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32
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 Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. We got Bamba and three second round picks in that trade.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| andree wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Ok, Vas! Can we see an actual numbers for next season contracts, assuming everybody stays (one with and one without Mo Bamba, sub a min salary big; maybe another one without Mo/Beasley and get a Naz Reid or C.Wood?)) |
Here’s a hypothetical cap sheet under the new Upper Limit Apron from the Cap Q&A thread:
| Quote: | 1. Bron 47.6m
2. AD 40.6m
3. DLo 25m (via full bird for up to a 5yr deal)
4. Beas 16.5m (via team option)
5. Reaves 11.9m (via early bird max for up to a 4yr deal)
6. Mo 10.3m (via not waiving his nonguaranteed deal)
7. Rui 10m (via full bird for up to a 5yr deal)
8. tpMLE player 6.1m (Schro?? majority of MLE used for up to a 3yr deal)
9. Vando 4.7m
10. MaxC 1.7m
11. 2023 1st pick swap ~3m
12. 2023 2nd 1.1m* (minority of MLE used for up to a 3yr deal)
13. Vet min (Gabriel??) 2.1m
14. Vet min (TBJr??) 2.1m
*rookie min counts as 2.1m (2yr seasoned vet min) towards cap apron math
= 182.7m in team salary
= 18.7m above 165m tax line
= 1.2m breach of 2nd apron of 182.5m; meaning that 6.1m portion of the tpMLE used on Schro (or whomever) needs to be cut down by at least 1.2m to 4.9m or our other retained FAs need to take a haircut off their deals
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@AH: I assume the new trade exemptions for lower/mid spending teams are going to be similar to the current favorable trade conditions that only non-tax paying teams can utilize:
175% + 100k for outgoing salary up to 6.5m amount
5m + outgoing salary for outgoing 6.6m to 19.5m amount
125% + 100k for outgoing 19.6m+ amount
Currently all trades for tax payer teams are the last condition above of 125% + 100k of the outgoing salary amount. So there would be an arbitrary team salary amount that would be met for lower/mid spenders to have those favorable trade conditions/exemptions apply.
Note: It’s determined if you are a tax payer or not depending on the team salary post trade. |
Maybe I am missing something, but with your calculations Lakers will breach with 0,2m (not 1.2m) the 2nd apron of 182.5m.
The best solution would be for Beasley and Bamba to renounce of their options and sign for less salary for more years. I believe it`s more than doable.
I would give Schröder those 6.1m in a heartbeat. And I would keep this team intact. The roster is balanced and has enough depth. I would love to see what this roster can do with a proper training camp and a season to gel. |
Yeah sorry, I wasn’t more clear about it. The rookie min for our 2023 2nd rounder would be 1.1m towards team salary, but count as 2.1m (2 seasoned vet) towards apron/tax math.
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JUST-MING
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Shams tweets that all-NBA selections will be positionless, I assume starting with next year, since he said in the new CBA. |
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Megaton
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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That was back in '17. Rich Paul supposedly told him to turn down 5 years/$80M from the Pistons because he thought KCP could get a max deal. If that really happened, it was KCP's Dennis Schroder moment. The Pistons renounced him. We bailed out Rich Paul by giving KCP a one year deal for $17M. A few years later, we gave him a contract that started at $12M. Two trades later, the Nuggets extended it.
Anyway, KCP is an interesting comparator for Beasley. KCP is the superior player now, but back when we gave KCP that contract in the offseason of '20, KCP's production level was comparable to Beasley's production level now (though they are different types of players).
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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KCP had value as a good defender, but had shot 32%, 34.5%, 31% and 35% from 3P in his four seasons with Pistons. He became a very good shooter from his Lakers stint onwards still didn't get close to 20 M per season which he turned down from Pistons. I think his market this summer in open market will be in 15 M range or maybe Nuggets will give him extra as they have his bird rights.
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epic_
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | Shams tweets that all-NBA selections will be positionless, I assume starting with next year, since he said in the new CBA. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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In other words, if you are cool with spending up the wazoo to try to win, the league will penalize you.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
ESPN Reporting with
@BobbyMarks42
: In new CBA, high-spending teams above a second-apron of luxury tax aren’t allowed to send cash in deals, trade first-round picks seven years away or sign players in the buyout market. |
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epic_
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | In other words, if you are cool with spending up the wazoo to try to win, the league will penalize you.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
ESPN Reporting with
@BobbyMarks42
: In new CBA, high-spending teams above a second-apron of luxury tax aren’t allowed to send cash in deals, trade first-round picks seven years away or sign players in the buyout market. |
Nice. 2 years too late. But nice.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | In other words, if you are cool with spending up the wazoo to try to win, the league will penalize you.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
ESPN Reporting with
@BobbyMarks42
: In new CBA, high-spending teams above a second-apron of luxury tax aren’t allowed to send cash in deals, trade first-round picks seven years away or sign players in the buyout market. |
Good. The luxury tax alone wasn't getting the job done. The union wouldn't agree to a hard cap. I had proposed some ideas like this as a compromise, so it gives me a cheap thrill of sorts to see it happening. Guys like Lacob and Ballmer were making a farce of the whole thing.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Megaton wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | Shams tweets that all-NBA selections will be positionless, I assume starting with next year, since he said in the new CBA. |
Don’t know how I feel about that. |
As a fan, I don't really like it. But I get it that things like all-NBA make a big financial difference to players.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | @AH: I assume the new trade exemptions for lower/mid spending teams are going to be similar to the current favorable trade conditions that only non-tax paying teams can utilize: |
That's possible, but I expect that there is a lot more in play than just an expansion of trade exceptions for low and medium payroll teams. In fact, I never heard anyone calling for this sort of change. Seriously, what's the purpose?
I doubt that the owners would have made an implicit threat of a lockout over any of the small potatoes stuff that has leaked out so far. I expect that the real battleground was the treatment of the expected new media rights deal. We may see a variety of changes to the structure of the CBA. We can only speculate until the parties work out the term sheet and more details emerge.
The information we got last night appears to be a controlled leak by the NBA/NBPA. It appears that the insiders all got the same information, possibly verbatim. Those "details" are a nothing burger. I will be surprised if the full terms of the agreement are not much more significant. But again, we can only speculate. |
Some better information leaks out:
| Quote: |
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
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1h
There will be new spending and trade opportunities for teams at the middle and lower spectrum of payrolls, including larger trade exceptions and new and expanded exceptions to the salary cap, sources said. |
So we may get an expanded MLE/BAE/Early Bird and so forth for the teams in the middle and lower tier, plus maybe new exceptions entirely. This is starting to make sense.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| JUST-MING wrote: | | So there is absolutely no competitive advantage to spending more money in luxury taxes to field a team. |
Not unless you draft well enough where player retention (higher extension rates) over a number of years start impacting your books.
Last I heard, our scouting team was decent.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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@AH: unless you misunderstood me, let me clarify that trade exceptions are the primary means of capped out teams making trades. A team with cap room, uses their space for trades, while a capped out team uses exceptions. Don’t confuse that with the TPE which is the 1yr tax-free credit that a capped out team can use as an exception towards a non-simultaneous trade.
The better trade exceptions in the current CBA were means of giving competitive balance towards teams not spending a premium in taxes. Non-tax teams had the better MLE value as well as more lax trade exceptions in place.
That same principle would apply towards teams that are now either upper limit tax spenders or more towards the lower median rate payer.
The new MLE values along with laxer trade rule exceptions will reflect this new change in the upcoming CBA. Current exceptions for non-taxpayers vs tax payers are the ones I provided earlier…
| Quote: | Non-taxpayer trade exceptions
175% of outgoing salary up to 6.5m amount + 100k
5m + outgoing salary in the amount 6.6m to 19.5m amount
125% of outgoing salary in the amount of 19.6m and above + 100k
VS
Taxpayer trade exceptions
125% of all outgoing salary amounts + 100k
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Sources: The NBA and NBPA have locked in salary cap smoothing of up to 10 percent increase through this new CBA, avoiding the cap spike that came with previous TV deal that shook up free agency. The league will sign a new media rights deal that starts in 2025.
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Current projections are 8.4% (ie 134m)
The 10% max allowed, would be 136m
Still we do not know if a new formula is being used to calculate the salary cap each year based off the BRI index. However if things remain similar, expect the cap to be set it’s that 136m mark soon.
Or, in order to help cap smoothing for byte next couple seasons before the TV deal kicks in, they could set next seasons cap higher than 136m and then base the 10% annual smoothing off that figure to impact the 2024/25 season, before the TV deal hits for the 2025/26 season.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | @AH: unless you misunderstood me, let me clarify that trade exceptions are the primary means of capped out teams making trades. A team with cap room, uses their space for trades, while a capped out team uses exceptions. Don’t confuse that with the TPE which is the 1yr tax-free credit that a capped out team can use as an exception towards a non-simultaneous trade. |
You're missing the point. The teams with low and medium payrolls don't need a bigger trade exception. I've never heard of someone like, say, the Spurs or the Grizzlies complaining that they would have made more trades if they could take in 140% instead of 125%. In fact, it's the exact opposite. It's the teams with large payrolls that would like to be able to take in 140%.
In fact, the only way this really makes sense is if the league anticipates that the new rules will make teams with large payrolls want to offload a lot of salary. They need a system that allows the small and medium payroll teams to be able to absorb the payroll if they are over the cap.
If my suspicion is correct, then the talk about new "trading opportunities" for small and medium payroll teams is just spin doctoring. But I stress, once again, that we're all just speculating. I could be completely missing the point of these controlled leaks.
The idea of expanded exceptions for the small and medium payroll teams makes a lot more sense. Imagine, for example, a system with three MLEs instead of two: a jumbo MLE for teams below a certain threshold, the current MLE for everyone else under the tax threshold, the taxpayer MLE for teams between the threshold and the second apron, and none at all for teams over the second apron. Or maybe the room exception gets jacked up. This is all just spit balling. We'll get more details soon enough.
You're right to talk about this using the structure of the current CBA (for example, the point at which taxpayer status is determined in the case of a trade). Until we know that something has been changed, it's reasonable to assume that it will continue. However, we are talking about negotiated contract terms, not laws of nature or physics. All of this stuff can get changed with the stroke of a pen (more likely, with someone accepting the changes in a redlined document, but the old school reference to a pen still sounds better). We may see all sorts of subtle changes to the rules.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Tim Bontemps
@TimBontemps
·
40m
In the new CBA, the luxury tax brackets will increase at the same rate as the cap does, sources told @BobbyMarks42 and me. Since the current luxury tax system was implemented in the 2011 CBA, the brackets had been fixed $5 million increments. Now they'll grow as the cap does. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
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1h
Sources: Additional salary-related changes in new CBA:
- 7.5 percent increase to the mid-level exception
- 30 percent increase to the room exception |
Hah. V+, I promise that I saw this only after I wrote my last response to you.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, I didn't see this one coming.
| Quote: | Shams Charania
@ShamsCharania
·
1h
Game changer: The league's new collective bargaining agreement will give players the ability to invest in NBA and WNBA teams, as well as promote and/or invest in sports betting and cannabis companies, sources tell
@TheAthletic
@Stadium
. |
How can a current player have an ownership interest in an NBA team? You can't be both labor and management. I have no idea how that will work. The WNBA is a different ballgame. That's a good idea. There are probably NBA players who would be interested in joining ownership groups.
The idea of having players doing commercials for betting companies, and even having partial ownership, is a little unnerving. This does not sound like a good idea, but I may just be too old school.
As for promoting or investing in cannibis companies, let the one-liners and memes commence.
Edit: I don't think that this was an April Fools joke, but if it was, Shams really got me.
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dfchang813
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| April fools man. |
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epic_
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Quote: | Sources: The NBA and NBPA have locked in salary cap smoothing of up to 10 percent increase through this new CBA, avoiding the cap spike that came with previous TV deal that shook up free agency. The league will sign a new media rights deal that starts in 2025.
|
Current projections are 8.4% (ie 134m)
The 10% max allowed, would be 136m
Still we do not know if a new formula is being used to calculate the salary cap each year based off the BRI index. However if things remain similar, expect the cap to be set it’s that 136m mark soon.
Or, in order to help cap smoothing for byte next couple seasons before the TV deal kicks in, they could set next seasons cap higher than 136m and then base the 10% annual smoothing off that figure to impact the 2024/25 season, before the TV deal hits for the 2025/26 season. |
Should have had that foresight to do so in 2016, so that fraud KD wouldn't have had any rings and that Warrior franchise would have only 1 chip the past decade. No KD probably means no Wiggins. Dangit. But if the Warriors don't have Wiggins then they lose to the Celtics. I guess them getting KD was the lesser of 2 evils.
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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@AH: I think we both agree on the exceptions element of our discussion, where they increase in quantity and even number. Shams tweet about 7.5% & 30% increases to certain exceptions makes that aspect of it clear & Woj did allude to new exceptions being made in his tweet…
| Quote: | Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
There will be new spending and trade opportunities for teams at the middle and lower spectrum of payrolls, including larger trade exceptions and new and expanded exceptions to the salary cap, sources said.
|
It’s also confirmed that once a team breaches the Upper Limit apron, they lose the tpMLE completely. So these exceptions help improve parity in the league by giving teams that are not loaded up on payroll and by correlation loaded up in talent, the ability to spend more and utilize more resources to compete against the heavy tax payers, who at some point (upper limits), can no longer even offer up a MLE deal.
Likewise, the ability to have less restrictions on trades will allow teams to trade for big money players/talent or even premium 2nd tier talent , that normally wouldn’t sign with that market as a free agent. The lower/mid spending teams might actually have ownership willing to spend, but have no takers either via free agency or players not listing that market/team in their trade demands.
With the ability to take on more inbound salary via lax trade exceptions, more lower spending teams will get closer to the median rather than the floor….and again tgat shoujd improve parity/competitive integrity around the league.
The fact that upper limit teams can no longer include distant picks, trade cash or conduct trades where incoming salary is greater than what they send outbound tells you enough that these changes were primarily made to give owners of lesser markets the ability to check some aspects of player empowerment.
For example, how can KD demand a trade to the Suns, if the Suns are already at the upper limit in spending. It’s not that BK is not trading him out of spite there (see Ky to us)…they are incapable of making such a trade with Phx unless Phx sheds tremendous salary in the trade.
So the days where star players demanding trades to teams where certain players/salaries can still remain and they team-up among one another, thereby possibly depreciating draft capital involved in the trade, could be over. Equal or greater salary needs to head the other way to truly salary match for a KD (40mish) type deal. The Suns can’t just send the bare minimum in salary matching anymore, sparing all their other max players to partner up KD with…they would have to send nearly equal or more outbound salary to BK in order to bring KD in under the new CBA.
Also consider that under the new CBA, we would not be able to trade Russ for a pair of premium paid role players. For example Russ’s 47.1m deal could have brought back as much as 58.9m in incoming salary. So theoretically, we could have traded dude for two players making nearly 30m each and have both the 2027 & 2029 1sts head to the other team under the current CBA. However, that would lead to more incoming salary for us (nearly 12m). So under the new CBA, that’s a violation if we’re already within the upper limits in spending (ie 17.5m above tax line). Also we would be unable to add the 2029 1st (ie can’t trade 1sts that are 7 years out) and wouldn’t be able to add trade cash to assist the other team in a buyout for Russ (ie salary dumping will become limited within the new CBA…since upper limit teams are also banned from signing buyout candidates on the cheap via vet mins).
So these new trade rules/exceptions just like the capped out team exceptions and the higher room exception for cap having teams improves collectively the league’s parity/competitive integrity imho. That leads to a better overall product that more eyeballs will watch and more bidders will enter to host in a new TV deal.
| Quote: | As a counter to those spending limitations, the new CBA focuses largely on increasing opportunities for the vast majority of teams – both above and below the salary cap.
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Last edited by vasashi17+ on Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:30 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | Quote: | Sources: The NBA and NBPA have locked in salary cap smoothing of up to 10 percent increase through this new CBA, avoiding the cap spike that came with previous TV deal that shook up free agency. The league will sign a new media rights deal that starts in 2025.
|
Current projections are 8.4% (ie 134m)
The 10% max allowed, would be 136m
Still we do not know if a new formula is being used to calculate the salary cap each year based off the BRI index. However if things remain similar, expect the cap to be set it’s that 136m mark soon.
Or, in order to help cap smoothing for byte next couple seasons before the TV deal kicks in, they could set next seasons cap higher than 136m and then base the 10% annual smoothing off that figure to impact the 2024/25 season, before the TV deal hits for the 2025/26 season. |
Should have had that foresight to do so in 2016, so that fraud KD wouldn't have had any rings and that Warrior franchise would have only 1 chip the past decade. No KD probably means no Wiggins. Dangit. But if the Warriors don't have Wiggins then they lose to the Celtics. I guess them getting KD was the lesser of 2 evils. |
Oh they had the foresight…they just chose to let it happen still 🤦🏻♂️
This is from 2014…
| Quote: | Zach Lowe of Grantland:
Executives on lots of teams have gotten the sense from the league office that the NBA will try to smooth the increase of the cap level to minimize the impact of any massive one-year jump in revenue. Exactly how it would do that is unclear.
The league’s specific plan for smoothing out the cap increase is unclear, and in the end, it may opt against doing so at all. The players will receive their guaranteed 50 percent share of revenues regardless of any engineering.
https://nba.nbcsports.com/2014/07/25/report-nba-wants-to-avoid-massive-salary-cap-spike/
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | In other words, if you are cool with spending up the wazoo to try to win, the league will penalize you.
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That's one way of putting it. Another is the league wants to limit the advantage of billionaires who are willing/able to spend more than other owners. As a fan, I don't have a problem with that.
I don't think, say, the Clippers should have a lot of advantages in adding talent over other teams simply because the team was bought by a guy who made $100 billion off Microsoft and he doesn't care if he loses money on the team. |
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