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mhan00 Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 33738
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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LakersMD wrote: | Second time this season his end of game situational awareness has cost them. He’s got to get better there. |
I have to think JJ is trying to develop Max, because otherwise I can't imagine why you would ever have Max in bound the ball. He is clueless when he has to make a more complicated decision than shoot/attack the close out off the catch. Just sucks it cost us a chance to win this game after we fought so hard to get back into it. The team other than AD and LBJ also has to freaking rebound. |
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MJST Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 29211
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Max got us back into it with his defense. Was needed. His inbounds pass doesn't change that. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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mhan00 Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 33738
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | Max got us back into it with his defense. Was needed. His inbounds pass doesn't change that. |
No doubt. |
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Theseus Franchise Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 15870
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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One of the brighter spots for us tonight. When we started out playing poorly, he was playing well. This team is nearly impossible to play against with the way the officials were calling the game.
They were giving houston screeners a half step into their screens but then calling you for brush contact on the shooter coming off of the screen. Imagine dealing with that at any level.
But he played well. He was switching really well. Even fronted the post very well on a number of possessions. There is one play in particular I can recall where he caused a turnover when he switched onto Sengun.
Offensively he moved well without the ball, and had back to back plays where he got open for layups. Which was badly needed when we were shooting so poorly. |
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lakerfansd Star Player


Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 2020
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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One of the few players on our team that can score and defend. Glad we didn't trade him away. |
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TMG Star Player

Joined: 02 Jan 2019 Posts: 9614
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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JJ a (bleep) for letting max take the inbounds when you've got Lebron.
Play should have been Lebron for the inbounds and find AR to make a play. |
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miggz23 Star Player

Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 9005
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Played well tonight he just needs to keep growing.
Not really going to blame him at that inbound pass as he should have never been in that position. But it was good learning lesson for him.
I put that on JJ since they were just trying to get the ball to Lebron there. Should have had AD or AR inbound the ball, and could have ran some high screen action with either one of those guys. |
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Kblo247! Star Player

Joined: 05 Oct 2015 Posts: 5447
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Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2025 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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miggz23 wrote: | Played well tonight he just needs to keep growing.
Not really going to blame him at that inbound pass as he should have never been in that position. But it was good learning lesson for him.
I put that on JJ since they were just trying to get the ball to Lebron there. Should have had AD or AR inbound the ball, and could have ran some high screen action with either one of those guys. |
The refs could’ve called Brons timeout too he called before Max goofed as well
But I’m not mad at max. He goofed in Atlanta not knowing foul counts and limits and responded by playing well after that. It’s a learning error he can grow from based on his last instance |
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LakersMD Star Player

Joined: 27 Jun 2003 Posts: 8189
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Some guy posted interesting lineup data on Bluesky:
Quote: | As a Max Christie skeptic, it’s been impressive watching his development since joining the starters
Data Since 12/15/24
AR/Max/LBJ/Rui/AD
107mins
100.9 DRtg
+7.5 NET
AR/Max/Knecht/Rui/AD
20mins
117.1 DRtg
+39 NET
AR/Max/LBJ/DFS/AD
15mins
90.6 DRtg
+57.7 NET
Real rotational player for $8mil |
Adds some context for the one poster who just looks at his counting stats. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player


Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21781 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:10 am Post subject: |
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mhan00 wrote: | MJST wrote: | Max got us back into it with his defense. Was needed. His inbounds pass doesn't change that. |
No doubt. |
Agree. |
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defense Retired Number

Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 41295
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I thought he really battled defensively. The guy is becoming a legit 2-way |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:25 am Post subject: |
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LakersMD wrote: | Second time this season his end of game situational awareness has cost them. He’s got to get better there. |
I'm remembering last year when AR at least twice over-helped on drives at the end of game, giving up an open 3 which cost the Lakers a win. One of them was against the Mavs.
Christie just seems like a relatively unintuitive player and we're gonna have to accept growing pains |
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mad55557777 Franchise Player

Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 24689
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:36 am Post subject: |
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LakersMD wrote: | Some guy posted interesting lineup data on Bluesky:
Quote: | As a Max Christie skeptic, it’s been impressive watching his development since joining the starters
Data Since 12/15/24
AR/Max/LBJ/Rui/AD
107mins
100.9 DRtg
+7.5 NET
AR/Max/Knecht/Rui/AD
20mins
117.1 DRtg
+39 NET
AR/Max/LBJ/DFS/AD
15mins
90.6 DRtg
+57.7 NET
Real rotational player for $8mil |
Adds some context for the one poster who just looks at his counting stats. |
another reason we will see DFS starting soon. |
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Brawn13 Star Player

Joined: 30 Jan 2019 Posts: 4796
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:39 am Post subject: |
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I don’t blame Max at the end there, I think we all collectively were flabbergasted when JJ put him in that spot to begin with. |
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miggz23 Star Player

Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 9005
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:41 am Post subject: |
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LakersMD wrote: | Some guy posted interesting lineup data on Bluesky:
Quote: | As a Max Christie skeptic, it’s been impressive watching his development since joining the starters
Data Since 12/15/24
AR/Max/LBJ/Rui/AD
107mins
100.9 DRtg
+7.5 NET
AR/Max/Knecht/Rui/AD
20mins
117.1 DRtg
+39 NET
AR/Max/LBJ/DFS/AD
15mins
90.6 DRtg
+57.7 NET
Real rotational player for $8mil |
Adds some context for the one poster who just looks at his counting stats. |
It be interesting to see the non AD and AR minutes with only Lebron in the line-up. I think thats where they struggle the most. |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 11:56 am Post subject: |
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mad55557777 wrote: | LakersMD wrote: | Some guy posted interesting lineup data on Bluesky:
Quote: | As a Max Christie skeptic, it’s been impressive watching his development since joining the starters
Data Since 12/15/24
AR/Max/LBJ/Rui/AD
107mins
100.9 DRtg
+7.5 NET
AR/Max/Knecht/Rui/AD
20mins
117.1 DRtg
+39 NET
AR/Max/LBJ/DFS/AD
15mins
90.6 DRtg
+57.7 NET
Real rotational player for $8mil |
Adds some context for the one poster who just looks at his counting stats. |
another reason we will see DFS starting soon. |
tiny sample tbh |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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miggz23 wrote: |
It be interesting to see the non AD and AR minutes with only Lebron in the line-up. I think thats where they struggle the most. |
The Lakers were usually good with LeBron/DLO pairings, so I used NBAWowy to see what the no-AD/AR/DLO minutes look like for LeBron only lineups.
They are -60 in 133 possessions, which is a comical -45 net rating. 87 offensive rating, 132 defensive rating.
And in case you're curious: with DFS also in the lineup, they are -12 in 27 possessions, much smaller sample size, but yeah, 78 ORTG and 122 DRTG, -44 net rating. It doesn't seem like DFS helps much there. |
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BILBJH Star Player

Joined: 23 Jul 2020 Posts: 5840
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Brawn13 wrote: | I don’t blame Max at the end there, I think we all collectively were flabbergasted when JJ put him in that spot to begin with. |
VanVleet's a quick, clever player, but it's not rocket science to jump the passing lanes headed towards LeBron.
One of the big problems with the Lakers offense is you know the ball is always going to AD or Bron.
It's a shock when it goes to someone like Knecht.
If you are defending the Lakers and just jump those lanes heading towards those players, you are going to get a lot of easy transition baskets. |
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miggz23 Star Player

Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 9005
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | miggz23 wrote: |
It be interesting to see the non AD and AR minutes with only Lebron in the line-up. I think thats where they struggle the most. |
The Lakers were usually good with LeBron/DLO pairings, so I used NBAWowy to see what the no-AD/AR/DLO minutes look like for LeBron only lineups.
They are -60 in 133 possessions, which is a comical -45 net rating. 87 offensive rating, 132 defensive rating.
And in case you're curious: with DFS also in the lineup, they are -12 in 27 possessions, much smaller sample size, but yeah, 78 ORTG and 122 DRTG, -44 net rating. It doesn't seem like DFS helps much there. |
Yea I think not a coincidence specially with how inconsistent the bench has been or the Lebron unit minutes which usually plays the beginning of the 2nd and 4th quarter.
I think JJ will have to find some balance where he has 2 of Lebron/AD/AR almost at all times.
I would guess the line-up that gave up the big lead to start the 4th has a small sample size also Hayes/Lebron/Rui/Knecht/Max |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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^ FWIW, the LeBron/DLO without AR/AD lineups were -10 in 338 possessions (111.5 ORTG, 114.4 DRTG). Still not good, but the Lakers' overall net rating is -1.6 and even LeBron/AD overall together are -2.5.
The problem appears to be LeBron ball lineups without another perimeter player, which is a big problem now that we got rid of DLO |
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manlisten Star Player

Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 4226
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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LeBron/AD/Gabe actually have a better net rating than LeBron/AD/D'lo. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Don't think that's true, just checked LeBron/AD/Gabe/no DLO are -1 in 219 possessions, LeBron/AD/DLO/no Gabe are +3 in 459 possessions
Interestingly the DLO configuration's problem is they're -22 in 64 possessions in a version with Knecht/Rui, the season's opening starting lineup was actually +7 in net rating, though in part this was just good shooting luck (the opposing teams shot 31% from 3, the Lakers shot 33% from 3... both being unsustainably low numbers in a bigger sample size)
By and large though your general point is correct, Vincent/LeBron/AD works pretty ok. And I'd also note that these minutes are almost all with AR resting, whereas DLO was playing with and against starters when he had those minutes (make what you will of that)
One thing to note:
LeBron/Vincent/no AR/no AD => -38 in 85 possessions (95 ORTG, 136 DRTG). That 136 DRTG is with the opponetns shooting just 34% from 3 so it's not like a hot shooting issue. Those lineups just suck
Last edited by tox on Mon Jan 06, 2025 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mhan00 Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 33738
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Kblo247! wrote: | miggz23 wrote: | Played well tonight he just needs to keep growing.
Not really going to blame him at that inbound pass as he should have never been in that position. But it was good learning lesson for him.
I put that on JJ since they were just trying to get the ball to Lebron there. Should have had AD or AR inbound the ball, and could have ran some high screen action with either one of those guys. |
The refs could’ve called Brons timeout too he called before Max goofed as well
But I’m not mad at max. He goofed in Atlanta not knowing foul counts and limits and responded by playing well after that. It’s a learning error he can grow from based on his last instance |
Meh. I was far more pissed at the bs offensive fouls they called. The sideline ref isn’t going to be looking at Lebron in that situation. He’s doing a five second count and needs to be looking at Max to see when he releases the ball. Max was the one who was looking right at Lebron and could see him gesturing for a TO because the pass was t there, and he tried to force it anyway. Max just isn’t ready to be making those decisions. He’s consistently been very very very bad at them thus far in his career. I have to think JJ is a big believer in him and is forcing him in these situations to get him to learn, because otherwise Max should never be out in the position he was in. |
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manlisten Star Player

Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 4226
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | Don't think that's true, just checked LeBron/AD/Gabe/no DLO are -1 in 219 possessions, LeBron/AD/DLO/no Gabe are +3 in 459 possessions
Interestingly the DLO configuration's problem is they're -22 in 64 possessions in a version with Knecht/Rui, the season's opening starting lineup was actually +7 in net rating, though in part this was just good shooting luck (the opposing teams shot 31% from 3, the Lakers shot 33% from 3... both being unsustainably low numbers in a bigger sample size)
By and large though your general point is correct, Vincent/LeBron/AD works pretty ok. And I'd also note that these minutes are almost all with AR resting, whereas DLO was playing with and against starters when he had those minutes (make what you will of that)
One thing to note:
LeBron/Vincent/no AR/no AD => -38 in 85 possessions (95 ORTG, 136 DRTG). That 136 DRTG is with the opponetns shooting just 34% from 3 so it's not like a hot shooting issue. Those lineups just suck |
Per nba.com Bron/AD/Gabe is -1.9 in 24 games/145 minutes vs Bron/AD/D'lo at -3.4 in 25/257. The Gabe trio jumps up to 6.8 in December when Gabe started showing a pulse in 8 games/69 minutes. The D'lo trio fell to -23.8 in 7/57 for December. The discrepancy is probably because I'm using 3 man lineups that likely have some combo of D'lo+Gabe baked in. And interestingly those Knecht/Rui lineups with Gabe and no D'lo are 20.3 in 3/27. Those no AD lineups tell me a defensive backup 5 is maybe the biggest need. _________________ It was reminiscent of one of those Most Interesting Man in the World advertisements: "I don't always shoot 6-for-28 from the field, but when I do, I become the youngest player in league history to score 28,000 career points." |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20390
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Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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manlisten wrote: | tox wrote: | Don't think that's true, just checked LeBron/AD/Gabe/no DLO are -1 in 219 possessions, LeBron/AD/DLO/no Gabe are +3 in 459 possessions
Interestingly the DLO configuration's problem is they're -22 in 64 possessions in a version with Knecht/Rui, the season's opening starting lineup was actually +7 in net rating, though in part this was just good shooting luck (the opposing teams shot 31% from 3, the Lakers shot 33% from 3... both being unsustainably low numbers in a bigger sample size)
By and large though your general point is correct, Vincent/LeBron/AD works pretty ok. And I'd also note that these minutes are almost all with AR resting, whereas DLO was playing with and against starters when he had those minutes (make what you will of that)
One thing to note:
LeBron/Vincent/no AR/no AD => -38 in 85 possessions (95 ORTG, 136 DRTG). That 136 DRTG is with the opponetns shooting just 34% from 3 so it's not like a hot shooting issue. Those lineups just suck |
Per nba.com Bron/AD/Gabe is -1.9 in 24 games/145 minutes vs Bron/AD/D'lo at -3.4 in 25/257. The Gabe trio jumps up to 6.8 in December when Gabe started showing a pulse in 8 games/69 minutes. The D'lo trio fell to -23.8 in 7/57 for December. The discrepancy is probably because I'm using 3 man lineups that likely have some combo of D'lo+Gabe baked in. And interestingly those Knecht/Rui lineups with Gabe and no D'lo are 20.3 in 3/27. Those no AD lineups tell me a defensive backup 5 is maybe the biggest need. |
I'm not sure what the discrepancy is in our sources. I'd lean towards nba.com numbers being right, thanks for the info. I guess this isn't much consolation since the numbers are worse in reality than what my source was telling me (even if in relative terms of the Vincent vs. DLO groupings changed) |
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