ESPN: There's a gap between Clippers and Lakers (Clipper/Laker Discussion)
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levon
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 9:25 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
Clippers lost PG for nothing and basically added pieces on the edges with a hobbled KL and aging Harden as their main core, and yet, they're considered mid pack in Western Conference playoff standing according to media prediction. and Lakers with LeBron and AD, both are considerably better than Clippers' core, but the team is forecasted of being another play-in seed next year. this shows you how important to have a stable ownership/front office and coaching staff.

Or it shows how much the media sucks off the Clippers despite them being a colossal failure year after year. They all suffer from collective amnesia. Hey, maybe this year is the year!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 11:14 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
ducasse wrote:
Clipper initially offered 2/60 and he left for 4/212. What happened to Ballmer's deep pockets? He's got $130B.


I think 2/60 is more than fair for Paul George. He isn’t worth what the 76ers are paying him.


For perspsective: George is coming off back to back All-Star seasons, and is a 9x all-star, 6x all-nba, and 4x all-defensive. It's difficult to imagine him leaping at the opportunity to sign a 2 year deal to become the 50th highest paid player in the league? This isn't a washed up version of George, he's still an All-Star. And he had a player option for $48.8m which he opted out of.

There is no way he was going to add a second year for $12m. Yeah, he's 33. But that offer is an extreme lowball figure.

For comparison's sake, Franz Wagner just signed a $224m extension. His career best number are 19.7 points, 5.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, and 1.1 steals.


He's actually 34 now (May birthday).

The new CBA and the 2nd Tax Apron will have a huge impact going forward (or until the CBA changes). This is just the tip of the iceberg. Before the 2nd Tax Apron became a thing, I think PG would still easily be worth it as a MAX player. He'd probably still be a Clipper today.

Teams will now have to be diligent with their cap space. I believe we will see less players getting MAX contracts in their mid-30s than before. The returns on those guys are diminishing 99% of the time. They were getting paid for what they did at 30-31-32 years old, not what they're going to do at 37-38-39. It also doesn't help that max contracts are structured off "time of service".

PG asked for a no-trade clause from the Clippers, which is what I think really ended the chance of re-signing. The Clippers didn't want to be handcuffed to him in years 3-4, but PG was smart to ask for that NTC after what the Clippers did to Blake Griffin in 2017/2018. But if they gave PG the NTC, they'd look like the Wizards did with Beal and have zero control in trading him.

You also can't really compare PG to Franz Wagner, who is only 22 years old. Franz is on the upswing of his career and PG most likely has 1-2 all-star caliber years left. I think PG only got this deal from Philly because they needed to make a big upgrade before Maxey's extension kicks in. They're giving Embiid a much better chance to win for the next 2 seasons, but they will probably not like PG's contract very much in years 3 and 4.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 11:17 am    Post subject:

levon wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
Clippers lost PG for nothing and basically added pieces on the edges with a hobbled KL and aging Harden as their main core, and yet, they're considered mid pack in Western Conference playoff standing according to media prediction. and Lakers with LeBron and AD, both are considerably better than Clippers' core, but the team is forecasted of being another play-in seed next year. this shows you how important to have a stable ownership/front office and coaching staff.

Or it shows how much the media sucks off the Clippers despite them being a colossal failure year after year. They all suffer from collective amnesia. Hey, maybe this year is the year!


Definitely the latter.

Had AD walked away from the Lakers for nothing, ESPN would've had a special page on "The Decline of the Lakers." There was hardly a peep about PG13.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Lamar's Bud wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
ducasse wrote:
Clipper initially offered 2/60 and he left for 4/212. What happened to Ballmer's deep pockets? He's got $130B.


I think 2/60 is more than fair for Paul George. He isn’t worth what the 76ers are paying him.


For perspsective: George is coming off back to back All-Star seasons, and is a 9x all-star, 6x all-nba, and 4x all-defensive. It's difficult to imagine him leaping at the opportunity to sign a 2 year deal to become the 50th highest paid player in the league? This isn't a washed up version of George, he's still an All-Star. And he had a player option for $48.8m which he opted out of.

There is no way he was going to add a second year for $12m. Yeah, he's 33. But that offer is an extreme lowball figure.

For comparison's sake, Franz Wagner just signed a $224m extension. His career best number are 19.7 points, 5.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, and 1.1 steals.


He's actually 34 now (May birthday).

The new CBA and the 2nd Tax Apron will have a huge impact going forward (or until the CBA changes). This is just the tip of the iceberg. Before the 2nd Tax Apron became a thing, I think PG would still easily be worth it as a MAX player. He'd probably still be a Clipper today.

Teams will now have to be diligent with their cap space. I believe we will see less players getting MAX contracts in their mid-30s than before. The returns on those guys are diminishing 99% of the time. They were getting paid for what they did at 30-31-32 years old, not what they're going to do at 37-38-39. It also doesn't help that max contracts are structured off "time of service".

PG asked for a no-trade clause from the Clippers, which is what I think really ended the chance of re-signing. The Clippers didn't want to be handcuffed to him in years 3-4, but PG was smart to ask for that NTC after what the Clippers did to Blake Griffin in 2017/2018. But if they gave PG the NTC, they'd look like the Wizards did with Beal and have zero control in trading him.

You also can't really compare PG to Franz Wagner, who is only 22 years old. Franz is on the upswing of his career and PG most likely has 1-2 all-star caliber years left. I think PG only got this deal from Philly because they needed to make a big upgrade before Maxey's extension kicks in. They're giving Embiid a much better chance to win for the next 2 seasons, but they will probably not like PG's contract very much in years 3 and 4.


I think a vet like PG adds more to winning than a still developing Franz. You said 1-2 All-Star years left as if it's a bad thing - that likely supersedes whatever Franz can put together the next two seasons. I don't disagree that PG's deal in Years 3 and 4 probably won't age well, but both deals are equally bad in that you're probably not gonna get a prime Franz that justifies his contract until the second half of his deal...and that's still a theoretical unlike a PG coming off an All-Star season. Franz MIGHT be worth it down the line, but I know PG is worth it right now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:00 pm    Post subject:

76ers are in win-now mode. Embiid does not have many years of MVP level play left given his injury history.

But Clippers are also in win now mode given Kawhi’s contract and the fact that they don’t even own their own picks. So it didn’t make sense to let him walk.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:39 pm    Post subject:

Clippers really botched the PG negotiation. They offered him 2/60 which was an extreme lowball offer which offended him when he had a $48m player option. If he had accepted it he would have been playing the second year for $12 million. He countered with 3/150. Clippers said no. He then shut down negotiations until the season was over. He had a good season and played 74 games and Clippers offered him 3/150 at the end of the season and told him in their pitch that they want him to retire as a Clipper. He said he would take 3/150 with a no trade clause since he could get four years on the open market, and didn't Clippers just tell him they want him to retire as a Clipper? They said no and he was done with them.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 2:11 pm    Post subject:

Zach Lowe pointed out on his pod that the 2-$60m was probably via opt-in with an extension of two years. So that would have been roughly 3-$110m. They apparently got up to the Kawhi deal of 3-$150m.

In any account, both offers are a far cry from the 4-$212 he got from Philly.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:20 pm    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
Lamar's Bud wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
ducasse wrote:
Clipper initially offered 2/60 and he left for 4/212. What happened to Ballmer's deep pockets? He's got $130B.


I think 2/60 is more than fair for Paul George. He isn’t worth what the 76ers are paying him.


For perspsective: George is coming off back to back All-Star seasons, and is a 9x all-star, 6x all-nba, and 4x all-defensive. It's difficult to imagine him leaping at the opportunity to sign a 2 year deal to become the 50th highest paid player in the league? This isn't a washed up version of George, he's still an All-Star. And he had a player option for $48.8m which he opted out of.

There is no way he was going to add a second year for $12m. Yeah, he's 33. But that offer is an extreme lowball figure.

For comparison's sake, Franz Wagner just signed a $224m extension. His career best number are 19.7 points, 5.3 rebounds, 3.7 assists, and 1.1 steals.


He's actually 34 now (May birthday).

The new CBA and the 2nd Tax Apron will have a huge impact going forward (or until the CBA changes). This is just the tip of the iceberg. Before the 2nd Tax Apron became a thing, I think PG would still easily be worth it as a MAX player. He'd probably still be a Clipper today.

Teams will now have to be diligent with their cap space. I believe we will see less players getting MAX contracts in their mid-30s than before. The returns on those guys are diminishing 99% of the time. They were getting paid for what they did at 30-31-32 years old, not what they're going to do at 37-38-39. It also doesn't help that max contracts are structured off "time of service".

PG asked for a no-trade clause from the Clippers, which is what I think really ended the chance of re-signing. The Clippers didn't want to be handcuffed to him in years 3-4, but PG was smart to ask for that NTC after what the Clippers did to Blake Griffin in 2017/2018. But if they gave PG the NTC, they'd look like the Wizards did with Beal and have zero control in trading him.

You also can't really compare PG to Franz Wagner, who is only 22 years old. Franz is on the upswing of his career and PG most likely has 1-2 all-star caliber years left. I think PG only got this deal from Philly because they needed to make a big upgrade before Maxey's extension kicks in. They're giving Embiid a much better chance to win for the next 2 seasons, but they will probably not like PG's contract very much in years 3 and 4.


I think a vet like PG adds more to winning than a still developing Franz. You said 1-2 All-Star years left as if it's a bad thing - that likely supersedes whatever Franz can put together the next two seasons. I don't disagree that PG's deal in Years 3 and 4 probably won't age well, but both deals are equally bad in that you're probably not gonna get a prime Franz that justifies his contract until the second half of his deal...and that's still a theoretical unlike a PG coming off an All-Star season. Franz MIGHT be worth it down the line, but I know PG is worth it right now.


There is zero similarity other than large $ figures. Obviously PG gets you closer to a championship today and next year, but the objectives of the Magic and Sixers are completely different for the next two years. Franz is on a rebuilding/up-and-coming team. PG is in win-now mode.

Orlando is building for a future and paying to keep one of their young, core players around.

Philly is paying PG to help them contend for at least the next 2 seasons and hoping he doesn't become an albatross in years 3-4. Although there is future risk, this was the move Philly needed to make before Maxey's extension kicks in. Saying that it's "worth it" already is a bit premature. Let them play some games and win some playoff series first. They needed to do it if they want to contend for a championship. Now it's up to Embiid/PG/Maxey and the rest of the team to perform on the floor.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:51 pm    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Zach Lowe pointed out on his pod that the 2-$60m was probably via opt-in with an extension of two years. So that would have been roughly 3-$110m. They apparently got up to the Kawhi deal of 3-$150m.

In any account, both offers are a far cry from the 4-$212 he got from Philly.


It might have been opt in and 2/60. Clippers could have kept him at 3/150 if they had just said yes to a no trade clause. Weird decision to let a no trade clause end the relationship when they gave up so much for him. I think he will still be a very good player at 37 and salaries will be higher three years from now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:15 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
levon wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
Clippers lost PG for nothing and basically added pieces on the edges with a hobbled KL and aging Harden as their main core, and yet, they're considered mid pack in Western Conference playoff standing according to media prediction. and Lakers with LeBron and AD, both are considerably better than Clippers' core, but the team is forecasted of being another play-in seed next year. this shows you how important to have a stable ownership/front office and coaching staff.

Or it shows how much the media sucks off the Clippers despite them being a colossal failure year after year. They all suffer from collective amnesia. Hey, maybe this year is the year!


Definitely the latter.

Had AD walked away from the Lakers for nothing, ESPN would've had a special page on "The Decline of the Lakers." There was hardly a peep about PG13.


Yup.

Imagine the Bill Plaschke hit pieces after trading the farm for a pseudo-star, not winning (bleep) and he leaving for nothing after a few years

(bleep) the Clippers. They're definitely NOT what you want to be.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2024 5:59 pm    Post subject:

What you guys don't get, the Lakers standard is such that 1 title in the Bron/AD era seems weak. The Clippers are never going to be held to that standard.

Rightfully. Lakers and Boston are the 2 teams that are expected to be elite more often than not.

If Clips win even one, it will be the biggest feat. Boston just won 18, and it's no biggie. Why? That's what Boston does. Tatum would never have had the pressure he did in Boston in a Clipper jersey. He's admitted that there was pressure. It's off his back now.

Kawhi and PG, go back and watch Ballmer's PC when they were introduced. It was pathetic how Ballmer was acting. You can tell a true novice in the NBA. Guy hasn't won anything and is acting that just teaming up 2 guys like that means rings galore. Why? Because he chants it and is so loud and encouraging. Running microsoft and the NBA are 2 different things.

Don't get me wrong. Jeanie's been pretty meh too. However the one thing Jeanie does get, there's a standard. There's a level of expectation. The players that put on the Laker jersey, they understand that as well.

Clips be Clips.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 5:24 am    Post subject:

So does this mean the Clippers are less hateable now?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:48 am    Post subject:

The Kawhi experience is a wild ride.

Quote:
Kawhi Leonard is withdrawing from Team USA for the Paris Olympics and will be replaced, sources tell me and @joevardon. Boston’s Derrick White is a strong candidate to replace Leonard on Team USA, sources said.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:58 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
So does this mean the Clippers are less hateable now?

Only slightly less hateable than the Celtics. Ever so slightly.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:03 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
So does this mean the Clippers are less hateable now?


Nope.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:07 am    Post subject:

troy wrote:
So does this mean the Clippers are less hateable now?


Streetlight over spotlight? Banner over balmer beyotch (mid season don’t count tho)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:37 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
The Kawhi experience is a wild ride.

Quote:
Kawhi Leonard is withdrawing from Team USA for the Paris Olympics and will be replaced, sources tell me and @joevardon. Boston’s Derrick White is a strong candidate to replace Leonard on Team USA, sources said.


Any reason given?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:27 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
ocho wrote:
The Kawhi experience is a wild ride.

Quote:
Kawhi Leonard is withdrawing from Team USA for the Paris Olympics and will be replaced, sources tell me and @joevardon. Boston’s Derrick White is a strong candidate to replace Leonard on Team USA, sources said.


Any reason given?


Quote:
Team USA and Kawhi Leonard made the decision to withdraw him from the 2024 Olympics due to “game-speed” concerns, per @ShamsCharania.

“Coaches said he was performing well while “ramping up” to full speed for the Olympics. But Leonard and the U.S. team decided his knee, which caused him to miss the last eight games of the regular season and most of the LA Clippers’ first-round playoff series against the Dallas Mavericks, would not allow him to play at the speed necessary in what’s expected to be a hard-fought Olympic tournament. The Clippers and the NBA were also concerned Leonard could do further damage to his knee this summer and put his status for the start of the regular season in jeopardy, when the Clippers open their $2 billion Intuit Dome Arena, the sources said. But teams are not permitted to prevent players from competing for their countries in the Olympics, so this was ultimately a decision made by Leonard and Team USA.”

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:43 am    Post subject:

as bad as we are, i do not want to hear how:
Rich ballmer is
How good the FO is
How elite their coach is
The clippers have and always will be a trainwreck.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:52 am    Post subject:

Stick a fork in Kawhi, he’s done.

Lakers lucked out with him not joining. The Spurs were correct in their medical assessment.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:54 am    Post subject:

Screw Kawhi and PG.. They literally just leveraged us with no intention of signing causing us to miss out on other Free agents...

Glad their time with the Clippers failed miserably
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Stick a fork in Kawhi, he’s done.

Lakers lucked out with him not joining. The Spurs were correct in their medical assessment.


What was the Spurs’ medical assessment? What do you think would have happened if we had signed Kawhi? Would we have still won in 2020?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:57 am    Post subject:

Poor Kawhi man. So talented, but his knee...does this all relate back to Zaza? How much did he change the league?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:06 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Stick a fork in Kawhi, he’s done.

Lakers lucked out with him not joining. The Spurs were correct in their medical assessment.


Glue factory time
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:10 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
LakerSD wrote:
Stick a fork in Kawhi, he’s done.

Lakers lucked out with him not joining. The Spurs were correct in their medical assessment.


What was the Spurs’ medical assessment? What do you think would have happened if we had signed Kawhi? Would we have still won in 2020?


Great question! I don't know the answer, but had we focused on Jimmy Butler instead, I think we'd have won multiple rings. I understand the FO staying with Kawhi until the bitter end. I just hate that he was so disingenuous - the Lakers hadn't done jack to him, but Kawhi (and West, btw) were just malicious in their attempts to sabotage the Lakers (remember the Serge Ibaka fiasco the following summer?).

I don't wish injury on anyone. I am very glad that the Clippers are coming apart at the seams.
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