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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
Just based on the ability to play the game is it prime Lebron or prime Wilt? Having watched both I know who I would pick.
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levon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
Just based on the ability to play the game is it prime Lebron or prime Wilt? Having watched both I know who I would pick. |
Haven't watched Wilt so I'd defer to you on that, but I value breadth of skills a lot. LeBron's checked every box, whereas Wilt through no fault of his own was an extremely dominant center, but that's it. LeBron's lived multiple basketball lives. |
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Snipes
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Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| miggz23 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
Call him a mercenary or whatever, but Lebron winning 3 titles and 3 FMVP's for 3 different teams should account for something. He won most those titles with in 2 years after signing.
Besides longevity, he also hold many records as the First ever to have only done it. |
Count for something? A bunch of people and the media has him as the GOAT for it. Lebron has everything accounted for x10, nobody is ever short changing his resume. The problem is his accomplishments are overstated because he’s ESPNs baby. |
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miggz23
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| Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2024 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Snipes wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
Call him a mercenary or whatever, but Lebron winning 3 titles and 3 FMVP's for 3 different teams should account for something. He won most those titles with in 2 years after signing.
Besides longevity, he also hold many records as the First ever to have only done it. |
Count for something? A bunch of people and the media has him as the GOAT for it. Lebron has everything accounted for x10, nobody is ever short changing his resume. The problem is his accomplishments are overstated because he’s ESPNs baby. |
Which of his accomplishments do you think are overstated?
I don't really watch some of the shows. But I see some of those guys go both ways. But most of them flip flop their takes unless you're skip bayless. |
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Halflife
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Joined: 15 Aug 2015
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| miggz23 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
Call him a mercenary or whatever, but Lebron winning 3 titles and 3 FMVP's for 3 different teams should account for something. He won most those titles with in 2 years after signing.
Besides longevity, he also hold many records as the First ever to have only done it. |
Longevity = records
3 titles for 3 different teams doesn’t mean much when he jumped to a ream a few years removed from ring and brought an all star with him. Most say that team underachieved. The bubble title is never referenced as just a title. Recently Keyshawn a huge lakers fan said “even though it was only a bubble title” when referencing ad/bron v Pg/ Kawai. So that title counts but it’s caveated like no other. His greatest title and one for the ages was his 1 in cavs.
Bron controls his narrative but if you grew up in it that’s your view. 3* out of 10 is laughable if you want to hold that crown.
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Dominic1981
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | LeBron's a better basketball player than Jordan was, and the best to have ever played so far. One day, someone will surpass him. "Greatest" talk is all about aesthetics and favoritism. Best: LeBron, and I'm not sure it's that compelling a competition anymore. He started off playing shooting guard, became a point forward, won his last title as a point guard leading the league in assists, was an elite defender in his prime, a neutral impact defender in his 21st season, and can even play 5 now in the post shile shooting 40% from 3 on high volume. He's literally done everything as a basketball player. It's over. |
MJ at his peak was better. Best combined offensive player and defensive player ever. MJ’s shot creation was far far far better than Lebron, and his on ball defense far better.
Lebron the greatest player over 35 years old. But at their peaks MJ was better.
Lebron to me is like Magic but give Magic elite athleticism. But if I need to get a basket, I’m giving it to Michael. And if I need to stop the other guy from scoring, I’m putting Michael on him
I think MJ is getting less praise nowadays bc of all the 3s shot now and the easy scoring, but in his day he’s dealing with hand checks and still doing whatever he wants. |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Look at Chubby MJ in his Washington days. Not even close to what Lebron is doing right now at 40 still leading a team to contend for a championship. LeGoat!!
Let's face it, guys. If Lebron didn't leave Miami, he would have at least tied MJ for 6 rings by now. It's not always about the rings. Just like how KD would have won more rings had he stayed with the Warriors. It's about the "journey".
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 9:16 am Post subject: |
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He has been amazing in the Olympics, talk about leading by example.
That soaring reverse layup he made late in the Serbia game was sensational and he is also rebounding, passing and playing D at an A+ level.
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Now, let’s revisit that LeBron vs Tatum debate lol!
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miggz23
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Now, let’s revisit that LeBron vs Tatum debate lol! |
What debate? |
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Hanging from Rafters
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| miggz23 wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Now, let’s revisit that LeBron vs Tatum debate lol! |
What debate? |
Discussing a trade a few threads back I had:
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LBJ > Tatum
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Someone disagreed with me saying that Tatum was >. There were a few exchanges before we agreed to disagree. I’m submitting the Olympics as exhibit A for evidence in the retrial since that last case was a hung jury lol!
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.”
Last edited by Hanging from Rafters on Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:14 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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mad55557777
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| miggz23 wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Now, let’s revisit that LeBron vs Tatum debate lol! |
What debate? |
Lebron is a first class basketball player, first class husband, first class dad, first class citizen, first class human being. Hating on him is hard |
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levon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mad55557777 wrote: | | miggz23 wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Now, let’s revisit that LeBron vs Tatum debate lol! |
What debate? |
Lebron is a first class basketball player, first class husband, first class dad, first class citizen, first class human being. Hating on him is hard |
He had a bratty hype event and flopped in a game in 2012 though |
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Theseus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
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MJST
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Theseus wrote: | | Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
Whats your parameters?
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Theseus
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
Whats your parameters? |
Consistent excellence. Success as a focal point of a team. Comparing teams played with versus teams played against (which of course includes coaching). Play on both sides of the court. Leadership, which is probably the most difficult to quantify but not too difficult to argue for Lebron's favor. We can talk about individual ability to play basketball but that gets into weird areas. |
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BandwagonLBJhopper
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like he won Olympic MVP
Pretty amazing when you consider he is 40 |
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Dominic1981
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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The Lebron Stans are always loudest in the off-season. His run with the Lakers has been underwhelming to say the least and only 1 title in all his years in Cleveland is also evidence he’s not the greatest.
Reminds me of Novak Djokovic fans claiming that because you stick around long enough, you are the greatest. Nah. At Novak’s peak, 2 other guys were clearly better. And at Lebron’s peak, there’s several others better.
Greatness is subjective obviously. But I look at it like a beauty pageant. There’s a reason 18-25 year old women are winning them, and no one over 30 is even considered. It’s how great you were, at your greatest. That’s MJ followed by Wilt. All others are a level below |
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lakersfever714
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominic1981 wrote: | The Lebron Stans are always loudest in the off-season. His run with the Lakers has been underwhelming to say the least and only 1 title in all his years in Cleveland is also evidence he’s not the greatest.
Reminds me of Novak Djokovic fans claiming that because you stick around long enough, you are the greatest. Nah. At Novak’s peak, 2 other guys were clearly better. And at Lebron’s peak, there’s several others better.
Greatness is subjective obviously. But I look at it like a beauty pageant. There’s a reason 18-25 year old women are winning them, and no one over 30 is even considered. It’s how great you were, at your greatest. That’s MJ followed by Wilt. All others are a level below |
Why is his run with the Lakers underwhelming? He won the championship for the Lakers team that had a 20.7% winrate (17-65) 4 years earlier at the old age of 35!!! Then Pelinka tore up the championship team the very next season and so the Lakers couldn't repeat. Lebron also got "hill'd" the following season.
If Lebron and AD was healthy in 2021, then we could have repeated.
In 2023 and 2024, we had Bron and AD healthy so if DLo didn't choke in the playoffs, then we could have won more championships.
Bottom line is there's so many things going into winning a championship such as health and luck. MJ and Pippen were very healthy for most of their championship runs and they also have a competent supporting cast and a legendary headcoach.
If you're going to measure greatness with championships won then Bill Russell, who had won 11 championships, would be the GOAT then.
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1995Lakers
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Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 4902
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominic1981 wrote: | The Lebron Stans are always loudest in the off-season. His run with the Lakers has been underwhelming to say the least and only 1 title in all his years in Cleveland is also evidence he’s not the greatest.
Reminds me of Novak Djokovic fans claiming that because you stick around long enough, you are the greatest. Nah. At Novak’s peak, 2 other guys were clearly better. And at Lebron’s peak, there’s several others better.
Greatness is subjective obviously. But I look at it like a beauty pageant. There’s a reason 18-25 year old women are winning them, and no one over 30 is even considered. It’s how great you were, at your greatest. That’s MJ followed by Wilt. All others are a level below |
Im a Federer fan who always rooted for him against Nadal and Djokovic.....no way in hell was he better than Djokovic. Federer in 2014 and 2015 Wimbledon played at close to damn near his peak level with even more motivation/momentum to win than Djokovic both years. Federer was peaking at the right time both times he met Novak those years with his semifinals vs Murray arguably being his most complete match ever. Both matches vs Djokovic, he was the lesser player and especially in 2014, he threw everything and the kitchen sink at Djokovic. Djokovic throughout the course of that match, you could tell was slightly better. In fact, it was these two matches that told me in my gut who was better between Roger and Novak. Roger just didnt have the power to hit through and bully peak Novak to counter his own weakness in rallies with Novak with the backhand. |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Theseus wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
Whats your parameters? |
Consistent excellence. Success as a focal point of a team. Comparing teams played with versus teams played against (which of course includes coaching). Play on both sides of the court. Leadership, which is probably the most difficult to quantify but not too difficult to argue for Lebron's favor. We can talk about individual ability to play basketball but that gets into weird areas. |
A veil has been lifted as a ground breaking threshold has been breeched.
The current and consistent exceptional quality of play over the years now means…imo…that the longevity of Lebron’s career can no longer be used as a factor to argue against the GOAT status. In fact, not only has the length of time become an accolade for Lebron, the 2 year hiatus and much shorter length of his career now stands as a detriment against MJ’s status for GOAT comparatively since the time and continually just doesn’t measure up.
I still say MJ was the best for a period of time. But the acronym has an “A” in it that stand for “All”. That now…Greatest of ALL time…is Lebron James. That realization is likely gonna cause a bigger divide in the USA society than a certain upcoming political event lol!
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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1995Lakers
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Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 4902
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
Whats your parameters? |
Consistent excellence. Success as a focal point of a team. Comparing teams played with versus teams played against (which of course includes coaching). Play on both sides of the court. Leadership, which is probably the most difficult to quantify but not too difficult to argue for Lebron's favor. We can talk about individual ability to play basketball but that gets into weird areas. |
A veil has been lifted as a ground breaking threshold has been breeched.
The current and consistent exceptional quality of play over the years now means…imo…that the longevity of Lebron’s career can no longer be used as a factor to argue against the GOAT status. In fact, not only has the length of time become an accolade for Lebron, the 2 year hiatus and much shorter length of his career now stands as a detriment against MJ’s status for GOAT comparatively since the time and continually just doesn’t measure up.
I still say MJ was the best for a period of time. But the acronym has an “A” in it that stand for “All”. That now…Greatest of ALL time…is Lebron James. That realization is likely gonna cause a bigger divide in the USA society than a certain upcoming political event lol! |
Had Mike stayed those two years, it would be very interesting to see how it would have played out. Lets not forget how dangerously close to Game 7 the Bulls were against Phoenix in 1993 and Game 7 would have been played in Phoenix - still would have given the advantage to the Bulls but still.
The 1994 and 1995 Rockets would have been their hardest test amongst any of the finals opponents they faced off. A veteran team who matched up well with them with just as much (and likely even more) clutch and mentally tough players than Chicago (Olajuwon, Thorpe, Horry, Elie, Maxwell and Cassell all big moments/clutch players) who would have absolutely owned the paint in a matchup with Chicago (the interior defense of Olajuwon, Thorpe and Horry) to essentially negate the inside presence of Horace Grant. Olajuwon is the only alpha player Jordan would have faced in the finals that was 1. not intimidated by him 2. would have matched his production and impact on the game. Had the Bulls lost in 1994, Horace Grant is leaving Chicago and the 1994/1995 season would have played out exactly as it did in real life with Jordan's "rust" replaced with his "tiredness" from playing in June for so long with the same issue of Chicago being bullied inside by the Magic and Horace Grant destroying Chicago with mid range jumpers when Phil Jackson left him open. Had Chicago won in 1994, then Chicago makes the finals in 1995 with Horace Grant staying and a rematch with Houston with Drexler instead of Thorpe and the Rockets playing at an even higher level than they did the year before with Olajuwon and Drexler supremely motivated. I think 1994 is a 60-40 situation for the Bulls but 1995 is 60-40 advantage for the Rockets had the Bulls faced them then. |
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Japago
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Joined: 21 Jun 2018
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Dominic1981 wrote: | The Lebron Stans are always loudest in the off-season. His run with the Lakers has been underwhelming to say the least and only 1 title in all his years in Cleveland is also evidence he’s not the greatest.
Reminds me of Novak Djokovic fans claiming that because you stick around long enough, you are the greatest. Nah. At Novak’s peak, 2 other guys were clearly better. And at Lebron’s peak, there’s several others better.
Greatness is subjective obviously. But I look at it like a beauty pageant. There’s a reason 18-25 year old women are winning them, and no one over 30 is even considered. It’s how great you were, at your greatest. That’s MJ followed by Wilt. All others are a level below |
Why is his run with the Lakers underwhelming? He won the championship for the Lakers team that had a 20.7% winrate (17-65) 4 years earlier at the old age of 35!!! Then Pelinka tore up the championship team the very next season and so the Lakers couldn't repeat. Lebron also got "hill'd" the following season.
If Lebron and AD was healthy in 2021, then we could have repeated.
In 2023 and 2024, we had Bron and AD healthy so if DLo didn't choke in the playoffs, then we could have won more championships.
Bottom line is there's so many things going into winning a championship such as health and luck. MJ and Pippen were very healthy for most of their championship runs and they also have a competent supporting cast and a legendary headcoach.
If you're going to measure greatness with championships won then Bill Russell, who had won 11 championships, would be the GOAT then. |
Yeah, context matters. LeBron didn't get to enjoy the great front offices and rosters some other stars have.
He had to leave CLE just to get a better co-star than Mo Williams.
The Heat were dealing with a clearly declining Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh before he left.
Kyrie forced his way out and K-Love was declining before he left CLE the 2nd time. The next 2 biggest stars of his generation teamed up alongside 2 high-level all-stars.
LeBron has had to deal with a lot of mess since coming to LA, as he's starting to decline.
I don't think any other star could've done better than him under those circumstances. |
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Hanging from Rafters
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Joined: 31 Jul 2018
Posts: 5198
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | Theseus wrote: | | Easily the GOAT. This is the hill I will die on |
Whats your parameters? |
Consistent excellence. Success as a focal point of a team. Comparing teams played with versus teams played against (which of course includes coaching). Play on both sides of the court. Leadership, which is probably the most difficult to quantify but not too difficult to argue for Lebron's favor. We can talk about individual ability to play basketball but that gets into weird areas. |
A veil has been lifted as a ground breaking threshold has been breeched.
The current and consistent exceptional quality of play over the years now means…imo…that the longevity of Lebron’s career can no longer be used as a factor to argue against the GOAT status. In fact, not only has the length of time become an accolade for Lebron, the 2 year hiatus and much shorter length of his career now stands as a detriment against MJ’s status for GOAT comparatively since the time and continually just doesn’t measure up.
I still say MJ was the best for a period of time. But the acronym has an “A” in it that stand for “All”. That now…Greatest of ALL time…is Lebron James. That realization is likely gonna cause a bigger divide in the USA society than a certain upcoming political event lol! |
Had Mike stayed those two years, it would be very interesting to see how it would have played out. Lets not forget how dangerously close to Game 7 the Bulls were against Phoenix in 1993 and Game 7 would have been played in Phoenix - still would have given the advantage to the Bulls but still.
The 1994 and 1995 Rockets would have been their hardest test amongst any of the finals opponents they faced off. A veteran team who matched up well with them with just as much (and likely even more) clutch and mentally tough players than Chicago (Olajuwon, Thorpe, Horry, Elie, Maxwell and Cassell all big moments/clutch players) who would have absolutely owned the paint in a matchup with Chicago (the interior defense of Olajuwon, Thorpe and Horry) to essentially negate the inside presence of Horace Grant. Olajuwon is the only alpha player Jordan would have faced in the finals that was 1. not intimidated by him 2. would have matched his production and impact on the game. Had the Bulls lost in 1994, Horace Grant is leaving Chicago and the 1994/1995 season would have played out exactly as it did in real life with Jordan's "rust" replaced with his "tiredness" from playing in June for so long with the same issue of Chicago being bullied inside by the Magic and Horace Grant destroying Chicago with mid range jumpers when Phil Jackson left him open. Had Chicago won in 1994, then Chicago makes the finals in 1995 with Horace Grant staying and a rematch with Houston with Drexler instead of Thorpe and the Rockets playing at an even higher level than they did the year before with Olajuwon and Drexler supremely motivated. I think 1994 is a 60-40 situation for the Bulls but 1995 is 60-40 advantage for the Rockets had the Bulls faced them then. |
That’s “what if” thread material lol! Tho I agree with the assessment. It would have been interesting.
However, “What is” forms the focus of the GOAT debates and I’ve now switched parties. MJ was the greatest player for a time, that run of 6 titles in 8 years was phenomenal, but Lebron’s run over 20 years now eclipses anything else considering all time.
There could be a greatest for a minute, a quarter, a season, our very own Kobe (RIP Mamba, you are missed bro) probably has the greatest for a game. MJ has the status of greatest for a period of time. The Greatest of All Time title now tho…not what if…belongs to Lebron James imo.
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“When it looks as if it is a realistic possibility, I want to focus on winning a ship like it’s a goal that can’t be denied. I didn’t see that this off season.” |
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Dominic1981
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Joined: 09 Feb 2022
Posts: 1421
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2024 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Dominic1981 wrote: | The Lebron Stans are always loudest in the off-season. His run with the Lakers has been underwhelming to say the least and only 1 title in all his years in Cleveland is also evidence he’s not the greatest.
Reminds me of Novak Djokovic fans claiming that because you stick around long enough, you are the greatest. Nah. At Novak’s peak, 2 other guys were clearly better. And at Lebron’s peak, there’s several others better.
Greatness is subjective obviously. But I look at it like a beauty pageant. There’s a reason 18-25 year old women are winning them, and no one over 30 is even considered. It’s how great you were, at your greatest. That’s MJ followed by Wilt. All others are a level below |
Why is his run with the Lakers underwhelming? |
I don’t value the bubble title. Means nothing to me. I do value it as an elite season tho. So that’s 1 elite season out of 6. That ain’t good enough for me. I have much higher standards than that.
37-45
52-19
42-30
33-49
43-39
47-35
Thats a whole lot of meh. |
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