense but not exactly a world beater at that area either.
As much as it sucked to let Caruso go for pretty much no reason, it all turned out okay with Vanderbilt here now.
Vanderbilt (outside of AD) is the only one that is a total DOG on defense and can defend the opposing team's best players
If he can drive towards the paint, this is what happens
Made just 64.9% of his shot attempts from three feet and in during the regular season with the Lakers. Improved to 73.7% in the playoffs
Caruso is a little better on offense but not exactly a world beater at that area either.
As much as it sucked to let Caruso go for pretty much no reason, it all turned out okay with Vanderbilt here now.
That might be your preference, but every gm and coach in the nba would take Caruso over Vando. This is homer cope pure and simple. Caruso is a better defender at his position and is at least not so bad at shooting that teams completely play off him. He is also a superior finisher around the basket despite Vando’s height, length and athletic advantages.
One guy was able to close on a championship team. The other saw his minutes steadily diminish throughout the postseason. This isn’t a conversation for anyone but you two.
For our roster needs, Caruso would be the much better fit. I've got nothing against Vandy, and I see the arguments for him. I respect that. Will give him a chance, he has shown some ability to make defensive plays and be effective off the ball on offense.
However when you look at their advanced metrics, one is rated elite on defense. In particular what made Caruso special, were his 2 man advanved ratings with Lebron on the floor. It was almost like he was a defensive version of Fisher. For whatever reason, when Caruso was out there with Lebron, good to great things tend to happen. Now add Reaves into that mix, another guy who has a lot of complementary talent to Lebron/AD, you got a 4 man core there that would be very effective.
With Vandy, the main issue I see is how would you find minutes/lineups for AD, Bron, Vandy, Rui? If Rui plays as well that warrants 17M, and Vandy the MLE range, then they would need to get more than backup minutes. If AD/Bron are healthy, I can't see both Rui and Vandy play a lot. Which leads me back to the same thing. We built/have built a hell of a regular season team that should be in the top 4, likely top 2. We have the depth to avoid those issues we've had in recent years with all the AD/Bron injuries PLUS the Westbrook trade hurting depth. Last 3 years win totals have been in the .500 range, and play ins have been the end result. In fact, in 2 of Lebron's 5 years, LA didn't even make the playoffs.
So perhaps this depth, is going to be a huge asset down the road. We shall see.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 145037 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:21 pm Post subject:
JUST-MING wrote:
How is Alex a better fit? Guard that can’t dribble or shoot.
And Vanderbilt is a forward who can’t dribble or shoot. I personally think that we need the defensive forward over the defensive guard. But that player offers little in the way of offense. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
I text Vando… Thursday at 8:18 am I told him ‘don’t sign an extension, trust me. Hoop, stay in shape, have fun, and I repeat, do not sign an extension. Morning, gang. I thought of you. Love, gang.’ He replied to me ‘appreciate it, gang, Why do you think it’s better to wait?’ I told him why, obviously when you sign an extension you get your worth, but when you’re signing as a free agent, you get overpaid. That’s where the overpaid title comes from, when you’re a free agent. If a lot of you young guys don’t know, overpaid is a free agent, you getting your worth is an extension. He got his worth, but for what he does, he should be overpaid. If he would’ve waited, he might’ve gotten four years, $60 million or four years, $65 million, you know what I’m saying? So he left a ton of money on the table, but it’s also hard to turn down $48 million too.
_________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
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