Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 30197 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 7:02 am Post subject:
defense wrote:
He has his issues, but kind of not giving credit where it is due. He has already won a championship as 1A. Unless you think the bubble does not count? Its a matter of playing to his strengths and his running mate going 100 percent less than half the time.
The championship counts. Just like when the Spurs won a chip in that lockout shortened season. It counted. There are no asterisks. Everyone played under the same circumstances.
I remember watching all those games. And I thought Bron was the clear cut #1. And I thought Bron deserved the Finals MVP.
Recently I've seen people say, AD was actually the #1. And to be honest, I'm not passionate enough to debate it.
But I will stand by. He has durability and mindset issues, _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
Last edited by kikanga on Sat Nov 18, 2023 6:26 am; edited 1 time in total
I think the whole #1A #1B discussion is kinda dumb but AD is clearly not someone you build a championship level around in terms of his self creation skills. That's what I feel it boils down to.
Not sure about his inconsistency, didn't watch yesterday but he clearly got destroyed by Sabonis. Not sure if it's injuries or what but I also just don't love him guarding these big bruiser types. Ideally in the playoffs LeBron is the guy guarding Sabonis, he just has the right build for those matchups. Maybe Rui based on how he guarded Towns
I think the whole #1A #1B discussion is kinda dumb but AD is clearly not someone you build a championship level around in terms of his self creation skills. That's what I feel it boils down to.
Not sure about his inconsistency, didn't watch yesterday but he clearly got destroyed by Sabonis. Not sure if it's injuries or what but I also just don't love him guarding these big bruiser types. Ideally in the playoffs LeBron is the guy guarding Sabonis, he just has the right build for those matchups. Maybe Rui based on how he guarded Towns
I agree and I actually meant to say 1B not 1A. In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is he is clearly good enough to win a championship as one of the two main pieces. Is this no linger true? If so, we need to dump him and Lebron and rebuilt, do we not?
AD’s defensive impact is why we won. He was guarding Butler. Offensively you can give the edge to Lebron for sure - but AD’s defensive impact was absolutely insane - and ultimately the reason we won. I know I’m in the minority but AD was the clear 1A to me overall.
I think the whole #1A #1B discussion is kinda dumb but AD is clearly not someone you build a championship level around in terms of his self creation skills. That's what I feel it boils down to.
Not sure about his inconsistency, didn't watch yesterday but he clearly got destroyed by Sabonis. Not sure if it's injuries or what but I also just don't love him guarding these big bruiser types. Ideally in the playoffs LeBron is the guy guarding Sabonis, he just has the right build for those matchups. Maybe Rui based on how he guarded Towns
I agree and I actually meant to say 1B not 1A. In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is he is clearly good enough to win a championship as one of the two main pieces. Is this no linger true? If so, we need to dump him and Lebron and rebuilt, do we not?
I think it's pretty obvious that AD is still good enough to win as the 1B, the problem is LeBron isn't really as transcendental. I think with 2020 LeBron we are the favorites to win it all. It's not even that I think LeBron isn't playing up to his $47M salary per se. It's more that the top shelf superstars like Jokic and Giannis and regular season Embiid outplay even a max level salary.
Anyway, the 2014 Spurs show that you don't really need that much top shelf talent if the whole team coalesces properly. But how often does that happen? Will these Lakers be one of those teams? The odds are against them, but I wouldn't say they don't have a chance. Their best hope is to follow the 2022 Warriors which seemed a bit flukey in certain regards, but a ring is a ring
Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 12526 Location: Bay Area
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:37 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
Bron2AD wrote:
kikanga wrote:
He has a brittle body man. He doesn't handle physicality well. Maybe we should just move him to the 4 and live with the poor floor spacing. I dunno. I'm kinda at my wits end with this guy.
The inconsistency is frustrating.
29/16/7/3 by sabonis on his head is embarrassing
He's a tweener in a bad way. Too brittle to play the 5. Too poor of a floor spacer to play the 4.
As a 3rd option. He can make you a championship favorite.
As a 2nd option. No chance at a chip in Jokic's conference. Unless alot of things go well. Including a once in a century pandemic that gives him a multi-month break. Plus a PG who can be his offensive brain and spoon feed him points like Rondo.
And as a 1st option, when Bron leaves/retires. You're dreaming.
That seems harsh. But it's true.
And to his credit. He is elite defensively. Top tier in the league when he's not up against Jokic. And if he's healthy enough. He's a lock for the all star team. Definitely top 20 in the league. Just nowhere near top 5. Now or in the foreseeable future.
I see why people believe in him though. He has the talent.
He just doesn't have the durability or mindset.
You make it sound like we needed COVID to win 2020, which is absurd. COVID's probably the reason we didn't go back to back. We were far and away the best team in 2021 before AD got injured, which is the direct result of virtually no offseason
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 30197 Location: La La Land
Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 2:57 pm Post subject:
Cutheon wrote:
You make it sound like we needed COVID to win 2020, which is absurd. COVID's probably the reason we didn't go back to back. We were far and away the best team in 2021 before AD got injured, which is the direct result of virtually no offseason
It’s not a matter of talent with AD. It’s mentality and durability. That’s why I don’t believe in him as a #1 for a championship. And why a lot of things have to go right for him to be a #2 for a championship. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
He has a brittle body man. He doesn't handle physicality well. Maybe we should just move him to the 4 and live with the poor floor spacing. I dunno. I'm kinda at my wits end with this guy.
The inconsistency is frustrating.
29/16/7/3 by sabonis on his head is embarrassing
He's a tweener in a bad way. Too brittle to play the 5. Too poor of a floor spacer to play the 4.
As a 3rd option. He can make you a championship favorite.
As a 2nd option. No chance at a chip in Jokic's conference. Unless alot of things go well. Including a once in a century pandemic that gives him a multi-month break. Plus a PG who can be his offensive brain and spoon feed him points like Rondo.
And as a 1st option, when Bron leaves/retires. You're dreaming.
That seems harsh. But it's true.
And to his credit. He is elite defensively. Top tier in the league when he's not up against Jokic. And if he's healthy enough. He's a lock for the all star team. Definitely top 20 in the league. Just nowhere near top 5. Now or in the foreseeable future.
I see why people believe in him though. He has the talent.
He just doesn't have the durability or mindset.
He almost did last year, if his first option didn't let him down in the clutch. Despite playing out of position to fit in said first option... He obviously needs a playmaker to feed him good looks, he doesn't have the ball handling to create shots for himself, so having a guy who knows how to take advantage of AD is obviously imperative. _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
AD’s defensive impact is why we won. He was guarding Butler. Offensively you can give the edge to Lebron for sure - but AD’s defensive impact was absolutely insane - and ultimately the reason we won. I know I’m in the minority but AD was the clear 1A to me overall.
Usually defense won't matter in the 1A and 1B discussion, because to most people a 1 is a high scoring superstar (which Davis is/was too). James certainly has the numbers to support his case as the best player that Finals run, but let's not forget he is the guy running the plays, so he gets to chose when it's "his turn or ADs turn". And AD needing to be set up helps James too, because AD scoring will boost his assist numbers. I think had we went more to Davis in that series we'd still have won. But James would never willingly go to another guy when he knows he can do it too _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
Sabonis, Sengun… no more monster games against you after this AD! Be better _________________ “The main goal for the Lakers is to win a championship. All I care about, all we care about, is to raise another banner in the rafters.“
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 30197 Location: La La Land
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:29 am Post subject:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
He almost did last year, if his first option didn't let him down in the clutch. Despite playing out of position to fit in said first option... He obviously needs a playmaker to feed him good looks, he doesn't have the ball handling to create shots for himself, so having a guy who knows how to take advantage of AD is obviously imperative.
I've watched alot of Bball throughout my life. I'm not sure I've ever seen a guard set up a big better than Rondo did for AD in the 2018 and 2020 playoffs. People forget, Rondo would turn Bron plays, into Brow plays. Like that game 2 game winner.
Even during the regular season. Rondo would get the ball. Organize all 4 of his teammates. Just to run a play to get AD easy buckets.
There aren't alot of players with Rondo's combination of IQ, reputation, desire to playmake. To be honest, our current PG is practically the polar opposite.
Playing alongside that type of guard makes AD, Jokic/Embiid/Giannis level consistent on offense. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
He has his issues, but kind of not giving credit where it is due. He has already won a championship as 1A. Unless you think the bubble does not count? Its a matter of playing to his strengths and his running mate going 100 percent less than half the time.
The championship counts. Just like when the Spurs won a chip in that lockout shortened season. It counted. There are no asterisks. Everyone played under the same circumstances.
I remember watching all those games. And I thought Bron was the clear cut #1. And I thought Bron deserved the Finals MVP.
Recently I've seen people say, AD was actually the #1. And to be honest, I'm not passionate enough to debate it.
But I will stand by. He has durability and mindset issues,
Durability issues? Yes. Mindset? Perhaps. I believe it to be something I've noted for years: emotional disposition. His innate disposition is such that he cannot maintain a high level of emotional intensity for long periods of time.
Look what happened in the very first game of the season. He was healthy, his mindset was fine, and then he laid an egg; emotionally he wasn't ready.
It's one of the unique traits that absolutely distinguishes greatness in Jordan, Kobe, Giannnis, Curry, etc., AD doesn't have it. The remedy is two-fold: (1) he's good for awhile after a bad game (2) LeBron & Ham in his ear with razor sharp points to keep is ass moving.
I think the whole #1A #1B discussion is kinda dumb but AD is clearly not someone you build a championship level around in terms of his self creation skills. That's what I feel it boils down to.
Not sure about his inconsistency, didn't watch yesterday but he clearly got destroyed by Sabonis. Not sure if it's injuries or what but I also just don't love him guarding these big bruiser types. Ideally in the playoffs LeBron is the guy guarding Sabonis, he just has the right build for those matchups. Maybe Rui based on how he guarded Towns
I agree and I actually meant to say 1B not 1A. In the end it doesn't matter. What matters is he is clearly good enough to win a championship as one of the two main pieces. Is this no linger true? If so, we need to dump him and Lebron and rebuilt, do we not?
I think it's pretty obvious that AD is still good enough to win as the 1B, the problem is LeBron isn't really as transcendental. I think with 2020 LeBron we are the favorites to win it all. It's not even that I think LeBron isn't playing up to his $47M salary per se. It's more that the top shelf superstars like Jokic and Giannis and regular season Embiid outplay even a max level salary.
Anyway, the 2014 Spurs show that you don't really need that much top shelf talent if the whole team coalesces properly. But how often does that happen? Will these Lakers be one of those teams? The odds are against them, but I wouldn't say they don't have a chance. Their best hope is to follow the 2022 Warriors which seemed a bit flukey in certain regards, but a ring is a ring
I get it. Simply addressing the AD is not good enough talk. I think he is good enough. It's everything around him that needs to get better. Season is young. We have a lot of new players. Lets see how it goes. Would not shock me to see them go on a run like last season.
+1 to that defense.
I have to say, Cam's emergence is massive. I have concerns that come playoffs time, he will get the Vando treatment and not be able to make them at a similar rate either, but the pieces are there.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 30197 Location: La La Land
Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:31 pm Post subject:
defense wrote:
I get it. Simply addressing the AD is not good enough talk. I think he is good enough. It's everything around him that needs to get better. Season is young. We have a lot of new players. Lets see how it goes. Would not shock me to see them go on a run like last season.
If we stay healthy. And avoid a fully healthy Nuggets (maybe THEY get hurt, or get knocked out by someone else). I think we could win it all. And I'd happily eat crow on my AD takes. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
He almost did last year, if his first option didn't let him down in the clutch. Despite playing out of position to fit in said first option... He obviously needs a playmaker to feed him good looks, he doesn't have the ball handling to create shots for himself, so having a guy who knows how to take advantage of AD is obviously imperative.
I've watched alot of Bball throughout my life. I'm not sure I've ever seen a guard set up a big better than Rondo did for AD in the 2018 and 2020 playoffs. People forget, Rondo would turn Bron plays, into Brow plays. Like that game 2 game winner.
Even during the regular season. Rondo would get the ball. Organize all 4 of his teammates. Just to run a play to get AD easy buckets.
There aren't alot of players with Rondo's combination of IQ, reputation, desire to playmake. To be honest, our current PG is practically the polar opposite.
Playing alongside that type of guard makes AD, Jokic/Embiid/Giannis level consistent on offense.
Rondo was incredible for us, and I watched those Pelicans go through the playoffs, their chemistry was amazing. AD had a stretch with Westbrook where he had high scoring games, when Russ was in his 6th man role and looking to facilitate. Schröder could have been that guy for us, a shame we let him walk _________________ 48 49 50 52 53 54 72 80 82
85 87 88 00 01 02 09 10 20
I get it. Simply addressing the AD is not good enough talk. I think he is good enough. It's everything around him that needs to get better. Season is young. We have a lot of new players. Lets see how it goes. Would not shock me to see them go on a run like last season.
If we stay healthy. And avoid a fully healthy Nuggets (maybe THEY get hurt, or get knocked out by someone else). I think we could win it all. And I'd happily eat crow on my AD takes.
Yea, I think Nuggets are similar to us but their 1-2 I think it’s better than ours and their 3-5 is also better than ours, our trump card (or Biden) is AD’s defensive prowess _________________ “The main goal for the Lakers is to win a championship. All I care about, all we care about, is to raise another banner in the rafters.“
Joined: 02 Jan 2012 Posts: 12406 Location: The Two One Three
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:06 am Post subject:
I wanna see this type of dominance from him on a consistent basis. Every fking game. No more duds. I am not holding my breath. _________________ The butter's hard and the eggs are chillin' in the dark.
Joined: 02 Jan 2012 Posts: 12406 Location: The Two One Three
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:19 am Post subject:
MJST wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
I wanna see this type of dominance from him on a consistent basis. Every fking game. No more duds. I am not holding my breath.
AD has only had 3 'bad' games this entire season.
Entire season? We're in its infancy and only 15 games in. That number should be zero. Is that the standard we're holding AD to now? Cause I think he should be great....game in and game out. At least those he's suited for. _________________ The butter's hard and the eggs are chillin' in the dark.
I wanna see this type of dominance from him on a consistent basis. Every fking game. No more duds. I am not holding my breath.
Utah doesn't have a big to make AD work. Where AD has most issues is when he has to play defensive 5 (man D) on top of all the great work he does as your team defender.
Overall though, the Lakers defense without AD would be bottom 10. With him, top 10. That's how valuable he is on D.
Luka, Giannis, Tatum etc all have multiple bad games this season. Jokic just got ejected in the first half for throwing a tantrum. Some of you dudes need to step away from the Xbox for a second and come back to reality. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points."
I wanna see this type of dominance from him on a consistent basis. Every fking game. No more duds. I am not holding my breath.
AD has only had 3 'bad' games this entire season.
Entire season? We're in its infancy and only 15 games in. That number should be zero. Is that the standard we're holding AD to now? Cause I think he should be great....game in and game out. At least those he's suited for.
If this is your expectation. No player will make you happy ever.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 30197 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:17 pm Post subject:
Hard_Butter wrote:
MJST wrote:
Hard_Butter wrote:
I wanna see this type of dominance from him on a consistent basis. Every fking game. No more duds. I am not holding my breath.
AD has only had 3 'bad' games this entire season.
Entire season? We're in its infancy and only 15 games in. That number should be zero. Is that the standard we're holding AD to now? Cause I think he should be great....game in and game out. At least those he's suited for.
To be fair, I think you are holding him to the same standard people held Pau when we were winning chips.
So I can't be mad.
I just want him to get the on-off court Net Rating up.
Net Rating:
AD On court: + 0.8
AD Off Court: - 0.3
Diversifying the way he impacts the game will help with that. And I think he can do that. We're only 15 games in. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
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You're dreaming.
