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Omar Little
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 Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Moses wrote: | | Buck32 wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | What a damn shame the true GOAT couldnt be ordained as in not the perennial choker Messi but the guy who has the flair of Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar without the extravagence and the calm coolness of Messi with the game similar to El Fenomeno R9 Ronaldo. Watching Mbappe was like watching Floyd Mayweather - a young great reach greatness at a young age and knowing the future is unlimited. What a shame he had to lose cause his teammates were not clutch enough. The mental fortitude to step up to the spot 3 times against a great penalty saver in Martinez and bury all his chances. I know a guy who has choked way too often on penalties and his name is Messi. |
I always feel like a person who can’t appreciate Messi is one who doesn’t really see the true beauty of the game.
Perhaps you’d feel differently if you’d taken a penalty in front of a crowd before, I can assure you it isn’t as easy as it looks when you get up there. |
Messi is one of the best to ever play, and is better than CR or Zidane. Is he the GOAT? While Maradona had a better international career Messi has a better club record. I'm also partial to Cruyff when in comes to GOAT discussions. And Romario was my favorite player. Anyway Messie should at least be top 5 in any GOAT discussion.
The only (minor) thing I don't like is when he fakes his penalty to throw off the keeper. FIFA should ban this. When a player starts his motion he cannot stop before taking the kick. That's like a basketball player faking his freethrow. Neymar also does this all the time. |
To me Messi is the GOAT by an absolute mile. His peak was the greatest I’ve ever seen, his best season is better than what anyone else ever did, his longevity and achievements, list goes on… CR7 should be the second greatest ever because of goal scoring, longevity and sheer athleticism, but I think Messi’s skill and playmaking put him above.
I don’t put the older players in the conversation to be honest, I think the game has changed and evolved so much that a player like Maradona probably wouldn’t have the conditioning to be what he was back then if he played now. And as for Mbappe who was mentioned above, he isn’t for me even the best French player ever, maybe when he’s done he will be, but not yet.
On subject of pens, the stuttered run up in a way is clever because it can force a keeper to react, but it looks dumb as hell if the player then misses. |
Comparing eras is always a difficulty, because the modern era always has the advantage of evolution, but the older players can only play within their own era. I generally try to compare them within their own time and assume that older players would within reason adapt to and benefit from evolution. There are situations where you can posit that no one guy could have the dominance in todays game as earlier times, or that a period was so rudimentary and/or the player physically unsuitable to evolve (part of why I don’t put Mikan in GOAT lists except as a postscript), and maybe that’s an argument with Maradona, but i don’t agree with it.
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Moses
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Joined: 23 Aug 2008
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Location: London
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | What a damn shame the true GOAT couldnt be ordained as in not the perennial choker Messi but the guy who has the flair of Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar without the extravagence and the calm coolness of Messi with the game similar to El Fenomeno R9 Ronaldo. Watching Mbappe was like watching Floyd Mayweather - a young great reach greatness at a young age and knowing the future is unlimited. What a shame he had to lose cause his teammates were not clutch enough. The mental fortitude to step up to the spot 3 times against a great penalty saver in Martinez and bury all his chances. I know a guy who has choked way too often on penalties and his name is Messi. |
I always feel like a person who can’t appreciate Messi is one who doesn’t really see the true beauty of the game.
Perhaps you’d feel differently if you’d taken a penalty in front of a crowd before, I can assure you it isn’t as easy as it looks when you get up there. |
You just validated my point as to why guys who dont choke on critical penalties - and there are guys who never seem to miss - are extremely mentally clutch. As in Mbappe. Or how about guys like Zidane, Hierro and Shearer. Some guys just dont miss penalties and when you see these guys step up to the spot - its pretty much a guaranteed goal. No one can say Messi is one of these people. Those who seem to love Messi just dont seem to appreciate the cuthroatness or ruthlessness of sport to win and dont appreciate those that have always displayed a clutch mental toughness from the very beginning at the highest levels of sport - like a Tom Brady or Madison Bumgarner or Magic Johnson |
You cannot call someone who has won every single trophy in the game a choker. Makes you sound like a hater, implying that Messi lacks mental toughness when the man is one of the greatest winners that football has ever seen.
Are you gonna call Zidane a choker for getting sent off in the World Cup final? Is Cristiano a choker for losing a Euro final to Greece? Or is it just Messi you have an issue with?
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | What a damn shame the true GOAT couldnt be ordained as in not the perennial choker Messi but the guy who has the flair of Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar without the extravagence and the calm coolness of Messi with the game similar to El Fenomeno R9 Ronaldo. Watching Mbappe was like watching Floyd Mayweather - a young great reach greatness at a young age and knowing the future is unlimited. What a shame he had to lose cause his teammates were not clutch enough. The mental fortitude to step up to the spot 3 times against a great penalty saver in Martinez and bury all his chances. I know a guy who has choked way too often on penalties and his name is Messi. |
I always feel like a person who can’t appreciate Messi is one who doesn’t really see the true beauty of the game.
Perhaps you’d feel differently if you’d taken a penalty in front of a crowd before, I can assure you it isn’t as easy as it looks when you get up there. |
You just validated my point as to why guys who dont choke on critical penalties - and there are guys who never seem to miss - are extremely mentally clutch. As in Mbappe. Or how about guys like Zidane, Hierro and Shearer. Some guys just dont miss penalties and when you see these guys step up to the spot - its pretty much a guaranteed goal. No one can say Messi is one of these people. Those who seem to love Messi just dont seem to appreciate the cuthroatness or ruthlessness of sport to win and dont appreciate those that have always displayed a clutch mental toughness from the very beginning at the highest levels of sport - like a Tom Brady or Madison Bumgarner or Magic Johnson |
You cannot call someone who has won every single trophy in the game a choker. Makes you sound like a hater, implying that Messi lacks mental toughness when the man is one of the greatest winners that football has ever seen.
Are you gonna call Zidane a choker for getting sent off in the World Cup final? Is Cristiano a choker for losing a Euro final to Greece? Or is it just Messi you have an issue with? |
I was about to say, Zidane got sent off in a World Cup Final, with a penalty shootout looming, because an opponent insulted his mother. Great mental toughness! |
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1995Lakers
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Joined: 26 Aug 2020
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | What a damn shame the true GOAT couldnt be ordained as in not the perennial choker Messi but the guy who has the flair of Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar without the extravagence and the calm coolness of Messi with the game similar to El Fenomeno R9 Ronaldo. Watching Mbappe was like watching Floyd Mayweather - a young great reach greatness at a young age and knowing the future is unlimited. What a shame he had to lose cause his teammates were not clutch enough. The mental fortitude to step up to the spot 3 times against a great penalty saver in Martinez and bury all his chances. I know a guy who has choked way too often on penalties and his name is Messi. |
I always feel like a person who can’t appreciate Messi is one who doesn’t really see the true beauty of the game.
Perhaps you’d feel differently if you’d taken a penalty in front of a crowd before, I can assure you it isn’t as easy as it looks when you get up there. |
You just validated my point as to why guys who dont choke on critical penalties - and there are guys who never seem to miss - are extremely mentally clutch. As in Mbappe. Or how about guys like Zidane, Hierro and Shearer. Some guys just dont miss penalties and when you see these guys step up to the spot - its pretty much a guaranteed goal. No one can say Messi is one of these people. Those who seem to love Messi just dont seem to appreciate the cuthroatness or ruthlessness of sport to win and dont appreciate those that have always displayed a clutch mental toughness from the very beginning at the highest levels of sport - like a Tom Brady or Madison Bumgarner or Magic Johnson |
You cannot call someone who has won every single trophy in the game a choker. Makes you sound like a hater, implying that Messi lacks mental toughness when the man is one of the greatest winners that football has ever seen.
Are you gonna call Zidane a choker for getting sent off in the World Cup final? Is Cristiano a choker for losing a Euro final to Greece? Or is it just Messi you have an issue with? |
Did u just start following Messi because the choking label on him has been around from the very beginning of his international career because too often when the game can be decided on his foot, he fails or worse disappears. Zidane and C. Ronaldo have proven themselves over and over again that they are no chokers. Dude this is a Messi thing. If u dont know what i am talking about, u really have not watched Messi long and should stop. |
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Moses
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Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 8247
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | Moses wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | What a damn shame the true GOAT couldnt be ordained as in not the perennial choker Messi but the guy who has the flair of Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar without the extravagence and the calm coolness of Messi with the game similar to El Fenomeno R9 Ronaldo. Watching Mbappe was like watching Floyd Mayweather - a young great reach greatness at a young age and knowing the future is unlimited. What a shame he had to lose cause his teammates were not clutch enough. The mental fortitude to step up to the spot 3 times against a great penalty saver in Martinez and bury all his chances. I know a guy who has choked way too often on penalties and his name is Messi. |
I always feel like a person who can’t appreciate Messi is one who doesn’t really see the true beauty of the game.
Perhaps you’d feel differently if you’d taken a penalty in front of a crowd before, I can assure you it isn’t as easy as it looks when you get up there. |
You just validated my point as to why guys who dont choke on critical penalties - and there are guys who never seem to miss - are extremely mentally clutch. As in Mbappe. Or how about guys like Zidane, Hierro and Shearer. Some guys just dont miss penalties and when you see these guys step up to the spot - its pretty much a guaranteed goal. No one can say Messi is one of these people. Those who seem to love Messi just dont seem to appreciate the cuthroatness or ruthlessness of sport to win and dont appreciate those that have always displayed a clutch mental toughness from the very beginning at the highest levels of sport - like a Tom Brady or Madison Bumgarner or Magic Johnson |
You cannot call someone who has won every single trophy in the game a choker. Makes you sound like a hater, implying that Messi lacks mental toughness when the man is one of the greatest winners that football has ever seen.
Are you gonna call Zidane a choker for getting sent off in the World Cup final? Is Cristiano a choker for losing a Euro final to Greece? Or is it just Messi you have an issue with? |
Did u just start following Messi because the choking label on him has been around from the very beginning of his international career because too often when the game can be decided on his foot, he fails or worse disappears. Zidane and C. Ronaldo have proven themselves over and over again that they are no chokers. Dude this is a Messi thing. If u dont know what i am talking about, u really have not watched Messi long and should stop. |
Messi who has won EVERY trophy available to him is a choker, but Zidane who got sent off in the biggest game of his career and achieved less than Messi did is clutch, despite only ever scoring 11 pens in his career (he missed 3 too btw). Also you seem to forget when Ronaldo missed a champions league final shootout penalty for United, or does that not suit the narrative because his team mates bailed him out? Same Ronaldo who has never scored a knockout stage goal in 5 world cups, and the same guy who lost to Greece in the 04 final and didn’t really play in the one they won.
Remember that Messi could’ve won the World Cup in 2014 too if not for Higuan missing a very good chance. But that’s probably Messi’s fault though right?
Messi lost some finals before he won the most recent 2.
Ronaldo lost a euros final and has missed 29 penalties in his career.
Zidane got sent off in the World Cup final and they lost.
Messi is no less clutch than the other 2, and has actually won more than either, but because he hasn’t been perfect that somehow means he’s a choker according to you.
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cathy78
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Joined: 21 Jan 2013
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 7:14 am Post subject: |
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The fact that Ronaldo calls himself Ronaldo without having any business calling himself Ronaldo disqualifies him from any achievements discussion. He should be ashamed.
So it is between Messi and Zidane. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Moses wrote: | | Messi is no less clutch than the other 2, and has actually won more than either, but because he hasn’t been perfect that somehow means he’s a choker according to you. |
To be fair, he did say the choking label was a general narrative placed upon Messi from the very beginning of his international career
| Quote: | | because the choking label on him has been around from the very beginning of his international career because too often when the game can be decided on his foot, he fails or worse disappears. |
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ChickenStu
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Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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There was a choking label on Messi, really? Did Barcelona not win a crapload of La Liga titles over Real Madrid during his time there? Did Barcelona not win Champions League titles? As for having not won Copa America before the last tournament, I mean, they are up against Brazil for those so it's not like those were gimmes, and he got one of those, and I would think that no one could be labeled a choker if they don't win the World Cup, given how insanely hard that is to do and that you're only 1 of 11 players on the pitch for your country. And even with that, he had still helped Argentina get to a World Cup final in '14. So now he's won a World Cup and been in two World Cup finals, along with all the other stuff he's done. Whether it's team trophies at the highest level, or individual accomplishments like the goal scoring, assisting, and, of course, all the Ballon D'Or wins, he's done it all.
Different question entirely, but where would some of you rank Andrea Pirlo among the all-time great midfielders? Compare him to, say, Iniesta or Xavi? Is Zidane a clear level ahead of these guys? Damn I loved Pirlo. |
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Moses
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Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 8247
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | There was a choking label on Messi, really? Did Barcelona not win a crapload of La Liga titles over Real Madrid during his time there? Did Barcelona not win Champions League titles? As for having not won Copa America before the last tournament, I mean, they are up against Brazil for those so it's not like those were gimmes, and he got one of those, and I would think that no one could be labeled a choker if they don't win the World Cup, given how insanely hard that is to do and that you're only 1 of 11 players on the pitch for your country. And even with that, he had still helped Argentina get to a World Cup final in '14. So now he's won a World Cup and been in two World Cup finals, along with all the other stuff he's done. Whether it's team trophies at the highest level, or individual accomplishments like the goal scoring, assisting, and, of course, all the Ballon D'Or wins, he's done it all.
Different question entirely, but where would some of you rank Andrea Pirlo among the all-time great midfielders? Compare him to, say, Iniesta or Xavi? Is Zidane a clear level ahead of these guys? Damn I loved Pirlo. |
I love Pirlo, personally would say he’s the worst of the 4 mentioned, I’d rank ZZ, then Iniesta, then Xavi. Think Scholes and Gerrard deserve to be in that conversation too, as elite midfielders of previous generation.
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lakersken80
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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For those saying that Gio Reyna's mother (and Claudio Reyna's wife) shouldn't have went to US Soccer with this, well, (bleep) for tat, Mr. Berhalter. Perhaps he shouldn't have smeared Gio Reyna so publicly. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Berhalter. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: |
For those saying that Gio Reyna's mother (and Claudio Reyna's wife) shouldn't have went to US Soccer with this, well, (bleep) for tat, Mr. Berhalter. Perhaps he shouldn't have smeared Gio Reyna so publicly. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Berhalter. |
Looks like they are already searching for the next USMNT team coach to babysit Gio. Zidane already turned down the job.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-zindeine-zidane-offered-rejected-215332269.html |
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ChickenStu
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: |
For those saying that Gio Reyna's mother (and Claudio Reyna's wife) shouldn't have went to US Soccer with this, well, (bleep) for tat, Mr. Berhalter. Perhaps he shouldn't have smeared Gio Reyna so publicly. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Berhalter. |
Looks like they are already searching for the next USMNT team coach to babysit Gio. Zidane already turned down the job.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-zindeine-zidane-offered-rejected-215332269.html |
I like that they are going after someone who is qualified for the position, at least. The 2026 World Cup will be our most anticipated ever, as the host and with our most talented roster to date, by far. It would be nice if we didn't have a jackass in charge. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gareth Bale announces his retirement. Only 33. Thought he would have had some time left, but I guess not. |
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Wilt
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Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 13529
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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He was never technically gifted, but relied heavily on speed in open space. As many great games as he had, he had as many when he was practically invisible for the whole game because he couldn't contribute when the game slow down and space tightened. Then a bunch of injuries slowed him down, and he had nothing to offer. Many Madrid fans began to hate him in the last few years because he got paid huge money to sit on the bench, seemingly not caring at all.
He had a good career.
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dont_be_a_wuss
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bale only has a few years left of hitting 300+ yard drives. Doesn’t want to waste his golfing prime on the soccer pitch. |
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lakersken80
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | He was never technically gifted, but relied heavily on speed in open space. As many great games as he had, he had as many when he was practically invisible for the whole game because he couldn't contribute when the game slow down and space tightened. Then a bunch of injuries slowed him down, and he had nothing to offer. Many Madrid fans began to hate him in the last few years because he got paid huge money to sit on the bench, seemingly not caring at all.
He had a good career. |
He had one of the best scissor kick goals I have ever seen in a big match, I think it was the 2018 UEFA Final vs. Liverpool.
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Wilt
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Come for the World Cup, Stay for the Public Beheadings!
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