Alec Baldwin accidentally kills film crew member with prop gun (UPDATE 4/20/23: Charges dropped)
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:24 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Alec Baldwin Didn't Know Weapon Contained Live Rounds: Warrant

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An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, the Associated Press reports, citing court records released Friday.

“Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

Instead, the gun was loaded with live rounds, and when Baldwin pulled the trigger Thursday on the set of a Western, he killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Director Joel Souza, who was standing behind her, was wounded, the records said.


The Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office obtained the warrant Friday so investigators could document the scene at the ranch outside Santa Fe where the shooting took place. They sought Baldwin’s blood-stained costume for the film “Rust” as evidence, as well as the weapon that was fired, other prop guns and ammunition, and any footage that might exist.

According to the records, the gun was one of three that the film's armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted. Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application.


I don't understand why you would ever have live rounds loaded in any gun on a movie set.


You wouldn't on any well run production. Unfortunately this one wasn't anywhere close to that. It sounds like (a widely shared speculation) they may have had dummy rounds for use in close ups and to make guns appear loaded in use. And if you were dealing with a careless prop master, it's possible that live rounds were mistaken for inert dummies.


Oh, and an Assistant Director should never be handing any gun, inert or otherwise, to a cast member. The chain should always be between the specialized prop master and the cast member directly and should include a check to ensure the chambers/clips are clear if the weapon is supposed to be used in a non-firing situation.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Except that on set protocol is no weapon gets intentionally pointed at anyone at anytime, unloaded or otherwise. Even when it appears a gun is pointed at camera, it's at a cheated angle. It's possible that they broke that protocol, it sounds like that set was run by a bunch of foolish idiots trying to save every dollar they could. My guess would be they were getting ready to do a take and Baldwin dry fired without thinking about where it was pointed because he was told the gun was empty.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:40 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Except that on set protocol is no weapon gets intentionally pointed at anyone at anytime, unloaded or otherwise. Even when it appears a gun is pointed at camera, it's at a cheated angle. It's possible that they broke that protocol, it sounds like that set was run by a bunch of foolish idiots trying to save every dollar they could. My guess would be they were getting ready to do a take and Baldwin dry fired without thinking about where it was pointed because he was told the gun was empty.


Or he was told they were dummy rounds (the kind that still have a bullet attached for the head on camera angle) and neither he nor the victims observed proper safety standards.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject:

Btw, as both a former military and law enforcement person, I’ve never ever picked up a weapon without clearing it myself, even if I just watched someone else do it. You never ever ever ever rely on someone else to tell you the status of the weapon.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Except that on set protocol is no weapon gets intentionally pointed at anyone at anytime, unloaded or otherwise. Even when it appears a gun is pointed at camera, it's at a cheated angle. It's possible that they broke that protocol, it sounds like that set was run by a bunch of foolish idiots trying to save every dollar they could. My guess would be they were getting ready to do a take and Baldwin dry fired without thinking about where it was pointed because he was told the gun was empty.


Or he was told they were dummy rounds (the kind that still have a bullet attached for the head on camera angle) and neither he nor the victims observed proper safety standards.


Again, I said it's possible, but doesn't seem likely. It would have to mean that not only did they break protocol about pointing the gun at anyone, but it would also mean that Baldwin pulled the trigger while doing so, which wouldn't be necessary for simply lining up a shot.

Some interesting new info just arose from crew members speaking up. Someone reports that the camera crew's concern about gun safety arose from unintentional firing events. It's unlikely that a gun would misfire multiple times. But it is possible this was just one of a few mistakes regarding what the guns onset were prepped with.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:55 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Except that on set protocol is no weapon gets intentionally pointed at anyone at anytime, unloaded or otherwise. Even when it appears a gun is pointed at camera, it's at a cheated angle. It's possible that they broke that protocol, it sounds like that set was run by a bunch of foolish idiots trying to save every dollar they could. My guess would be they were getting ready to do a take and Baldwin dry fired without thinking about where it was pointed because he was told the gun was empty.


Or he was told they were dummy rounds (the kind that still have a bullet attached for the head on camera angle) and neither he nor the victims observed proper safety standards.


Again, I said it's possible, but doesn't seem likely. It would have to mean that not only did they break protocol about pointing the gun at anyone, but it would also mean that Baldwin pulled the trigger while doing so, which wouldn't be necessary for simply lining up a shot.

Some interesting new info just arose from crew members speaking up. Someone reports that the camera crew's concern about gun safety arose from unintentional firing events. It's unlikely that a gun would misfire multiple times. But it is possible this was just one of a few mistakes regarding what the guns onset were prepped with.


You’re more of an expert on procedures on set (although all gun safety procedures have common themes). It’s clear he pointed it at them (and since both were hit it likely means they were one behind the other and it was likely an actual live round), it stands to reason that he and possibly they screwed up in the part where he pointed it at them, and he obviously pulled the trigger. Lots of blame to go around, but no way no how a live round should be anywhere near that gun.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Except that on set protocol is no weapon gets intentionally pointed at anyone at anytime, unloaded or otherwise. Even when it appears a gun is pointed at camera, it's at a cheated angle. It's possible that they broke that protocol, it sounds like that set was run by a bunch of foolish idiots trying to save every dollar they could. My guess would be they were getting ready to do a take and Baldwin dry fired without thinking about where it was pointed because he was told the gun was empty.


Or he was told they were dummy rounds (the kind that still have a bullet attached for the head on camera angle) and neither he nor the victims observed proper safety standards.


Again, I said it's possible, but doesn't seem likely. It would have to mean that not only did they break protocol about pointing the gun at anyone, but it would also mean that Baldwin pulled the trigger while doing so, which wouldn't be necessary for simply lining up a shot.

Some interesting new info just arose from crew members speaking up. Someone reports that the camera crew's concern about gun safety arose from unintentional firing events. It's unlikely that a gun would misfire multiple times. But it is possible this was just one of a few mistakes regarding what the guns onset were prepped with.


You’re more of an expert on procedures on set (although all gun safety procedures have common themes). It’s clear he pointed it at them (and since both were hit it likely means they were one behind the other and it was likely an actual live round), it stands to reason that he and possibly they screwed up in the part where he pointed it at them, and he obviously pulled the trigger. Lots of blame to go around, but no way no how a live round should be anywhere near that gun.


Everything that is coming out about that set is that it was a total (bleep) show of safety violations, so anything is possible. But the scenario where Baldwin pointed the gun directly at the Director and DP and pulled the trigger simply to line up a shot where a gun that wasn't even supposed to go off in the first place seems unlikely.

But who knows for sure at this point. Everyone in charge was making stupid decisions the whole way through, including the three directly impacted buy this tragedy.

Edit to add: I just realized that some may not be aware that the old school idea of DPs/Directors physically lining up shots directly isn't really a thing anymore. You do walk throughs and rehearsals, but directors and dp's typically watch camera angles via video village, where the feed from the cameras go. If it was a matter of Baldwin trying to line up a shot of him shooting a gun at the camera, it likely would have been the cam ops in the line of fire.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It’s clear he pointed it at them (and since both were hit it likely means they were one behind the other and it was likely an actual live round), it stands to reason that he and possibly they screwed up in the part where he pointed it at them, and he obviously pulled the trigger.


I can think of a scenario where he pointed the gun in their direction but no one screwed up. (This is only if the were filming).

They are both behind the camera and the shot is of him shooting at the camera.


Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Yup. This is what I was thinking.

I can't think of a good reason why he'd be firing a gun at them if they weren't filming.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:33 pm    Post subject:

Does "Live Rounds" also equal blanks with a firing cap or does it only mean "actual bullets that kill people"?

Just wondering how actual bullets got near a prop gun on a movie set.. this is a case for Adrian Monk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Does "Live Rounds" also equal blanks with a firing cap or does it only mean "actual bullets that kill people"?

Just wondering how actual bullets got near a prop gun on a movie set.. this is a case for Adrian Monk


I read it as real bullets. Somebody screwed up because the round went thru 2 people.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:21 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It’s clear he pointed it at them (and since both were hit it likely means they were one behind the other and it was likely an actual live round), it stands to reason that he and possibly they screwed up in the part where he pointed it at them, and he obviously pulled the trigger.


I can think of a scenario where he pointed the gun in their direction but no one screwed up. (This is only if the were filming).

They are both behind the camera and the shot is of him shooting at the camera.


Omar Little wrote:
The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.


Yup. This is what I was thinking.

I can't think of a good reason why he'd be firing a gun at them if they weren't filming.


I’d lean more on Mule’s take here, it just seemed that if a bunch of crew had walked out (including camera people?) and the three of them were conversing on the set, that the logical thing is they were hashing out a scene or shoot angle and they thought the gun was empty or loaded with dummies (so the camera sees bullets in the cylinders). Maybe one of them had an idea for a change, and they were walking through it and at the point where the gun is pointed (“ he draws and fires…”) Alec just mines the shot and pulls the trigger because no one thinks there’s any danger, and because he’s tired and they’re lost in their convo he doesn’t point it to the right or left.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:35 am    Post subject:

Rachel Maddow had an expert prop master with expertise in guns on her show last night. He did a very effective demonstration that made it easier to understand for those of us who don't have experience with guns. But basically, they broke a series of rules designed to prevent this. Multiple people in the chain broke protocol. He said that even if a prop person hands you a gun and tells you it's cold, you are still never supposed to aim it at a person. And you never have your finger on the trigger -- until you know it's safe and you are filming -- and you still never point it at anyone. Multiple people got casual and sloppy. Apparently that's partly why several union crew walked off the set earlier. I foresee multiple lawsuits.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Rachel Maddow had an expert prop master with expertise in guns on her show last night. He did a very effective demonstration that made it easier to understand for those of us who don't have experience with guns. But basically, they broke a series of rules designed to prevent this. Multiple people in the chain broke protocol. He said that even if a prop person hands you a gun and tells you it's cold, you are still never supposed to aim it at a person. And you never have your finger on the trigger -- until you know it's safe and you are filming -- and you still never point it at anyone. Multiple people got casual and sloppy. Apparently that's partly why several union crew walked off the set earlier. I foresee multiple lawsuits.


Which why I lean towards Baldwin was casually handling the gun while having a discussion with the DP and Director. If it they were actually filming a shot, it's unlikely the gun would be pointed directly at anyone and less so the DP and Director. They would be in a different spot on set probably sitting and watching watching camera feeds with headphones and not downrange of the gun. Though again, from everything that has come out, that set was a disaster waiting to happen in some form, too many dangerous conditions, which is why the camera crew walked off. As I said previously, I saw the post from one of the camera ops who walked and he said gun safety was one of their issues.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject:

From the LA Times:

“The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.”

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:49 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Btw, as both a former military and law enforcement person, I’ve never ever picked up a weapon without clearing it myself, even if I just watched someone else do it. You never ever ever ever rely on someone else to tell you the status of the weapon.


I am not a gun person but I have been told by those who are gun experts that they never point a gun at anyone else assuming it is not loaded. Unfortunately, way too often mistakes are made and something happens.

For a loaded gun to be on a movie set makes no sense to me, I don't understand how that could happen and someone needs to answer for it.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:59 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Btw, as both a former military and law enforcement person, I’ve never ever picked up a weapon without clearing it myself, even if I just watched someone else do it. You never ever ever ever rely on someone else to tell you the status of the weapon.


I am not a gun person but I have been told by those who are gun experts that they never point a gun at anyone else assuming it is not loaded. Unfortunately, way too often mistakes are made and something happens.

For a loaded gun to be on a movie set makes no sense to me, I don't understand how that could happen and someone needs to answer for it.


Because it doesn't make sense. And the industry is literally rethinking it's approach as we speak due to this incident. One show, The Rookies, has already said they will have no "live" fire (as in blanks that actually fire) on its set. I suspect others will voluntarily do the same if there isn't in fact new restrictions put in place by the boards.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Because it doesn't make sense. And the industry is literally rethinking it's approach as we speak due to this incident. One show, The Rookies, has already said they will have no "live" fire (as in blanks that actually fire) on its set. I suspect others will voluntarily do the same if there isn't in fact new restrictions put in place by the boards.


Are we at the point where CGI can achieve any appearance or effect that previously would have required any kind of live fire?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Because it doesn't make sense. And the industry is literally rethinking it's approach as we speak due to this incident. One show, The Rookies, has already said they will have no "live" fire (as in blanks that actually fire) on its set. I suspect others will voluntarily do the same if there isn't in fact new restrictions put in place by the boards.


Are we at the point where CGI can achieve any appearance or effect that previously would have required any kind of live fire?


Very much so. In fact, it is something that as I have done many times myself in early stages of cuts. On one pilot, my "temps" were re-rendered for final comps because the Director was so pleased with them. There is absolutely no need to do them practically anymore.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
From the LA Times:

“The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.”


So either he accidentally pulled the trigger while trying to pull the gun out of its holster OR the gun somehow fired on it's own due to some mechanical failure? Is that possible?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:16 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
From the LA Times:

“The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.”


So either he accidentally pulled the trigger while trying to pull the gun out of its holster OR the gun somehow fired on it's own due to some mechanical failure? Is that possible?


Since it was a revolver that fired via a hammer, I could see a scenario where the hammer catches on something and fires. But I defer to our gun experts here on that one.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:20 am    Post subject:

BTW, I just read on another breakdown of the events on that set, the armorer’s daughter had recently used that weapon for target practice with real bullets. So that explains how the real bullet may have ended up in set. And this armored said herself in a prior interview that when she became, she was nervous about it and not totally sure she be doing the job. But her father, an armored by trade helped her through the early jitters.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
BTW, I just read on another breakdown of the events on that set, the armorer’s daughter had recently used that weapon for target practice with real bullets. So that explains how the real bullet may have ended up in set. And this armored said herself in a prior interview that when she became, she was nervous about it and not totally sure she be doing the job. But her father, an armored by trade helped her through the early jitters.


Again, I'm no expert but even I can see about 6 things wrong with this scenario.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
From the LA Times:

“The actor was preparing to film a scene in which he pulls a gun out of a holster, according to a source close to the production. Crew members had already shouted “cold gun” on the set. The filmmaking team was lining up its camera angles and had yet to retreat to the video village, an on-set area where the crew gathers to watch filming from a distance via a monitor.
Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her.

Baldwin removed the gun from its holster once without incident, but the second time he did so, ammunition flew toward the trio around the monitor. The projectile whizzed by the camera operator but penetrated Hutchins near her shoulder, then continued through to Souza. Hutchins immediately fell to the ground as crew members applied pressure to her wound in an attempt to stop the bleeding.”


So either he accidentally pulled the trigger while trying to pull the gun out of its holster OR the gun somehow fired on it's own due to some mechanical failure? Is that possible?


Since it was a revolver that fired via a hammer, I could see a scenario where the hammer catches on something and fires. But I defer to our gun experts here on that one.


Possible, but not as likely as he just fired it because he thought it was cold.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Btw, as both a former military and law enforcement person, I’ve never ever picked up a weapon without clearing it myself, even if I just watched someone else do it. You never ever ever ever rely on someone else to tell you the status of the weapon.


Didn’t know that was your history.
I’m surprised.

I’ve never seen you defend unnecessary military intervention.
Or defend lethal force from law enforcement as a method to deescalate.
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Last edited by kikanga on Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Also possible he “dry fired” both times and only one of the cylinders was loaded.
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