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tox
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 Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
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miggz23
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
Huh? Vincent already on this team. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| miggz23 wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
Huh? Vincent already on this team. |
Oh, ambiguous antecedent lol. That "they" referred to Miami (last offseason) |
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MJST
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| Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2024 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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A healthy Gabe can give you enough of what Schroeder can.
The healthy Gabe part is the most important part of that equation though.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
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Hanging from Rafters
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
Vincent can be of tremendous value to the Lakers paired with Hayes and a pick in a trade for Wendell Carter jr.
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | tox wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
Vincent can be of tremendous value to the Lakers paired with Hayes and a pick in a trade for Wendell Carter jr. |
From your lips to Rob's ears |
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JJin77
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | tox wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
Vincent can be of tremendous value to the Lakers paired with Hayes and a pick in a trade for Wendell Carter jr. |
From your lips to Rob's ears |
but why would magic agree to such deal when they are trying to compete themselves? WCJ would be a very nice get, but it doesn't seem likely. |
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tox
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| JJin77 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: |
Vincent can be of tremendous value to the Lakers paired with Hayes and a pick in a trade for Wendell Carter jr. |
From your lips to Rob's ears |
but why would magic agree to such deal when they are trying to compete themselves? WCJ would be a very nice get, but it doesn't seem likely. |
Yeah, they wouldn't. I've posted this a million times but my suggested trade would be a 3 team trade with Portland:
LAL: WCJ
POR: Vincent, Howard, Houstan, Reddish, LAL FRP
ORL: Simons
This is mostly because even with KCP, the Magic lack shot creation. I think Paolo Banchero will be a star, but he's not one yet and if they run the offense through him, the Magic will be another bottom-15 offense. The Magic don't need WCJ (Mo Wagner, Goga, and Isaac are all capable at the 5) and they get a dynamic on ball / off ball player (plus a '26 expiring in case they want to trade for a star before Banchero is up for his supermax) for free, without surrendering draft capital. And they're the one team that can cover his defensive issues most easily. |
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manlisten
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
There was mutual interest in a return but the Heat were up against the tax and limited in what they could offer. We can just look this stuff up to verify. They also lost Max Strus for the same reason.
| Quote: | | With the Heat entering free agency this past offseason already deep into the luxury tax, even just adding $2 million to Vincent’s salary for this upcoming season would have added more than $5 million to the team’s tax bill based on Miami’s then-salary cap situation. |
https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article281395743.html
| Quote: | | Vincent’s preference was to return to Miami, where he emerged as the team’s starting point guard during their NBA Finals run. But the Heat declined to offer Vincent more than $8 million per season because of how far they are above the first luxury tax line. |
https://allucanheat.com/2023/06/30/miami-heat-lose-gabe-vincent-lakers-free-agency/
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
Well that argument was made by some fans for Caruso/Lakers. LA offered Caruso 14M/2 at the time or 21/3. Caruso was getting 9-10M a year offers.
If a team really wants to keep you, they will price/market match. The Clippers did the same with Paul George. Doesn't mean you're a bad player. You could be a great player like Paul George. However IMO if a team really wants you, they will match market value or even go over, because they don't want to lose you. The Heat had no interest in going this route for Nunn or Vincent, because they didn't value them much. This is all subjective of course, but 3 years of ex-Miami Heat guards and we've got almost nothing to show for it ... it stings a bit.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:32 am Post subject: |
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^^
Sounds a lot like Lakers with Caruso, only difference is Caruso actually showed his value outside of Lakers, increased it in fact, while Vincent turned out to be a dud in LA.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think Vincent has some positive value to a team in the right situation. If they have a great shooting 2 guard that can create a lot of baskets make a lot of things happen, basically an all-star, he can probably fit in as your starter. On a team like the Lakers where his running mate will be either Austin or DLO, I have my doubts that he'll ever fit in the way he did with Miami for that brief success in 2023 playoffs.
I'm not sure what significant positive value he brings as a non-starter. Compared to Dennis who was good at pressuring the ball, creating a lot of offense with drives and just has history being a 6MOTY candidate/bench leader, Vincent is not that sort of player. His best role was when he could do what he did for Miami (bring in some stable ballhandling, man defense, play off star guards etc).
Take away that Miami run in 2023
His numbers indicate: Weak 3 point shooting, low creativity with the ball and not much impact. He's not a MLE/11M level player. You could get vet min level players to do what he's done over the other periods of his career (plus last years 11 games). |
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manlisten
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 7:11 am Post subject: |
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If you're arguing that Gabe isn't exactly a proven player, I agree. If you're arguing that Miami didn't value him or want him back I'd say that's false.
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It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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MJST
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Gabe has value if he's healthy. That's where it begins and ends at.
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tox
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | tox wrote: | They want Christie to do the full court press too.
Also, they wanted to bring back Vincent, just not at $11M |
That's what I mean. When a team says they want you and they don't offer market value, that means they don't really want you.
Heat didn't value Vincent, certainly not enough to pay him. They kept Herro, they kept even Duncan Robinson. They're willing to pay their young players/players that develop in their system. |
They valued Vincent enough to pay him something like $7M. It's fair to say either that the Lakers overpaid or that they valued him more than the Heat did, but it's not fair to pretend like the Heat just didn't want him back |
Well that argument was made by some fans for Caruso/Lakers. LA offered Caruso 14M/2 at the time or 21/3. Caruso was getting 9-10M a year offers.
If a team really wants to keep you, they will price/market match. The Clippers did the same with Paul George. Doesn't mean you're a bad player. You could be a great player like Paul George. However IMO if a team really wants you, they will match market value or even go over, because they don't want to lose you. The Heat had no interest in going this route for Nunn or Vincent, because they didn't value them much. This is all subjective of course, but 3 years of ex-Miami Heat guards and we've got almost nothing to show for it ... it stings a bit. |
Yea but the criticism of the Lakers' FO is that they did not value him enough (to pay luxury tax and/or let THT go). You can also say Miami did not value Gabe enough, but the point remains that there was mutual interest |
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JJin77
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | JJin77 wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: |
Vincent can be of tremendous value to the Lakers paired with Hayes and a pick in a trade for Wendell Carter jr. |
From your lips to Rob's ears |
but why would magic agree to such deal when they are trying to compete themselves? WCJ would be a very nice get, but it doesn't seem likely. |
Yeah, they wouldn't. I've posted this a million times but my suggested trade would be a 3 team trade with Portland:
LAL: WCJ
POR: Vincent, Howard, Houstan, Reddish, LAL FRP
ORL: Simons
This is mostly because even with KCP, the Magic lack shot creation. I think Paolo Banchero will be a star, but he's not one yet and if they run the offense through him, the Magic will be another bottom-15 offense. The Magic don't need WCJ (Mo Wagner, Goga, and Isaac are all capable at the 5) and they get a dynamic on ball / off ball player (plus a '26 expiring in case they want to trade for a star before Banchero is up for his supermax) for free, without surrendering draft capital. And they're the one team that can cover his defensive issues most easily. |
That seems more likely but it still leaves Magic without a starting level center.
They got Mo Wagner, Jonathan Issac and Bitaze, but none of them are full time starting center for serious team for different reasons. But Mo Vagner or Bitaze is someone who can really help us. Preferably a brusier type in Goga would be ideal backup to AD. |
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tox
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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As a general principle I agree with you, but the Magic may evaluate their center situation differently. Plus sometimes you need to give up talent to gain talent, and WCJ has injury concerns anyway. I think my proposed trade is a bad one for the Magic if I'm being honest, but I'd say it's at least plausible to not get laughed at depending on how the Orlando GM looks at things.
A Vincent for Bitadze trade could make sense if Vincent had a strong rebound season and the Magic want a guard who fits their defensive identity while still having some offensive juice, and Bitadze isn't really seeing PT. He did only play garbage time in last year's playoffs. |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^^
Sounds a lot like Lakers with Caruso, only difference is Caruso actually showed his value outside of Lakers, increased it in fact, while Vincent turned out to be a dud in LA.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think Vincent has some positive value to a team in the right situation. If they have a great shooting 2 guard that can create a lot of baskets make a lot of things happen, basically an all-star, he can probably fit in as your starter. On a team like the Lakers where his running mate will be either Austin or DLO, I have my doubts that he'll ever fit in the way he did with Miami for that brief success in 2023 playoffs.
I'm not sure what significant positive value he brings as a non-starter. Compared to Dennis who was good at pressuring the ball, creating a lot of offense with drives and just has history being a 6MOTY candidate/bench leader, Vincent is not that sort of player. His best role was when he could do what he did for Miami (bring in some stable ballhandling, man defense, play off star guards etc).
Take away that Miami run in 2023
His numbers indicate: Weak 3 point shooting, low creativity with the ball and not much impact. He's not a MLE/11M level player. You could get vet min level players to do what he's done over the other periods of his career (plus last years 11 games). |
Well said wolf. Gabe impact for most of his career has been on the vet min level.
Players who have signed for vet min this summer who will likley have a bigger impact
Tyus Jones (what a freaking steal)
Alec Burks
T.Prince
G.Trent
M.Plumee
Westbrook (lol)
Dinwiddie
We are over paying way too many guys compared to what they would currently get on free agent market. Rui, Gabe, Christie, Vando. I see about 18mill in over pay right there for team that's basically acting hard capped with no flexibilit.
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defense
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^^
Sounds a lot like Lakers with Caruso, only difference is Caruso actually showed his value outside of Lakers, increased it in fact, while Vincent turned out to be a dud in LA.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think Vincent has some positive value to a team in the right situation. If they have a great shooting 2 guard that can create a lot of baskets make a lot of things happen, basically an all-star, he can probably fit in as your starter. On a team like the Lakers where his running mate will be either Austin or DLO, I have my doubts that he'll ever fit in the way he did with Miami for that brief success in 2023 playoffs.
I'm not sure what significant positive value he brings as a non-starter. Compared to Dennis who was good at pressuring the ball, creating a lot of offense with drives and just has history being a 6MOTY candidate/bench leader, Vincent is not that sort of player. His best role was when he could do what he did for Miami (bring in some stable ballhandling, man defense, play off star guards etc).
Take away that Miami run in 2023
His numbers indicate: Weak 3 point shooting, low creativity with the ball and not much impact. He's not a MLE/11M level player. You could get vet min level players to do what he's done over the other periods of his career (plus last years 11 games). |
Well said wolf. Gabe impact for most of his career has been on the vet min level.
Players who have signed for vet min this summer who will likley have a bigger impact
Tyus Jones (what a freaking steal)
Alec Burks
T.Prince
G.Trent
M.Plumee
Westbrook (lol)
Dinwiddie
We are over paying way too many guys compared to what they would currently get on free agent market. Rui, Gabe, Christie, Vando. I see about 18mill in over pay right there for team that's basically acting hard capped with no flexibilit. |
In fairness, we don't really know what he can give us because he has not been healthy. Maybe he balls out this season? |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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^^^ look at his career. 7.4PPG/2.3AST 39.5FG% and 33% from 3. Vet min numbers if I ever saw them.
Yes he brings intangibles, things not measures in box score similar to a Fisher. But it's still an overpay.
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^^
Sounds a lot like Lakers with Caruso, only difference is Caruso actually showed his value outside of Lakers, increased it in fact, while Vincent turned out to be a dud in LA.
Don't get me wrong, I actually think Vincent has some positive value to a team in the right situation. If they have a great shooting 2 guard that can create a lot of baskets make a lot of things happen, basically an all-star, he can probably fit in as your starter. On a team like the Lakers where his running mate will be either Austin or DLO, I have my doubts that he'll ever fit in the way he did with Miami for that brief success in 2023 playoffs.
I'm not sure what significant positive value he brings as a non-starter. Compared to Dennis who was good at pressuring the ball, creating a lot of offense with drives and just has history being a 6MOTY candidate/bench leader, Vincent is not that sort of player. His best role was when he could do what he did for Miami (bring in some stable ballhandling, man defense, play off star guards etc).
Take away that Miami run in 2023
His numbers indicate: Weak 3 point shooting, low creativity with the ball and not much impact. He's not a MLE/11M level player. You could get vet min level players to do what he's done over the other periods of his career (plus last years 11 games). |
Well said wolf. Gabe impact for most of his career has been on the vet min level.
Players who have signed for vet min this summer who will likley have a bigger impact
Tyus Jones (what a freaking steal)
Alec Burks
T.Prince
G.Trent
M.Plumee
Westbrook (lol)
Dinwiddie
We are over paying way too many guys compared to what they would currently get on free agent market. Rui, Gabe, Christie, Vando. I see about 18mill in over pay right there for team that's basically acting hard capped with no flexibilit. |
In fairness, we don't really know what he can give us because he has not been healthy. Maybe he balls out this season? |
Tyrus Jones and Gary Trent were indeed steals!
By subtraction, Prince was a good deal for the Lakers
Keeping Dinwiddle was not realistic because of salaries - probably the reason why the Lakers were serious about Jones or Trent
Hopefully Vando, Hayes, CWood and Vincent will stay relatively healthy this upcoming season so that they can show how they imporive their "package" during the off-season |
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waterman40
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:59 am Post subject: |
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I would really like to see Vincent come back and play his heart out this season.
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defense
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| waterman40 wrote: | | I would really like to see Vincent come back and play his heart out this season. |
We all would |
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pio2u
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