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JUST-MING
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:10 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:14 am    Post subject:

^JM: think about it along the lines of keeping DLo till a better option comes around (see dubs trading him for Wiggins later in the year after the double S&ts of KD & DLo). However unlike the dubs, we won’t be pressed in working around the hard cap during the season if we retain him to trade for another day (ie S&t2bmade).

I’m not a fan of maxing out DLo either, but him at 25-30m is a good enough deal to still entice others willing to trade for his services/contract.
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Last edited by vasashi17+ on Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:16 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.

warriors, Bucks, Clippers are not in the playoffs?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:32 am    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
@CRoost: absolutely you do it if it’s SGA or a young baller. But when it comes to Ky or Harden, it’s harder to justify bringing them in maxed out and under hard capped conditions. For instance, bringing in SGA via trade wouldn’t trigger the hardcap so you can still maneuver your books accordingly in adding depth via our own FA retention. With Ky/Harden on an incoming S&t, Mo, Rui, Beas and Walker are most likely cap casualties and we wound be hard pressed to even keep Austin if the numbers aren’t right.

It’s easier to stomach their incoming S&ts @ sub-max price points. I’m a huge fan of Ky’s personally, but @ the max with the apron triggered, it’s hard for me to justify it.

That being said, I do think the Lakers consider intentionally triggering the hard cap so that they limit their team spending. It’s a built in justification for them to do so in order to limit their repeater tax payment. And personally, I don’t want to see it. I want ownership to spend towards FA retention so that we can flip them later as assets instead of just letting another round of our FAs walk due nothing.


Reaves will start and play over 30 minutes so Beasley is expendable to me. Others ain’t exactly a difference makers so I have no qualms about letting them go. The only way to keep this roster (Don’t get me wrong, I like the depth too) is to Jennie fork over $100 million on tax hit or at least 6 of them are willingly to take a paycut. Something has to give but there are too many moving parts to make it happen. Maybe Pelinka can make it possible but offering them longer deal , less annually and more guaranteed money and convince Jennie. But how about other teams offering more. If Jennie let Caruso walk, what are the chances that she will keep those aforementioned guys.

I were Jennie, I’ll take the hard capped route too. Relying on Lebron and Ad is like building a house of cards . I believed Westbrook idea is a good plan, not just the right player. Kyrie is the right player, just mentally handicapped. But if you gonna go all in the next 2 years, you gotta have an impact player who is dynamic enough to pull that gravity that can carry a team with or without Lebron and AD.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:38 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.


He is a precursor to a trade. We have to keep him because at the very least, he is an enticing asset and his salary is a good trade ballast. He’s not marginall, I believe he is very good player especially for this team. But he will be a liability comes playoff.


Last edited by CRoost on Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:46 am    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.




The point, to me, is pretty basic: In order to be a competitive team, you need enough talent. And talent costs money.

When you get down to specific players, people will always debate how much they are worth. People will go round and round on whether DLo is worth $20 million a year or $30 million a year. You can easily make a case for and against any figure depending on what criteria you want to use.

It's up to the team to make smart decisions and dole out its payroll in the most impactful way. Jeanie will have to decide how much, if any, tax she and her family are willing to pay. If anyone here thinks they know what that figure is, I would say they are kidding themselves.

My guess (and this is just my guess) is: Lebron, AD, DLo, Vandy, Rui, Gabriel and Christie will be on the team next year. Everyone else is a question mark. The Lakers will pay some tax, but they will also draw financial lines. The line isn't set in stone at this point, but will be influenced by how players do in the playoffs, assuming we make the playoffs.

I fully acknowledge that is just my guess, based on no more information than everyone else here has, and I could end up being completely wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:10 am    Post subject:

^CR: Im not really disagreeing with you. I just want to exploit the Bron/AD win-dow while we still can (or gulp, if we still can).

Sample size is small and alot of fans like what they see after our deadline deals. We got better parts and more flex for sure, but it does say something that our schedule since the trade deadline has been one of the easier ones in the league. We been without some of our main guys, but so too have our ops during this recent run. Our defense is being applauded and as we saw with Htown, it’s mainly been AD holding it down for us. But again, we’re facing lesser talent so you would expect our D to look better than normal.

I’m not convinced that running it back will lead to true title contention next year. We still need better defensive elements to this team. AD, Reaves, Vando and to a lesser degree Mo are all we have. This is why I rather we target a 2way big to put next to AD. Have AD shed weight and rehab his injury to have him come back at the 4. Highlight dude as a defender more than an offensive weapon and our D could be lethal with AD patrolling the wings with a legit rim protector behind him. Our D would have stretched our title hopes myles longer (pause) had we addressed it before.

But times of the essence so exploit it ASAP before we no longer in a win-dow. A S&t can still be what the FO is aiming to do to trigger the hard cap, but if it’s for Ky, hopefully we can get him at a lower annual. That way, you can still make moves under the apron that would help us gain better title traction next year. But that still could be problematic. For instance…

1) Bron 47.6m
2) Ky 30m (via incoming S&t)
3) AD 40.6m
4) Myles 21m (via Beas, Mo, ‘23 1st rookie later in the year)
5) Reaves 12m (early bird max / ntpMLE)
6) Vando 4.7m
7) MaxC 1.7m
8) vet min 2.1m
9) vet min 2.1m
10) vet min 2.1m
11) vet min 2.1m
12) vet min 2.1m
13) vet min 2.1m
14) vet min 2.1m
= 172.3m in team salary with a 172m hard cap

So as you can see, even with having Ky/Harden come on a largely discounted 30m deal (their true maxes being 47.6m), it would be hard to trade for a 20m+ player later in the season while still remaining under the apron. And I’m fully aware that had we rostered Beas (16.5m), Mo (10.3m) and our 2023 1st (~3m) to trade for another day while having a S&t’d Ky on our books, we would have already breached the apron. But that’s just shows you even in shedding salary, it would be difficult to navigate under hardcap conditions.

However if we S&t2bmade DLo at 35mish during the offseason, to offload him later in the year (post Jan 15th), then we can move him for a player like Ky (that’s closer to his annual max) while also using our other would-be FAs had we not picked up options on them (ie Beas, Mo, Rui, etc) for a 20m-30mish player(s) that make us more legit title contenders.

The trade off would be, we run it back for half a season before flipping them for players we wanted to bring in from the jump, but couldn’t due to the hard cap.

Hope that makes sense. But I also recognize that this insinuates management willing to spend on a hefty tax bill.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:09 am    Post subject:

This falls under the fat chance bin but the Mavs have until 6/30 to ink Kyrie to an extension right? Hypothetically (not advocating it but going to duck anyway), we could avoid triggering the hard cap if the Mavs do an extend-and-trade instead right? Obviously it would require a lot of unlikely things to fall in place but I'm just curious.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:13 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.

warriors, Bucks, Clippers are not in the playoffs?


To be fair, there are more playoff teams that aren't paying the repeater tax. A lot of them achieve this by drafting well and milking rookie scale salaries. The Lakers routinely forfeit that opportunity by trading all their draft prospects and assets for established talent. With all the revenue they make considering their market, you could argue paying the tax comes with the territory.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:38 am    Post subject:

There is another back to back coming up where AD may sit before Bamba comes back. Why haven’t we received an announcement that Ibaka has been signed to a 10-day?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:38 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Brooklyn Nets forward Ben Simmons and Klutch Sports have mutually decided to part ways, sources told ESPN. Simmons had been represented by Klutch since he came into the NBA as the No. 1 pick in 2016. The agency negotiated his five-year $177 million extension in 2019.

Quote:
Simmons and Klutch decided to part ways in a conversation this week. “He just needed a fresh start,” according to a source.

https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/1636811817556254720
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:42 am    Post subject:

Lakersfan1211 wrote:
Quote:
Brooklyn Nets forward Ben Simmons and Klutch Sports have mutually decided to part ways, sources told ESPN. Simmons had been represented by Klutch since he came into the NBA as the No. 1 pick in 2016. The agency negotiated his five-year $177 million extension in 2019.

Quote:
Simmons and Klutch decided to part ways in a conversation this week. “He just needed a fresh start,” according to a source.

https://twitter.com/ramonashelburne/status/1636811817556254720


Lebron distancing himself from Simmons, guy may be alot of things but when it comes to business he doesn’t mess around
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:45 am    Post subject:

Klutch dropped Ben. Pretty obvious…he’s bad for business.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:03 pm    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
This falls under the fat chance bin but the Mavs have until 6/30 to ink Kyrie to an extension right? Hypothetically (not advocating it but going to duck anyway), we could avoid triggering the hard cap if the Mavs do an extend-and-trade instead right? Obviously it would require a lot of unlikely things to fall in place but I'm just curious.


Check out the big brains on G haha. Nice thought bro and you had me doing a double take, but unfortunately an E&T is not allowed after the season (ie post last day of regularSZN; not to be confused with existing contracts that are allowed to be traded post regularSZN as long as both, or all, trading teams are disqualified from postseason play; so hypothetically Beas’s team option can be exercised and traded before June 30th, upon season’s end).

Quote:
Coon: A player cannot be traded in an extend-and-trade after the season (for example, on draft day) in the last season of his contract, or in any season that might be the last season due to an option or ETO.


gng930 wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.

warriors, Bucks, Clippers are not in the playoffs?


To be fair, there are more playoff teams that aren't paying the repeater tax. A lot of them achieve this by drafting well and milking rookie scale salaries. The Lakers routinely forfeit that opportunity by trading all their draft prospects and assets for established talent. With all the revenue they make considering their market, you could argue paying the tax comes with the territory.


Yep!

And if ownership has it where you can’t spend top dollar, where you need quality minimums to add to the roster, you better exploit all your resources.

This FO been failing to utilize resources towards addressing the margins, especially when the big picture plan was to field top heavy talent. #MarginalizingTheMargins

If you gonna load up your cap sheet with 3 max guys, better make those minimum deals count. For example, Austin about to be a FA and cost a pretty penny to retain. But it was all so unnecessary had we used the remaining prorated mMLE to get dude on a 3yr deal instead.

Meanwhile other teams using their remaining prorated fMLE to get 4yr RoS deals completed.

Quote:
Michael Scotto @MikeAScotto
The Washington Wizards have signed Xavier Cooks to a four-year, $6.1 million deal, league sources told @hoopshype. The deal is guaranteed the rest of this season and the 2023-24 season, is non-guaranteed for the 2024-25 season, and includes a team option for the 2025-26 season.

Chase Hughes: The Wizards have made the Xavier Cooks signing official now that he is done leading the Sydney Kings to the NBL title. – via Twitter ChaseHughesNBCS


I guess you gotta be a wizard to pull this cap sh!t off!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject:

Vas, I think we work the tax margins so closely that doing the 3+ year minimum level salaries are thought to be costly. You need room or an exception, which makes it harder to stick short term with whomever you give the bulk of it to (this year LW4).

You also normally have to guarantee the upcoming year, which is taxed differently than a true minimum deal at two or less years. The difference should be negligible but I don't think it is seen that way to our ownership. That's penny poor of course because it's going to cost them five fold just with Austin.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
ESPN Sources: 20 NBA teams received payment in the league's revenue sharing plan for the 2021-2022 season -- with Pacers getting the largest share at $42.2M. Warriors made highest contribution to pool at $45M. Lakers paid ($42.8M), Knicks ($20.9M), Celtics ($15.7M), Bulls ($10M).

-Woj
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:53 pm    Post subject:

^LF: I would refute you on that since imho the cost is trivial, but then again we not signing anyone to that 15th roster spot with the meager cost being 900k - 1.1m…so those margin calls stay shoddy AF.

It’s still wild to me that if your end game is 3max players and your ownership group doesn’t want to spend in excess towards the roster outside those 3, at the very minimum you would do your due diligence to ACknowledge those lower signings and make it count in developing them as assets, instead of continually turning the roster over every year. #MinimumExpectations
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:02 pm    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.

warriors, Bucks, Clippers are not in the playoffs?


To be fair, there are more playoff teams that aren't paying the repeater tax. A lot of them achieve this by drafting well and milking rookie scale salaries. The Lakers routinely forfeit that opportunity by trading all their draft prospects and assets for established talent. With all the revenue they make considering their market, you could argue paying the tax comes with the territory.

Lakers traded their assets for super stars and super stars takes up more cap space, if Jeanie doesn’t want to pay tax, don’t trade for the super stars. On the other side, we couldn’t even afford to keep our past lottery picks at their present value. Lakers are second in NBA in revenue, then operate the team like it
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:07 pm    Post subject:

Lakersfan1211 wrote:
Quote:
ESPN Sources: 20 NBA teams received payment in the league's revenue sharing plan for the 2021-2022 season -- with Pacers getting the largest share at $42.2M. Warriors made highest contribution to pool at $45M. Lakers paid ($42.8M), Knicks ($20.9M), Celtics ($15.7M), Bulls ($10M).

-Woj


how much Clippers donate?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Lakersfan1211 wrote:
Quote:
ESPN Sources: 20 NBA teams received payment in the league's revenue sharing plan for the 2021-2022 season -- with Pacers getting the largest share at $42.2M. Warriors made highest contribution to pool at $45M. Lakers paid ($42.8M), Knicks ($20.9M), Celtics ($15.7M), Bulls ($10M).

There are 10 teams contributing $163.6M to the 2021-2022 revenue sharing receipts, including Dallas ($8.8M), Philadelphia ($6.4M), Miami ($5.1M), Clippers ($5M) and Nets ($3M).

Also receiving revenue sharing payments for 2021-2022 include Denver ($35.5M), Portland ($32M), Charlotte ($31.6M), Sacramento ($29.9M), New Orleans ($28.9M), Memphis ($28M), San Antonio ($26.3M), Minnesota ($25.6M), Orlando ($23.4M), Detroit ($21.5M, Cleveland ($19.9M). OKC ($17.5M), Utah ($11.7M), Atlanta ($10.8M), Washington ($7.2M), Milwaukee ($6.7M), Toronto ($2.1M), Phoenix ($1.6M), Houston ($931K).

Those 20 teams are sharing $404.1 million in revenue sharing contributions for 2021-2022, according to a memo shared with teams.


-Woj


You know that narrative where we demand ownership to spend on our team, but follow it up by saying “it ain’t our money tho”…uh, yeah it is haha!

Pay our players/assets, pay the tax and give us the fans our money’s worth.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:22 pm    Post subject:

Dennis100mtrash wrote:
Lakersfan1211 wrote:
Quote:
ESPN Sources: 20 NBA teams received payment in the league's revenue sharing plan for the 2021-2022 season -- with Pacers getting the largest share at $42.2M. Warriors made highest contribution to pool at $45M. Lakers paid ($42.8M), Knicks ($20.9M), Celtics ($15.7M), Bulls ($10M).

-Woj


how much Clippers donate?


Quote:
There are 10 teams contributing $163.6M to the 2021-2022 revenue sharing receipts, including Dallas ($8.8M), Philadelphia ($6.4M), Miami ($5.1M), Clippers ($5M) and Nets ($3M).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:28 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Ben Simmons is expected to hire veteran agent Bernie Lee, who has a long history of guiding clients through difficult spots, sources said. Lee also reps Jimmy Butler, Justin Holiday and Kris Dunn, among other players.

https://twitter.com/JonKrawczynski/status/1636839841596882951
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:05 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
gng930 wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:

repeater tax is nothing special, you can be a repeater tax team and pay less taxes than this year (just an example), don't make it sound like Repeater tax is death penalty or something, a few teams will be paying it next season.


Almost every team in the playoffs will not be paying repeater tax, so it isn’t a competitive advantage either. Overpaying for marginal players is not exactly a winning formula.

Paying Dangelo Russell $30 million isn’t going to make him a better player.

warriors, Bucks, Clippers are not in the playoffs?


To be fair, there are more playoff teams that aren't paying the repeater tax. A lot of them achieve this by drafting well and milking rookie scale salaries. The Lakers routinely forfeit that opportunity by trading all their draft prospects and assets for established talent. With all the revenue they make considering their market, you could argue paying the tax comes with the territory.

Lakers traded their assets for super stars and super stars takes up more cap space, if Jeanie doesn’t want to pay tax, don’t trade for the super stars. On the other side, we couldn’t even afford to keep our past lottery picks at their present value. Lakers are second in NBA in revenue, then operate the team like it


Yup, can't always have your cake and eat it too.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:15 pm    Post subject:

Lakersfan1211 wrote:
Quote:
Ben Simmons is expected to hire veteran agent Bernie Lee, who has a long history of guiding clients through difficult spots, sources said. Lee also reps Jimmy Butler, Justin Holiday and Kris Dunn, among other players.

https://twitter.com/JonKrawczynski/status/1636839841596882951


Hopefully it works out for Ben Simmons.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:32 pm    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
Meanwhile other teams using their remaining prorated fMLE to get 4yr RoS deals completed.

Quote:
Michael Scotto @MikeAScotto
The Washington Wizards have signed Xavier Cooks to a four-year, $6.1 million deal, league sources told @hoopshype. The deal is guaranteed the rest of this season and the 2023-24 season, is non-guaranteed for the 2024-25 season, and includes a team option for the 2025-26 season.

Chase Hughes: The Wizards have made the Xavier Cooks signing official now that he is done leading the Sydney Kings to the NBL title. – via Twitter ChaseHughesNBCS


I guess you gotta be a wizard to pull this cap sh!t off!


We've been through this a bunch of times. So the Wizards just got this guy to agree to a longer deal. Great, but let's take a closer look. He's a 27 year old player who was undrafted out of college and who wound up playing in Australia. He just got a guaranteed contract to play in the NBA. If he turns out to be worth more than the minimum, it's a good deal for the Wizards. If he turns out to be, well, what you would expect from an undrafted 27 year old who has developed a taste for Vegemite, he just got a good deal. They can't cut him for a year. Time will tell whether the Washington GM is wearing a Wizard's cap or a dunce cap.
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