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LongBeachPoly
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 Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | I think its similar to how many people considered Jordan the GOAT after his three-peat beating Phoenix in 1993 even though he had only won 3 at the time whereas Magic had still won 5 and Kareem 6. You just know it in your gut who the better player is by watching them and you realize who has the fundamental advantage.
To me there are 2 consistent reasons why Federer could not beat Djokovic after 2012 but really Djokovic had surpassed Fed by 2011. 1. The tennis skill aspect: Djokovic's backhand down the line to Federer's forehand as Fed tries desperately to reach/lunge for the ball was always a problem as well as Fed's backhand holding up in a prolonged rally. But this in itself is not enough for why Fed could not beat Nole. 2. The true difference why one handed backhand and inferior player Wawinka could at times trouble and beat even prime Djokovic whereas Fed could not: Fed's lack of power to bully Djokovic and really move him around the court and control the point consistently. If Fed had either of these two things against Nole, Federer would still be the GOAT. |
I can understand saying Djokovic was on his way to being the GOAT. But to say it’s a done deal at 7 grand slams?
That’s like saying if Djokovic retired right then and there, he would be the GOAT already.
He went on to win 17 more grand slams but the debate was settled at 7? |
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ChickenStu
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | snakepit wrote: | I am not the biggest Djokovic fan but you can't deny his accomplishments.
| Quote: | | The Golden Slam has only been won previously by Germany's Steffi Graf (1988), the United States' Andre Agassi (1999), Spain's Rafael Nadal (2010) and the United States' Serena Williams (2012). |
I will be shocked if Alcaraz doesn't join the club by the end of his career. |
Seems that way, but when you break it down, it wouldn’t be that shocking.
He’s 21 right now, so I’d say he has 3 great chances left to win?
| Quote: | Age 25
Age 29
Age 33
Age 37 |
Djokovic is age 37 right now. I don’t think you’d expect a 37 yr old to win a gold medal.
So Alcaraz has 3 realistic chances left.
Would it be shocking to see him going 0 for 3?
When you factor in injuries and future players stepping up, not to me. |
And there's much more variance in best-of-3. It's why you see most of the top seeds always advancing deep into the slams. It's just really difficult to beat the top players in best-of-5. Best-of-3 such a difference. It almost takes the fatigue factor out of the equation. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2024 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Pretty stunning. What an achievement. GOAT was settled years ago, but I was convinced he was almost finished, with what Sinner and Alcaraz had done, and done to him. He just had knee surgery. |
2014 Wimbledon settled for me the GOAT conversation when I saw that Djokovic was legitimately outplaying Federer (by a very small margin but still noticeable) at Wimbledon when Fed was throwing everything at him and had returned to form by recovering from the back issues of 2013 and was now playing with a bigger racket. Federer had everything back by 2014 Wimbledon and it still wasnt enough against a Djokovic who at the time was reeling from having lost several grand slams in recent times. God I rooted so hard for Fed and yet my gut told me Djokovic was the better player ever so slightly. Since that year, the only year Fed would have beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon was 2017 - the aggressive backhand return Federer of 2017 against Djokovic at near his lowest point. |
That’s crazy if you felt that way in 2014.
Djokovic had 7 majors by that point:
| Quote: | AO - 4
FO - 0
W - 2
USO - 1 |
Also here’s the grand slam counts at that time:
| Quote: | Federer - 17
Nadal - 14
Djokovic - 7 |
To be considered the GOAT at that point? That’s a bit premature. |
I think its similar to how many people considered Jordan the GOAT after his three-peat beating Phoenix in 1993 even though he had only won 3 at the time whereas Magic had still won 5 and Kareem 6. You just know it in your gut who the better player is by watching them and you realize who has the fundamental advantage.
To me there are 2 consistent reasons why Federer could not beat Djokovic after 2012 but really Djokovic had surpassed Fed by 2011. 1. The tennis skill aspect: Djokovic's backhand down the line to Federer's forehand as Fed tries desperately to reach/lunge for the ball was always a problem as well as Fed's backhand holding up in a prolonged rally. But this in itself is not enough for why Fed could not beat Nole. 2. The true difference why one handed backhand and inferior player Wawinka could at times trouble and beat even prime Djokovic whereas Fed could not: Fed's lack of power to bully Djokovic and really move him around the court and control the point consistently. With just only a little (whisker) more natural power that could get Djokovic out of his comfort zone, Federer would still be considered the GOAT. |
Spot-on about Stan. That's why he won 3 majors. He had the ability to hit through Djoker or anyone else. And that's even with a huge weakness, which was that he basically only hit a chip forehand return. Any player who has the ability to turn a point around in a flash if he's not completely on the defensive is very dangerous, indeed. It's why Del Potro likely would have won multiple majors if he had been able to avoid injury. His forehand was absolutely blistering. |
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Halflife
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Pretty stunning. What an achievement. GOAT was settled years ago, but I was convinced he was almost finished, with what Sinner and Alcaraz had done, and done to him. He just had knee surgery. |
2014 Wimbledon settled for me the GOAT conversation when I saw that Djokovic was legitimately outplaying Federer (by a very small margin but still noticeable) at Wimbledon when Fed was throwing everything at him and had returned to form by recovering from the back issues of 2013 and was now playing with a bigger racket. Federer had everything back by 2014 Wimbledon and it still wasnt enough against a Djokovic who at the time was reeling from having lost several grand slams in recent times. God I rooted so hard for Fed and yet my gut told me Djokovic was the better player ever so slightly. Since that year, the only year Fed would have beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon was 2017 - the aggressive backhand return Federer of 2017 against Djokovic at near his lowest point. |
Surprised by 2014, that was before I was convinced. By 2016 after he won four straight grand slams, I was sure, barring Nadal elevating his game to new heights and generally outdoing Djokovic. All the wins after that were not icing, but like a whole other cake on top of the first one.
2014, really? |
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Pretty stunning. What an achievement. GOAT was settled years ago, but I was convinced he was almost finished, with what Sinner and Alcaraz had done, and done to him. He just had knee surgery. |
2014 Wimbledon settled for me the GOAT conversation when I saw that Djokovic was legitimately outplaying Federer (by a very small margin but still noticeable) at Wimbledon when Fed was throwing everything at him and had returned to form by recovering from the back issues of 2013 and was now playing with a bigger racket. Federer had everything back by 2014 Wimbledon and it still wasnt enough against a Djokovic who at the time was reeling from having lost several grand slams in recent times. God I rooted so hard for Fed and yet my gut told me Djokovic was the better player ever so slightly. Since that year, the only year Fed would have beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon was 2017 - the aggressive backhand return Federer of 2017 against Djokovic at near his lowest point. |
That’s crazy if you felt that way in 2014.
Djokovic had 7 majors by that point:
| Quote: | AO - 4
FO - 0
W - 2
USO - 1 |
Also here’s the grand slam counts at that time:
| Quote: | Federer - 17
Nadal - 14
Djokovic - 7 |
To be considered the GOAT at that point? That’s a bit premature. |
I think its similar to how many people considered Jordan the GOAT after his three-peat beating Phoenix in 1993 even though he had only won 3 at the time whereas Magic had still won 5 and Kareem 6. You just know it in your gut who the better player is by watching them and you realize who has the fundamental advantage.
To me there are 2 consistent reasons why Federer could not beat Djokovic after 2012 but really Djokovic had surpassed Fed by 2011. 1. The tennis skill aspect: Djokovic's backhand down the line to Federer's forehand as Fed tries desperately to reach/lunge for the ball was always a problem as well as Fed's backhand holding up in a prolonged rally. But this in itself is not enough for why Fed could not beat Nole. 2. The true difference why one handed backhand and inferior player Wawinka could at times trouble and beat even prime Djokovic whereas Fed could not: Fed's lack of power to bully Djokovic and really move him around the court and control the point consistently. With just only a little (whisker) more natural power that could get Djokovic out of his comfort zone, Federer would still be considered the GOAT. |
Spot-on about Stan. That's why he won 3 majors. He had the ability to hit through Djoker or anyone else. And that's even with a huge weakness, which was that he basically only hit a chip forehand return. Any player who has the ability to turn a point around in a flash if he's not completely on the defensive is very dangerous, indeed. It's why Del Potro likely would have won multiple majors if he had been able to avoid injury. His forehand was absolutely blistering. |
Backhand was no slouch either. He was 20 when he took out Federer for the US Open so agree on him and Wawrinka. The Big 4 never had a very top tier power player challenging them for Slam titles. Wawrinka came the closest to that definition over time, more than Del Potro. I wonder why the swiss non-legend could not challenge for the top more. I think Nadal owned him, which I don't get from a game, tools point of view. |
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Pretty intimidating presence. Poor Ruud. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | focus wrote: | | Pretty stunning. What an achievement. GOAT was settled years ago, but I was convinced he was almost finished, with what Sinner and Alcaraz had done, and done to him. He just had knee surgery. |
2014 Wimbledon settled for me the GOAT conversation when I saw that Djokovic was legitimately outplaying Federer (by a very small margin but still noticeable) at Wimbledon when Fed was throwing everything at him and had returned to form by recovering from the back issues of 2013 and was now playing with a bigger racket. Federer had everything back by 2014 Wimbledon and it still wasnt enough against a Djokovic who at the time was reeling from having lost several grand slams in recent times. God I rooted so hard for Fed and yet my gut told me Djokovic was the better player ever so slightly. Since that year, the only year Fed would have beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon was 2017 - the aggressive backhand return Federer of 2017 against Djokovic at near his lowest point. |
That’s crazy if you felt that way in 2014.
Djokovic had 7 majors by that point:
| Quote: | AO - 4
FO - 0
W - 2
USO - 1 |
Also here’s the grand slam counts at that time:
| Quote: | Federer - 17
Nadal - 14
Djokovic - 7 |
To be considered the GOAT at that point? That’s a bit premature. |
I think its similar to how many people considered Jordan the GOAT after his three-peat beating Phoenix in 1993 even though he had only won 3 at the time whereas Magic had still won 5 and Kareem 6. You just know it in your gut who the better player is by watching them and you realize who has the fundamental advantage.
To me there are 2 consistent reasons why Federer could not beat Djokovic after 2012 but really Djokovic had surpassed Fed by 2011. 1. The tennis skill aspect: Djokovic's backhand down the line to Federer's forehand as Fed tries desperately to reach/lunge for the ball was always a problem as well as Fed's backhand holding up in a prolonged rally. But this in itself is not enough for why Fed could not beat Nole. 2. The true difference why one handed backhand and inferior player Wawinka could at times trouble and beat even prime Djokovic whereas Fed could not: Fed's lack of power to bully Djokovic and really move him around the court and control the point consistently. With just only a little (whisker) more natural power that could get Djokovic out of his comfort zone, Federer would still be considered the GOAT. |
Spot-on about Stan. That's why he won 3 majors. He had the ability to hit through Djoker or anyone else. And that's even with a huge weakness, which was that he basically only hit a chip forehand return. Any player who has the ability to turn a point around in a flash if he's not completely on the defensive is very dangerous, indeed. It's why Del Potro likely would have won multiple majors if he had been able to avoid injury. His forehand was absolutely blistering. |
Backhand was no slouch either. He was 20 when he took out Federer for the US Open so agree on him and Wawrinka. The Big 4 never had a very top tier power player challenging them for Slam titles. Wawrinka came the closest to that definition over time, more than Del Potro. I wonder why the swiss non-legend could not challenge for the top more. I think Nadal owned him, which I don't get from a game, tools point of view. |
Perhaps like Federer, he didn't like the high bounce of Nadal's ball to his backhand side? Or maybe it's just Nadal's ball in general, with that heavy topspin. Djokovic hits a "cleaner" ball, essentially, and for many guys, that's just easier to deal with from a pace/strike zone standpoint. (Of course, dealing with everything that Djoker brings to the table is most difficult, as we know.) |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Jannik Sinner avoids ban after twice testing positive for steroid
Top-ranked tennis player Jannik Sinner tested positive twice for an anabolic steroid in March, but he will not be suspended after the International Tennis Integrity Agency on Tuesday determined that the banned substance entered his system unintentionally through a massage from his physiotherapist.
........
During the Indian Wells hard-court event in March, Sinner tested positive for low levels of a metabolite of clostebol, a banned anabolic steroid that can be used for ophthalmological and dermatological use. It's the same drug for which San Diego Padres star Fernando Tatis Jr. was suspended by MLB.
Sinner tested positive again eight days later in an out-of-competition sample.
He was provisionally suspended because of those test results, but he successfully appealed and was allowed to keep competing on tour. He will, however, lose the $325,000 and 400 points that he had earned at the tournament in Indian Wells.
In its ruling, the ITIA said the low levels of clostebol from the tests on March 10 and March 18 were:
| Quote: | | "a result of contamination from a support team member, who had been applying an over-the-counter spray containing clostebol to their own skin to treat a small wound." |
The support team member then passed along the anabolic agent transdermally via "daily massages and sports therapy" to Sinner.
In its statement, the ITIA it "did not oppose the player's appeals to lift the provisional suspension" and that "the violation was not intentional."
An independent panel held a hearing on Aug. 15 and "determined a finding of No Fault or Negligence applied in the case, resulting in no period of ineligibility," according to the ITIA.
ITIA CEO Karen Moorhouse said "Sinner and his representatives fully cooperated" with her group's "thorough investigation."
The World Anti-Doping Agency and Italy's anti-doping body are both allowed to appeal the decision.
| Quote: | "We are encouraged that no fault or negligence has been found on Jannik Sinner's part," the ATP Tour said in a statement. "We would also like to acknowledge the robustness of the investigation process and independent evaluation of the facts under the Tennis Anti-Doping Program (TADP), which has allowed him to continue competing.
"This has been a challenging matter for Jannik and his team, and underscores the need for players and their entourages to take utmost care in the use of products or treatments. Integrity is paramount in our sport." |
https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/40928617/tennis-jannik-sinner-tested-positive-steroids-avoids-ban
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Anyone buy this? |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:04 am Post subject: |
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^They told him it was flaxseed oil. 
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Nicholas Kyrgios
@NickKyrgios
Ridiculous - whether it was accidental or planned. You get tested twice with a banned (steroid) substance… you should be gone for 2 years. Your performance was enhanced. Massage cream…. Yeah nice 🙄
https://x.com/NickKyrgios/status/1825918412914307398 |
| Quote: | Nicholas Kyrgios
@NickKyrgios
Accidental? You truly believe that the physio rubbed physio cream onto a cut that made him fail 2 anabolic steroid tests. Cmon potato |
| Quote: | Denis Shapovalov
@denis_shapo
Can’t imagine what every other player that got banned for contaminated substances is feeling right now |
| Quote: | Denis Shapovalov
@denis_shapo
Different rules for different players |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The story does seem kind of unrealistic, number one. And number two, we now have two of Darren Cahill's top "pupils", one a man and one a woman, testing positive for PED's. Coincidence? Yeah, suuuuuuuuure. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Jannik Sinner shakes up staff after positive doping tests
play
World No. 1 Jannik Sinner confirmed he had parted ways with fitness coach Umberto Ferrara and physiotherapist Giacomo Naldi after the two were deemed responsible for Sinner's two positive tests for a banned substance in March.
Speaking to reporters for the first time since the doping results and subsequent ruling by the International Tennis Integrity Agency (ITIA) were released Tuesday, Sinner praised Ferrara and Naldi for their work over the past two seasons in a news conference at the US Open but said he needed to make a change.
| Quote: | | "Now, because of these mistakes, I'm not feeling that confident to continue with them," Sinner said. "The only thing I just need right now, just some clean air. You know, I was struggling a lot in the last months. Now I was waiting for the result, and now I just need some clean air." |
On Tuesday, a day after Sinner won the Cincinnati Open, the ITIA announced Sinner had tested positive for low levels of clostebol, a banned anabolic steroid that can be used for ophthalmological and dermatological use, on both March 10 and March 18. He was provisionally suspended at the time but was able to compete while he appealed the findings.
According to the ITIA, an independent panel held a hearing on Aug. 15 and "determined a finding of No Fault or Negligence applied in the case, resulting in no period of ineligibility." The ITIA added that the traces of the substance were a "result of contamination from a support team member, who had been applying an over-the-counter spray containing clostebol to their own skin to treat a small wound."
Per the ruling, Ferrara purchased the spray and Naldi used it on himself prior to giving Sinner a massage, thus inadvertently contaminating Sinner.
Sinner was stripped of his ranking points and prize money from Indian Wells, the site of the first positive test, but was not suspended. Sinner called it a "long process" and said he had been concerned about the ITIA's ruling for months while awaiting their final decision.
| Quote: | "Of course I was worried, because it was the first time for me, you know, and hopefully the last time that I am in this situation, position," Sinner said Friday.
Sinner added that the amount of clostebol in his body was "0.000000001, so there are a lot of zeroes before coming up a 1. So I was worried, of course, because I'm always the player who was working very, very carefully in this. I believe I'm a fair player on and off the court." |
Sinner, 23, who is the reigning Australian Open champion and a favorite at the US Open, said he wasn't sure how the ruling or the findings would affect his reputation on tour but also didn't believe he had received any special treatment because of his ranking or stature. Several players, including Nick Kyrgios and Denis Shapovalov, have been critical of what they perceive as a double standard.
| Quote: | "Every player who gets tested positive has to go through the same process," Sinner said. "There is no shortcut, there is no different treatment, they are all the same process.
"I know sometimes the frustration of other players obviously. But maybe because they got suspended is they didn't know exactly where it comes from, also what substance, but the main reason is where it comes from and how it entered in his own system. We knew it straightaway, and we were aware of what happened. We went straightaway, and I was suspended for two, three days. I couldn't practice and everything. But they accepted it very, very fast, and that's why." |
https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/40966933/jannik-sinner-shakes-staff-positive-doping-tests
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Sinner's doubling down on his story by firing these 2 staff members. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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He's also being misleading about "everyone going through the same process". He received emergency hearings and exemptions to play in Miami and Monte Carlo while he was supposed to be suspended during the investigation. Other players had to wait months for their appeals to be heard.
The ATP president is Italian. I'm sure it's just a coincidence. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2024 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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^
Plus he said he knew right away what it was and how it got into his system, as if this is some sort of exculpatory evidence.
I think all PED users have a ready made explanation if they are caught? It’d be dumb not to.
Sharapova had one - she blamed it on her heart medication or something.
Tatis had one - he blamed it on a OTC skin rash cream
Every PED user has one. So Skinner’s rationale that having a ready made explanation proves he’s not a cheater is a bit silly logic. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 8:02 am Post subject: |
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The US OPEN gets underway today. I think Novak Djokovic has a quest. That being to stand alone with 25 majors. He's tied with Margaret Court at 24.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Final
#3 Coco Gauf 6 6
#66 Varvara Gracheva 2 0
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be
because we destroyed ourselves. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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I know she didn't exactly come into this event as one of the favorites, but it's still jarring to see Sloane Stephens blowing her opening round match after being up 6-0, 3-0, and then serving for the match in the third set and blowing that too.
Tiafoe just beat another American in 4 sets to advance. A third round clash against Shelton looms, if both win their second round matches. That would be #13 Shelton against #20 Tiafoe. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I know she didn't exactly come into this event as one of the favorites, but it's still jarring to see Sloane Stephens blowing her opening round match after being up 6-0, 3-0, and then serving for the match in the third set and blowing that too.
Tiafoe just beat another American in 4 sets to advance. A third round clash against Shelton looms, if both win their second round matches. That would be #13 Shelton against #20 Tiafoe. |
Sloane doesn't seem to have the necessary fire to be a top tier player.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be
because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Wed Aug 28, 2024 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2024 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Osaka spanked #10 Ostapenko, her first win against a top-10 player in 4 years.
Great Britain's Dan Evans just beat #23 Karen Khachanov in the longest match in US Open history, coming back from 0-4 down in the 5th set to win 6-4. Khachanov was really struggling physically even as he took the lead, and Evans was the much fresher player in the end. Five hours and 35 minutes! |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I'm pulling for Madison Keys. She had to retire from Wimbledon doing very well with the runner-up Jasmine Paolini because of a leg injury. She had a good chance to win the tournament.
She won the first set at the US OPEN and is leading the second 3-0. Madison's upper left thigh is taped. I hope it holds up.
#14 Madison Kyes bested #135 Maya Joint 6-4 6-0.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | I'm pulling for Madison Keys. She had to retire from Wimbledon doing very well with the runner-up Jasmine Paolini because of a leg injury. She had a good chance to win the tournament.
She won the first set at the US OPEN and is leading the second 3-0. Madison's upper left thigh is taped. I hope it holds up.
#14 Madison Kyes bested #135 Maya Joint 6-4 6-0. |
Yeah the tape is for the same injury, or the possible effects of it, anyway. It was an adductor injury. |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 18963
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| What happened to Naomi Osaka? Don't follow tennis closely |
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ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 33444
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | What happened to Naomi Osaka? Don't follow tennis closely |
This is a crude and shortened version of it, but basically, she was on top of the tennis world and looked like the next big thing, then she sparred with the press and felt that some sexist stuff was being lobbed her way, she had a mental breakdown of sorts, she stepped away from the game for a while to deal with that, then she had a baby, and since she's come back, she hasn't really been able to recapture her old form. At least, not yet.
As they said in Spaceballs, that's the short, short version. |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 18963
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2024 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| Ah gotcha, that's a shame. But hopefully this is her comeback story then. |
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