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MJST
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Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 30321
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 Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Kblo247! wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Best defender we put on Antman. And the one wing that didn't need a double team to defend him. DFS and Rui both did, he didn't.
JJ never utilizing him in that 2nd half when he ran that one unit the entire game to give any wings a second of rest was a really dumb idea.
Vando's defense is enough of a difference maker, him being a slasher and occasional corner three hitter is fine. Especially as he's always out there doing the little things as well as the rebounding and the assists and you see the difference he makes and he can stick with the perimeter threats like Ant.
Someone like DFS can't. So he needs to be more of a scorer. DFS's lateral movement ain't what it used to be and he needs a double whenever he defends a shifty guard, which then leaves open a three point shooter and we get killed by that. And if it switches off to Rui.. same thing happens because his lateral movement also sucks whether he gives effort or not.
Because Vando has those intangibles defensively and can stick with 4 of 5 positions and still pester the 5th, he has value defensively than neither DFS nor Vincent have, so THEY have to compensate their worth by bringing consistent shooting and scoring to make up for that. They do not. Which is why Vando is more valuable. Vando plays defense, he can rebound, he can pass, he hustles 100% all the time.
DFS can defend unless its an athletic shifty wing and is inconsistent as a shooter and nowhere near aggressive enough as wide open as he is, Gabe .... fools gold.
So of those three, you keep Vando, and you seek to move Vincent and DFS. |
Where in this equation is Vando is afraid of contact and doesn’t finish in the dunker spot, Vando can’t roll so he gets guys trapped, Vando can’t shooot so he gets you zoned, Vando also is injury prone as hell so he will most a lot of games
I agree he can be useful on defense and I hope he is healthy. But Vando is in a spot he needs to figure out what he is too as a player. If it’s a dunker spot player setting picks he’s got to be able to finish layups and dunks with contact and inside. He has the same length, height, and wing span as Bron and Rui but is so scared of contact. If he’s a wing he needs to work on catch and shooting over and over again. But he can’t be an offensive player that does neither and makes it possible to play 4 on 5.
I mean here’s his breakdown
0-3 feet 67.2% (55% of his attempts)
3-10 feet 23.8% (18% of his attempts)
10-16 feet 0% (did not hit one all year)
13 - 3pt line 0% (did not attempt all year)
3pt line 28.1% (26% of his attempts)
He’s got to be useful at something or him setting a pick for you is getting you trapped |
Vando is fine when he's out there with other offensive players and he's in his role. He already showed that to us when he got back and showed what a difference he makes. He's the actual maintenance man that fans give credit to other guys for when they get a rebound or something.
The truth of the matter is though, the Lakers don't need multiple defenders that don't have consistent offense on their team.
When it comes to them we have
Goodwin, Vincent, Vando, DFS
Vando I prioritize over all of them.
If you unloaded all of them but Vando, for some offensive, or two-way talent then it's very beneficial to have Vando on the roster as that glue/maintenance guy, especially as I liked what I saw when he was in the passer spot on SOME plays. But it's clear Vando is capable of doing other things, and he's our best wing/perimeter defender. So he's more valuable than the other 3.
If the Lakers were to get like a Gary Trent Jr in the off-season with their cap space. That shores up some of their bench scoring and you get rid of Gabe with the quickness, if they got NaW depending on if LeBron takes any kind of paycut, you can get rid of DFS. But it all depends on who the Lakers get.
But one thing is for certain. They cannot trot out 3-4 defense only/no consistent offense guys anymore. Vando's the best of those 4. But we can't be throwing 2-3 of them in lineups together. Now if instead of DFS it was NaW and instead of Gabe it was Gary Trent? Then yeah you got something there.
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Kblo247!
Star Player
Joined: 05 Oct 2015
Posts: 6054
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Kblo247! wrote: | | MJST wrote: | Best defender we put on Antman. And the one wing that didn't need a double team to defend him. DFS and Rui both did, he didn't.
JJ never utilizing him in that 2nd half when he ran that one unit the entire game to give any wings a second of rest was a really dumb idea.
Vando's defense is enough of a difference maker, him being a slasher and occasional corner three hitter is fine. Especially as he's always out there doing the little things as well as the rebounding and the assists and you see the difference he makes and he can stick with the perimeter threats like Ant.
Someone like DFS can't. So he needs to be more of a scorer. DFS's lateral movement ain't what it used to be and he needs a double whenever he defends a shifty guard, which then leaves open a three point shooter and we get killed by that. And if it switches off to Rui.. same thing happens because his lateral movement also sucks whether he gives effort or not.
Because Vando has those intangibles defensively and can stick with 4 of 5 positions and still pester the 5th, he has value defensively than neither DFS nor Vincent have, so THEY have to compensate their worth by bringing consistent shooting and scoring to make up for that. They do not. Which is why Vando is more valuable. Vando plays defense, he can rebound, he can pass, he hustles 100% all the time.
DFS can defend unless its an athletic shifty wing and is inconsistent as a shooter and nowhere near aggressive enough as wide open as he is, Gabe .... fools gold.
So of those three, you keep Vando, and you seek to move Vincent and DFS. |
Where in this equation is Vando is afraid of contact and doesn’t finish in the dunker spot, Vando can’t roll so he gets guys trapped, Vando can’t shooot so he gets you zoned, Vando also is injury prone as hell so he will most a lot of games
I agree he can be useful on defense and I hope he is healthy. But Vando is in a spot he needs to figure out what he is too as a player. If it’s a dunker spot player setting picks he’s got to be able to finish layups and dunks with contact and inside. He has the same length, height, and wing span as Bron and Rui but is so scared of contact. If he’s a wing he needs to work on catch and shooting over and over again. But he can’t be an offensive player that does neither and makes it possible to play 4 on 5.
I mean here’s his breakdown
0-3 feet 67.2% (55% of his attempts)
3-10 feet 23.8% (18% of his attempts)
10-16 feet 0% (did not hit one all year)
13 - 3pt line 0% (did not attempt all year)
3pt line 28.1% (26% of his attempts)
He’s got to be useful at something or him setting a pick for you is getting you trapped |
Vando is fine when he's out there with other offensive players and he's in his role. He already showed that to us when he got back and showed what a difference he makes. He's the actual maintenance man that fans give credit to other guys for when they get a rebound or something.
The truth of the matter is though, the Lakers don't need multiple defenders that don't have consistent offense on their team.
When it comes to them we have
Goodwin, Vincent, Vando, DFS
Vando I prioritize over all of them.
If you unloaded all of them but Vando, for some offensive, or two-way talent then it's very beneficial to have Vando on the roster as that glue/maintenance guy, especially as I liked what I saw when he was in the passer spot on SOME plays. But it's clear Vando is capable of doing other things, and he's our best wing/perimeter defender. So he's more valuable than the other 3.
If the Lakers were to get like a Gary Trent Jr in the off-season with their cap space. That shores up some of their bench scoring and you get rid of Gabe with the quickness, if they got NaW depending on if LeBron takes any kind of paycut, you can get rid of DFS. But it all depends on who the Lakers get.
But one thing is for certain. They cannot trot out 3-4 defense only/no consistent offense guys anymore. Vando's the best of those 4. But we can't be throwing 2-3 of them in lineups together. Now if instead of DFS it was NaW and instead of Gabe it was Gary Trent? Then yeah you got something there. |
Toss up for me with dfs and Vando because of Vandos health. I would prefer to keep both.
I would be more than fine with turning Gabe and Kleiber and a second into Vucevic for the scoring and rebounding we lacked at time because it addresses a lot of (bleep).
I would want Dalton to develop here. I would want Adams as a backup big over Hayes. I would try to get the world traveled Dennis again for the defense and penetration.
Vucevic/Adams
Rui/DFS
Bron/Vando
Reaves/Dalton
Luka/Denis
I think that’s better and more balanced |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 21041
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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I think people continue to understate how bad he is at offense and overstate how good he is at defense. Yes he's a very good perimeter isolation defender but in a PnR heavy league this isn't actually that useful of a skillset, and he's not actually that good at navigating ball screens. And that assumes we construct a roster that lets us do defensive schemes that aren't just switch everything which makes Vando even less impactful on defense.
I actually think defensively his ability to get boards, be a backline defender, and read passing lanes has higher impact than his ability to guard Edwards on an iso on the rare occasion they don't just screen him off.
Offensively he is just that bad. He has to be the main PnR partner for Luka (or whoever) since otherwise he just destroys the team spacing.
The only thing that I'd remotely be excited about for him offensively is this is his first offseason with LA where he can work on his skills instead of rehab an injury. If he had an Aaron Gordon like growth in his jumpshot (which would probably make him a league average 35% shooter because his baseline is lower than Gordon's in the past) then this is a different convo |
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LakersMD
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8278
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | I think people continue to understate how bad he is at offense and overstate how good he is at defense. Yes he's a very good perimeter isolation defender but in a PnR heavy league this isn't actually that useful of a skillset, and he's not actually that good at navigating ball screens. And that assumes we construct a roster that lets us do defensive schemes that aren't just switch everything which makes Vando even less impactful on defense.
I actually think defensively his ability to get boards, be a backline defender, and read passing lanes has higher impact than his ability to guard Edwards on an iso on the rare occasion they don't just screen him off.
Offensively he is just that bad. He has to be the main PnR partner for Luka (or whoever) since otherwise he just destroys the team spacing.
The only thing that I'd remotely be excited about for him offensively is this is his first offseason with LA where he can work on his skills instead of rehab an injury. If he had an Aaron Gordon like growth in his jumpshot (which would probably make him a league average 35% shooter because his baseline is lower than Gordon's in the past) then this is a different convo |
His mechanics are such that he’ll never be an adequate 3 point shooter. I’d settle for him improving his horrendous finishing around the rim so he can maybe play in the short roll / dunker spot, but he also has terrible hands so I don’t know whether he’ll ever find a stable offensive role. |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 18377
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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He has to go.
Vando has been a net negative in his Lakers tenure. He makes too much $$$ to be a negative contributor.
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 21041
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| LakersMD wrote: | | tox wrote: | I think people continue to understate how bad he is at offense and overstate how good he is at defense. Yes he's a very good perimeter isolation defender but in a PnR heavy league this isn't actually that useful of a skillset, and he's not actually that good at navigating ball screens. And that assumes we construct a roster that lets us do defensive schemes that aren't just switch everything which makes Vando even less impactful on defense.
I actually think defensively his ability to get boards, be a backline defender, and read passing lanes has higher impact than his ability to guard Edwards on an iso on the rare occasion they don't just screen him off.
Offensively he is just that bad. He has to be the main PnR partner for Luka (or whoever) since otherwise he just destroys the team spacing.
The only thing that I'd remotely be excited about for him offensively is this is his first offseason with LA where he can work on his skills instead of rehab an injury. If he had an Aaron Gordon like growth in his jumpshot (which would probably make him a league average 35% shooter because his baseline is lower than Gordon's in the past) then this is a different convo |
His mechanics are such that he’ll never be an adequate 3 point shooter. I’d settle for him improving his horrendous finishing around the rim so he can maybe play in the short roll / dunker spot, but he also has terrible hands so I don’t know whether he’ll ever find a stable offensive role. |
I agree his form is bad but I dunno enough about shooting, I've seen a lot of players with weird forms become passable 3 point shooters. I can see an argument about him working on his floater/ layup package but is that really something he can improve? |
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fansincemagic
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 11794
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | He has to go.
Vando has been a net negative in his Lakers tenure. He makes too much $$$ to be a negative contributor. |
They're probably stuck with him through 27/28 since it probably costs a 1st to dump that deal. Maybe you get lucky with the right expiring deal in trade. You're trying to win now and keep Luka but that 12M being moved in a year goes a long way towards a Luka/Giannis/AR core in a year. Still need to land a one year center though with the ntpMLE or DK and expirings. |
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LakersMD
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 8278
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | LakersMD wrote: | | tox wrote: | I think people continue to understate how bad he is at offense and overstate how good he is at defense. Yes he's a very good perimeter isolation defender but in a PnR heavy league this isn't actually that useful of a skillset, and he's not actually that good at navigating ball screens. And that assumes we construct a roster that lets us do defensive schemes that aren't just switch everything which makes Vando even less impactful on defense.
I actually think defensively his ability to get boards, be a backline defender, and read passing lanes has higher impact than his ability to guard Edwards on an iso on the rare occasion they don't just screen him off.
Offensively he is just that bad. He has to be the main PnR partner for Luka (or whoever) since otherwise he just destroys the team spacing.
The only thing that I'd remotely be excited about for him offensively is this is his first offseason with LA where he can work on his skills instead of rehab an injury. If he had an Aaron Gordon like growth in his jumpshot (which would probably make him a league average 35% shooter because his baseline is lower than Gordon's in the past) then this is a different convo |
His mechanics are such that he’ll never be an adequate 3 point shooter. I’d settle for him improving his horrendous finishing around the rim so he can maybe play in the short roll / dunker spot, but he also has terrible hands so I don’t know whether he’ll ever find a stable offensive role. |
I agree his form is bad but I dunno enough about shooting, I've seen a lot of players with weird forms become passable 3 point shooters. I can see an argument about him working on his floater/ layup package but is that really something he can improve? |
I don’t know. At this point at age 26 I don’t expect him to make a significant leap offensively. Unfortunately he’s dead money for three more years. |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 30321
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Vando is the one player on the team I don't really need to become an offensive threat because defensively he is far too valuable and he does the other little things that matter in terms of the rebounding the hustling and is capable of being in the passer spot or the rebounding spot and can actually hang on the perimeter defending perimeter players while being a pest at 4 of the 5 positions.
What we can't do is have 3 other players for essentially the same thing or lesser versions of the same thing.
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 24941
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Why is there activity in this thread... is there a rumor of Vando for the Mavs' #1 pick? I'd only do it if Max is included.
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"The game is MORE than just one player. Without Luka, DFS would have been more than enough to replace him based on what we've seen," LakersFever714, the greatest casual of all time. |
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