This is why the rest of the world should no longer trust us.
Even if we have free elections again and even if those people vote for Democrats in the next election, then may very well go back to voting for the Republicans again. And I can already see it: the Republicans (bleep) up everything, the independents turn against them and vote them out in 2026, the Democrats come in inheriting a freaking mess, the Democrats can't even begin to solve all the problems, the independents are pissed at Democrats.
We have millions of irrational and uninformed people deciding elections. And I'm not even talking about MAGA voters here.
_________________ Don't blame me. I voted for Kamala Harris and Hillary Clinton.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 31034 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 8:53 am Post subject:
Expanding turnout among the VEP (Voting Eligible Population) is the answer. As long as 30%+ of people stay on the couch. Our country is screwed.
Lie, make promises you know are impossible to keep. whatever it takes. Get those people off their couch and in a booth.
What we've done in recent elections to motivate non-voters hasn't been enough. We can accept it, keep trying the same thing expecting a different outcome, or we can try something new. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
Sen. Chris Van Hollen said if the Maryland man whom the administration acknowledged mistakenly deporting was not back in the U.S. by 'midweek,' the senator would travel to El Salvador.
Quote:
The idea gained support from several Democratic lawmakers, who said they would be willing to join Van Hollen on the trip.
"We must all stand as a united front against the kidnapping and illegal detention of Kilmar Abrego Garcia in El Salvador," progressive Rep. Maxwell Frost, D-Fla., said in a post to X, tagging Van Hollen. "Senator, I am willing to join you and help Organize other members of the House to do the same."
_________________ If we don't make it dangerous to be a Nazi
They'll make it dangerous not to be
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 15441 Location: Boulder ;)
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 9:09 am Post subject:
More proof needed?
35 dead 120 wounded.
Just a mistake...
US blocking G7 statement denouncing Russia's Sumy strike, Bloomberg reports
Quote:
Canada, currently chairing the G7 group, reportedly told other members that the statement could not be adopted without U.S. support. According to Bloomberg, the statement was to denounce Russia's attack as evidence that Moscow is determined to continue its war.
While European leaders have denounced the attack as a war crime, Trump adopted a softer tone, saying that while the strike was "terrible," it likely occurred by "mistake," without elaborating further.
More proof needed?
35 dead 120 wounded.
Just a mistake...
US blocking G7 statement denouncing Russia's Sumy strike, Bloomberg reports
Quote:
Canada, currently chairing the G7 group, reportedly told other members that the statement could not be adopted without U.S. support. According to Bloomberg, the statement was to denounce Russia's attack as evidence that Moscow is determined to continue its war.
While European leaders have denounced the attack as a war crime, Trump adopted a softer tone, saying that while the strike was "terrible," it likely occurred by "mistake," without elaborating further.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 55344 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 9:26 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
ribeye wrote:
More James Carville, though not his articulate best. Though I don't see it quite as he does, at least he recognizes there is a real problem with Democrats and identity politics and how this poorly intersects with electoral politics.
Why is he talking about a random D.C. insider special interest group conference to describe progressives, instead of Sanders and AOC packing Idaho arenas with anti oligarch/billionaire messaging?
I'll always have love for Carville. He's done so much through the years to help Democrats get power and maintain power. I genuinely think his heart is in the right place. He wants Dems to win. Everything else is second to that.
But I don't think he understands the world of post-Trump politics. I think he supported Schumer's decision (somewhat) as well.
But correct me if I'm wrong on the Schumer thing.
Yeah, we have gone over this mulriple times. Great guy, and no doubt he has been sharp as a tack over the years, but he is another exampke of one of those old school guys who the years have passed by in regards to being really on top of what the world is now.
And, on another note, "Identity Politics" is a BS GOP term meant to be dismissive of those who who don't fit the typical norms. It's like the bastardization of the "woke".
Everybody has their own identity and the groups the identify with; as it should be. Ignoring that and or relegating that to an inconsequential matter that is "problematic" is a huge symptom of why we are in the social mess we are now. _________________ "You know it seems the more we talk about it, it only makes it worse to live without it."
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90867 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:02 am Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
ribeye wrote:
More James Carville, though not his articulate best. Though I don't see it quite as he does, at least he recognizes there is a real problem with Democrats and identity politics and how this poorly intersects with electoral politics.
Why is he talking about a random D.C. insider special interest group conference to describe progressives, instead of Sanders and AOC packing Idaho arenas with anti oligarch/billionaire messaging?
I'll always have love for Carville. He's done so much through the years to help Democrats get power and maintain power. I genuinely think his heart is in the right place. He wants Dems to win. Everything else is second to that.
But I don't think he understands the world of post-Trump politics. I think he supported Schumer's decision (somewhat) as well.
But correct me if I'm wrong on the Schumer thing.
Yeah, we have gone over this mulriple times. Great guy, and no doubt he has been sharp as a tack over the years, but he is another exampke of one of those old school guys who the years have passed by in regards to being really on top of what the world is now.
And, on another note, "Identity Politics" is a BS GOP term meant to be dismissive of those who who don't fit the typical norms. It's like the bastardization of the "woke".
Everybody has their own identity and the groups the identify with; as it should be. Ignoring that and or relegating that to an inconsequential matter that is "problematic" is a huge symptom of why we are in the social mess we are now.
Carville is very much like David Axelrod. Really sharp at the right time, but now sliding into that nostalgic comfort period. It’s funny, carville wrote a book during the Obama presidency trumpeting how the gop would be in the wilderness for 35 years. The main problem with these guys is their willingness, and that of so many on the progressive and moderate ends of the democratic coalition, to just throw the vulnerable under the bus. Like it or not, this country is divided by identity, and trying to act like the Dems need to stop articulating it is both cowardly and privileged, which is why you usually hear it out of the mouths of cis white hetero men. _________________ Hoy por ellos, mañana por nosotros
“You see, in this world, there is one awful thing, and that is that everyone has his reasons“
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 55344 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:09 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
And, on another note, "Identity Politics" is a BS GOP term meant to be dismissive of those who who don't fit the typical norms. It's like the bastardization of the "woke".
Everybody has their own identity and the groups the identify with; as it should be. Ignoring that and or relegating that to an inconsequential matter that is "problematic" is a huge symptom of why we are in the social mess we are now.
Carville is very much like David Axelrod. Really sharp at the right time, but now sliding into that nostalgic comfort period. It’s funny, carville wrote a book during the Obama presidency trumpeting how the gop would be in the wilderness for 35 years. The main problem with these guys is their willingness, and that of so many on the progressive and moderate ends of the democratic coalition, to just throw the vulnerable under the bus. Like it or not, this country is divided by identity, and trying to act like the Dems need to stop articulating it is both cowardly and privileged, which is why you usually hear it out of the mouths of cis white hetero men.
That's a perfectly succinct and elaboration on the point. _________________ "You know it seems the more we talk about it, it only makes it worse to live without it."
More James Carville, though not his articulate best. Though I don't see it quite as he does, at least he recognizes there is a real problem with Democrats and identity politics and how this poorly intersects with electoral politics.
Why is he talking about a random D.C. insider special interest group conference to describe progressives, instead of Sanders and AOC packing Idaho arenas with anti oligarch/billionaire messaging?
I'll always have love for Carville. He's done so much through the years to help Democrats get power and maintain power. I genuinely think his heart is in the right place. He wants Dems to win. Everything else is second to that.
But I don't think he understands the world of post-Trump politics. I think he supported Schumer's decision (somewhat) as well.
But correct me if I'm wrong on the Schumer thing.
Yeah, we have gone over this mulriple times. Great guy, and no doubt he has been sharp as a tack over the years, but he is another exampke of one of those old school guys who the years have passed by in regards to being really on top of what the world is now.
And, on another note, "Identity Politics" is a BS GOP term meant to be dismissive of those who who don't fit the typical norms. It's like the bastardization of the "woke".
Everybody has their own identity and the groups the identify with; as it should be. Ignoring that and or relegating that to an inconsequential matter that is "problematic" is a huge symptom of why we are in the social mess we are now.
Well, you gotta admit, this old world guy managed to his guy elected (a southerner ta boot and twice), and the new world approach the last time around, failed. I'll take him over the Biden team any day!
Regardless of what one feels identity politics means, and to whom, a large swath of the American electorate don't seem to like it.
It seems to me that getting elected, when the alternative is what we are facing, should be a strong, if not the strongest, motive for the Democratic Party. _________________ Hey Doge, ever hear of “measure twice, cut once?” It is not cut first and measure later.
Is FDR's campaign chairman still alive? He managed to get FDR elected four times!
Losing the last election doesn't mean we should automatically listen to someone that was involved in presidential campaigning 30 years ago.
Keep in mind, Carville predicted a Harris victory with a lot of confidence. He was wrong, so now we have to listen to him, the same guy who probably would have been a footnote in history if it wasn't for Ross Perot?
Which doesn't mean that he is wrong on everything, but we shouldn't just take his advice by default.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 55344 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:50 am Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
Well, you gotta admit, this old world guy managed to his guy elected (a southerner ta boot and twice), and the new world approach the last time around, failed.
He sure did . . . in a whole different political climate than we face now.
And there was nothing "new world" about this last campaign; THAT was the problem.
Quote:
I'll take him over the Biden team any day!
Huh? Biden didn't run in this last election. And when he did run, Biden won.
Quote:
Regardless of what one feels identity politics means, and to whom, a large swath of the American electorate don't seem to like it.
It seems to me that getting elected, when the alternative is what we are facing, should be a strong, if not the strongest, motive for the Democratic Party.
Which is another prefect example (and one that perfectly illustrates my point) of the republican hypocrisy: the hare "identity politics . . . until it comes to their identity, then they are all about it. _________________ "You know it seems the more we talk about it, it only makes it worse to live without it."
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 55344 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:52 am Post subject:
Wilt wrote:
Is FDR's campaign chairman still alive? He managed to get FDR elected four times!
Losing the last election doesn't mean we should automatically listen to someone that was involved in presidential campaigning 30 years ago.
Keep in mind, Carville predicted a Harris victory with a lot of confidence. He was wrong, so now we have to listen to him, the same guy who probably would have been a footnote in history if it wasn't for Ross Perot?
Which doesn't mean that he is wrong on everything, but we shouldn't just take his advice by default.
Exactly. Being correct about somethings doesn't make one right about everything. You have to look at every issue independently and address them as such. _________________ "You know it seems the more we talk about it, it only makes it worse to live without it."
The same people that think identity politics is bad also tend to say that Democrats should appeal more to white working class voters. Which would be yet another version of identity politics.
And the Republicans have been doing that successfully since 1964, which is to appeal to aggrieved, non-college white voters. Which is their right to do. But they don't call it identity politics when they explicitly appeal to white voters.
But what Carville and others want the Democrats to do is abandon historically disadvantaged groups so that more whites might vote Democrat. As kikanga said, this is a result of getting caught up in the conservative messaging and could only lead to terrible outcomes.
‘Treated like a criminal': US citizen says he was detained returning from Canada
Quote:
Atallah says CBP agents requested to look into his email on his phone, which he refused because of attorney client privilege.
"So I had to, under duress, give him permission to look through my email, through my priveleged information, and he made me write a statement, signed by me, saying that I gave him permission to look through the email," Atallah said.
After several requests, Atallah says CBP called his sister, who is an immigration attorney.
"It's not about the immigrants," Celine Atallah, Bachir's sister, told NBC10 Boston. "It's coming to us Americans, and it's going to go after all of us."
After nearly five hours, Bachir Atallah says he and his wife were released. They are now pursuing legal action.
"I really thought things would change after this administration, when we have Mr. Trump in office, things would change to the better," Atallah said. "Things actually changed to the worse."
This is alarming because this is an American citizen being detained for no good reason.
The last part is interesting. Seems to be another case of someone thinking Trump's lawless regime wouldn't affect him and his family but would affect others. And this is no stupid guy, he's a freaking attorney.
The same people that think identity politics is bad also tend to say that Democrats should appeal more to white working class voters. Which would be yet another version of identity politics.
And the Republicans have been doing that successfully since 1964, which is to appeal to aggrieved, non-college white voters. Which is their right to do. But they don't call it identity politics when they explicitly appeal to white voters.
But what Carville and others want the Democrats to do is abandon historically disadvantaged groups so that more whites might vote Democrat. As kikanga said, this is a result of getting caught up in the conservative messaging and could only lead to terrible outcomes.
I think you should have a strategy that appeals to all working to middle class voters, that is designed to lift all ships, that is fixated on providing equal opportunities for all. (How you might govern is another thing.) I thought we were striving for a color blind (and now identity blind) society? You don't need to say you are going to appeal to white voters--or black voters or LGBTQ voters for that matter. You shouldn't need to identify any, unless, of course, a group is being attacked or bullied, and then, you identify that action and try to curb it. How we, as individuals, act is another thing and we should all strive to treat most everyone (there are exceptions, yes) with dignity and respect.
Again, speaking of terrible outcomes, when you get beat by the worst president we have ever had, and by far, you had better rethink your strategy. Just saying everyone is stupid IS NOT a winning strategy. _________________ Hey Doge, ever hear of “measure twice, cut once?” It is not cut first and measure later.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 31034 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 12:07 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
Regardless of what one feels identity politics means, and to whom, a large swath of the American electorate don't seem to like it.
It seems to me that getting elected, when the alternative is what we are facing, should be a strong, if not the strongest, motive for the Democratic Party.
I want to lecture you on how the Democratic party isn't defined by "woke", "identity politics", or "DEI".
There is so much evidence I could show you. To destroy that notion.
But the fact that you, Carville, and others think the quoted things are important. Means the party can do a better job defining itself. As opposed to letting the GOP define our party. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
I think you should have a strategy that appeals to all working to middle class voters, that is designed to lift all ships, that is fixated on providing equal opportunities for all. (How you might govern is another thing.) I thought we were striving for a color blind (and now identity blind) society? You don't need to say you are going to appeal to white voters--or black voters or LGBTQ voters for that matter. You shouldn't need to identify any, unless, of course, a group is being attacked or bullied, and then, you identify that action and try to curb it. How we, as individuals, act is another thing and we should all strive to treat most everyone (there are exceptions, yes) with dignity and respect.
The bolded is why we have a Democratic Party. If the Dems don't support those historically disadvantaged groups that are still oppressed in various ways, no one will. And when no one talks about them, no one will help them.
If you want to call that "identity politics," then so be it.
The Democrats proposed policies that would help all Americans, from all racial, cultural, and economic backgrounds. It's unfortunate that people keep voting against their interests.
Quote:
Again, speaking of terrible outcomes, when you get beat by the worst president we have ever had, and by far, you had better rethink your strategy. Just saying everyone is stupid IS NOT a winning strategy.
No one is saying that the strategy was perfect. But it doesn't mean we should automatically listen to Mr. Skeletor as some source of great wisdom, who advised Bill Clinton to 43% of the vote. The same guy who predicted a Harris victory, by the way. He may be right about certain things, but if the Democratic Party becomes an imitation of the Republican Party, it will lose by even bigger margins.
As kikanga said, a better strategy is to convince non-voters to vote, especially young people. Becoming GOP Lite is not the answer.
Well, you gotta admit, this old world guy managed to his guy elected (a southerner ta boot and twice), and the new world approach the last time around, failed.
He sure did . . . in a whole different political climate than we face now.
And there was nothing "new world" about this last campaign; THAT was the problem.
Quote:
I'll take him over the Biden team any day!
Huh? Biden didn't run in this last election. And when he did run, Biden won.
Quote:
Regardless of what one feels identity politics means, and to whom, a large swath of the American electorate don't seem to like it.
It seems to me that getting elected, when the alternative is what we are facing, should be a strong, if not the strongest, motive for the Democratic Party.
Which is another prefect example (and one that perfectly illustrates my point) of the republican hypocrisy: the hare "identity politics . . . until it comes to their identity, then they are all about it.
I will agree that the climate has changed since Clinton, though I'm unsure it the strategy to win has. I will not agree that the climate changed from Trump's first election to his third*. He has been scum from day one. He lost the popular vote twice and then won both the popular vote and electoral vote. You seem to have forgotten that the Biden team was in power for four years, and was running the last election cycle up until the last 3 months, and that some were also on Kamala's team.
And I don't believe the people, at least a sizeable number, like identity politics from either side.
*The only change was that Trump and his entire party got worse, but oddly you provide no information why the worse he got the more votes he got, except that there was nothing new world, whatever that means. _________________ Hey Doge, ever hear of “measure twice, cut once?” It is not cut first and measure later.
^
When winning vs losing depends on irrational, uninformed people, becoming worse doesn't necessarily mean that you will lose future elections.
That's what "independents" do. They will vote for Trump in one election, vote for Biden in another election, and then for Trump again, even after Trump tried to overturn the government illegally.
I don't blame Biden or Harris for that. I blame the voters.
As kikanga said, a better strategy is to convince non-voters to vote, especially young people. Becoming GOP Lite is not the answer.
That's all you gotta do. The last two elections, the voter eligible population was 65.3% and 63.95%, the two highest ever. It wasn't just that Biden got ~ 6M less votes but that Trump got ~3M more. Same guys, something different.
And as for that last sentence... I'll be gentle and just say that's a quite a doozy. This resembles a number of fallacies from false equivalence, to non sequitur to straw man. _________________ Hey Doge, ever hear of “measure twice, cut once?” It is not cut first and measure later.
^
When winning vs losing depends on irrational, uninformed people, becoming worse doesn't necessarily mean that you will lose future elections.
That's what "independents" do. They will vote for Trump in one election, vote for Biden in another election, and then for Trump again, even after Trump tried to overturn the government illegally.
I don't blame Biden or Harris for that. I blame the voters.
So that's your answer.
In other words, the voters are stupid? _________________ Hey Doge, ever hear of “measure twice, cut once?” It is not cut first and measure later.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 31034 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 1:36 pm Post subject:
ribeye wrote:
Wilt wrote:
As kikanga said, a better strategy is to convince non-voters to vote, especially young people. Becoming GOP Lite is not the answer.
That's all you gotta do. The last two elections, the voter eligible population was 65.3% and 63.95%, the two highest ever. It wasn't just that Biden got ~ 6M less votes but that Trump got ~3M more. Same guys, something different.
And as for that last sentence... I'll be gentle and just say that's a quite a doozy. This resembles a number of fallacies from false equivalence, to non sequitur to straw man.
I can't find any evidence "identity politics" swung the election.
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