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vasashi17+
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I think the issue is Rob didn't really get active in looking for a big UNTIL he traded AD. Once he knew for sure AD was out, and he had Luka, only then did he start to really get active.
Then the only really solid deal he seemed to like was for an oft injured big.
I'm sure if he could he would at least add a Lively/Gafford level big for Luka/Lebron. I just don't think they realised Mark Williams was a bad investment until it was too late to make another deal.
Hopefully it won't bite us in the butt. The team is real close to a title team. West is wide open. |
You're ignoring some key factors. Getting a C has been top of mind for a while.
1) reportedly, we had a deal in place in summer of 21 to acquire Myles Turner & Buddy Hield before we (inexplicably) pivoted to WB;
2) Lakers have grabbed almost every big man experiment they could since 2020 (DH, DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol, Jay Huff, Wenyen Gabriel, Thomas Bryant, Mo Bamba, Trezz, Andre Drummond, Tristan Thompson, Colin Castleton, Armel Traore, Christian Koloko, Moses Brown, Trey Jemison and 3-4 other guys I don't remember);
3) Lakers reportedly made offers to Detroit, Brooklyn and one other team for bigs before Charlotte said "yes" for Mark Williams.
The realities are:
A) the other team has to accept what you're offering;
B) rim protecting bigs who can stay on the court are a precious commodity;
C) you wait to finish stealing Luka before you start spending assets on a C. If the reports are correct, DK and the '31 #1 were in the original Luka deal until Rob pulled them back as the price for not being able to talk to Team Luka beforehand. Rob literally didn't know what he would be able to offer until the Luka trade closed. |
29 teams all try, but ours has the LA market and the necessity to exploit stars that want to come here. We brought a 26y/o defensive generational player here 6 years ago and didn’t roster players that would best utilize his defensive superpowers. Dude had all that time to get something done for his then franchise player. He could have embraced this team as a new defensive juggernaut in this largely Curry inspired 3ball all offense NBA climate….instead he undermined his star’s request and wasted his perfectly capable talents.
And even with the knowledge of possibly going against the Joker again in these playoffs, Rob couldnt fabricate that Dark Knight energy again this offseason.
Even if you want to continue giving him grace, dude knew AD was out with Luka coming in, so having a month to finalize the deal gave him that same amount of time to ADdress the vacancy as well. If a health risk Williams was his only practical contingency to hit that mark…yikes!
We’ll continue to disagree on this issue, but our day1 GM absolutely wasted peak Bron/AD…let’s hope it doesn’t repeat itself with our new duo transitioning from Luka/oldmanBron
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7934
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks V. I just do not see LeGramps taking that big of a haircut that we would get the NTPMLE. TBH, I do not see him taking a pay cut at all (hopefully I am wrong). Trying not to be a pessimist, but I have little to no faith in Rob. I think the gifts he has received have run its course. GM's will not want to deal with us again (if they ever did) especially after Nico. The clock is ticking. |
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kikanga
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Posts: 31126
Location: La La Land
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Inverse wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | name the ONLY player you'd include AR in a trade. i can only think of one: Jaren Jackson Jr. who else do you got? |
If Zion ever figures out how to stay healthy. I'd put him on the list.
Dyson Daniels is intriguing as well. If he ever gets his 3PT % up to high 30%s. |
I've been saying it for a while...the one person I would trade AR for and not even think about it is Amen Thompson. But doubt he'd ever be available |
That's another person I'd put on the list.
We will miss Reaves's playmaking. But Rui draws doubles out of the high post against everyone. He can help make up the difference.
You aren't getting better offense than Reaves at that price point. Only improvement you can make is a legit 2-way starter.
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drae
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 18344
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | I think the issue is Rob didn't really get active in looking for a big UNTIL he traded AD. Once he knew for sure AD was out, and he had Luka, only then did he start to really get active.
Then the only really solid deal he seemed to like was for an oft injured big.
I'm sure if he could he would at least add a Lively/Gafford level big for Luka/Lebron. I just don't think they realised Mark Williams was a bad investment until it was too late to make another deal.
Hopefully it won't bite us in the butt. The team is real close to a title team. West is wide open. |
You're ignoring some key factors. Getting a C has been top of mind for a while.
1) reportedly, we had a deal in place in summer of 21 to acquire Myles Turner & Buddy Hield before we (inexplicably) pivoted to WB;
2) Lakers have grabbed almost every big man experiment they could since 2020 (DH, DeAndre Jordan, Marc Gasol, Jay Huff, Wenyen Gabriel, Thomas Bryant, Mo Bamba, Trezz, Andre Drummond, Tristan Thompson, Colin Castleton, Armel Traore, Christian Koloko, Moses Brown, Trey Jemison and 3-4 other guys I don't remember);
3) Lakers reportedly made offers to Detroit, Brooklyn and one other team for bigs before Charlotte said "yes" for Mark Williams.
The realities are:
A) the other team has to accept what you're offering;
B) rim protecting bigs who can stay on the court are a precious commodity;
C) you wait to finish stealing Luka before you start spending assets on a C. If the reports are correct, DK and the '31 #1 were in the original Luka deal until Rob pulled them back as the price for not being able to talk to Team Luka beforehand. Rob literally didn't know what he would be able to offer until the Luka trade closed. |
29 teams all try, but ours has the LA market and the necessity to exploit stars that want to come here. We brought a 26y/o defensive generational player here 6 years ago and didn’t roster players that would best utilize his defensive superpowers. Dude had all that time to get something done for his then franchise player. He could have embraced this team as a new defensive juggernaut in this largely Curry inspired 3ball all offense NBA climate….instead he undermined his star’s request and wasted his perfectly capable talents.
And even with the knowledge of possibly going against the Joker again in these playoffs, Rob couldnt fabricate that Dark Knight energy again this offseason.
Even if you want to continue giving him grace, dude knew AD was out with Luka coming in, so having a month to finalize the deal gave him that same amount of time to ADdress the vacancy as well. If a health risk Williams was his only practical contingency to hit that mark…yikes!
We’ll continue to disagree on this issue, but our day1 GM absolutely wasted peak Bron/AD…let’s hope it doesn’t repeat itself with our new duo transitioning from Luka/oldmanBron |
Fans can be upset as much as they want but the reality of the situation is this:
Good big men are expensive and or won't come here to play second fiddle to AD. That's it. (Yes Boogie played with AD back in the day, for 18 million in 2017 which would be the equivalent of much more than 20 million now, possibly close to 30, and with Bron, AD, and Reaves and a bunch of other people to pay we don't have that money to fling around)
So what's left are bench players who you're trying to give a full time spot to, old has beens, experiments, or draft people. The Mavs are perfect for AD because they got big men before he went there. Better make the most of this opportunity because Gafford probably ain't staying after his contract finishes |
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RI Laker
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
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drae
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 18344
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
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Dr. Laker
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Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 18343
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
The unspoken point is that AD forgot how to shoot.
When Vogel was hired, he said he wanted AD to take 6 3PA/game. AD took 3.5 @ .330 and we won a chip. AD's Attempts/Percentage since then?
2020-21: 2.8/26.0%
2021-22: 1.8/18.6%
2022-23: 1.3/25.7%
2023-24: 1.4/27.1%
So where you could put a 34% 3-pt shooting AD at the 4 with Boogie in 2017-18, a 33.1% 3-pt shooting AD in 2018-19 and a 33% shooting AD with DH and JaVale in 2019-20, it becomes much more difficult to have him at the 4 with a traditional 5 when he's shooting 25% from 3 and barely taking them.
So when you get a Drummond, etc., you can't really play him and AD together because the defense can have 1 guy zone the middle with strongside help and shut the paint down because he's always within arm's length of either our C or PF.
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RI Laker
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 7934
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
AD is FAR from an old fashioned power forward. He is a modern day PF who was forced to play center. He did not want to play center. I think it was a big mistake having him do so (just my take). |
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drae
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 18344
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | drae wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
The unspoken point is that AD forgot how to shoot.
When Vogel was hired, he said he wanted AD to take 6 3PA/game. AD took 3.5 @ .330 and we won a chip. AD's Attempts/Percentage since then?
2020-21: 2.8/26.0%
2021-22: 1.8/18.6%
2022-23: 1.3/25.7%
2023-24: 1.4/27.1%
So where you could put a 34% 3-pt shooting AD at the 4 with Boogie in 2017-18, a 33.1% 3-pt shooting AD in 2018-19 and a 33% shooting AD with DH and JaVale in 2019-20, it becomes much more difficult to have him at the 4 with a traditional 5 when he's shooting 25% from 3 and barely taking them.
So when you get a Drummond, etc., you can't really play him and AD together because the defense can have 1 guy zone the middle with strongside help and shut the paint down because he's always within arm's length of either our C or PF. |
Agree 1000%. This may be harsh but while most fans blame Rob, imo AD didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
I look, once again, at what Wemby is doing to try and force the FO's hand. He took 9 threes a game and shot it at 35% because imo he desperately wants to be a 4. The game has moved on from the 00s |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I believe since Vogel left/Westbrook came in (the two were hand in hand) are entire make up and philosiphy changed, I've watched a lot Lebron's podcast both with Redick and now Nash. I lean to believe Lebron didn't want to play in Vogel's system anymore. All that ever comes out of his mouth was great offense this, how smart this play is, how smart that play is. He went on for a lot about the offense and almost never speaks about defense. He's extremely focused on offense. You can tell a guy like that probably wants a couple of really good guards next to him PLUS a coach who is going to get that offense rolling. The easier the offense is, the more years Lebron can play. The harder the offense comes by, the more defensive demands, the more likely Lebron's career winds down.
When you start to really go back to the WB move which was a big part of Lebron's pushing as well, that is when we really tilted towards a different model, a dual PG model, more pace and space, more modern NBA style offense. Only WB was horrendous at doing what he was supposed to. Remember AD, Bron all saying "We're moving to the 5 and 4". Yet we just didn't have the roster and legs to play that way (and WB sucked).
Now with Luka, it's NIGHT and DAY. With Reaves development, again NIGHT and DAY. We can finally play that way and look great at it. We have spacing, we have 3-4 ballhandllers that can create. We interchange positions. We have an elite scorer that can go off for 60+.
But back then, absolutely Vogel wanted a big man for AD and wanted AD at the 4 too even if it were a token starting spot, or 12 hard fouls. Vogel is a big believer in defense first and when you have 2-3-4 rim protectors it changes the way defense is played on your end. I highly doubt Vogel ever told Pelinka "Don't get me a big to replace Howard/McGee". This was a GM and arguably Lebron decision to move towards more spacing and guard skill in the offense. The title team basically relied 99% on creating from Bron/Rondo. Not together even, most of the time. Was a very old school type of team.
So back to Pelinka in all of this. I personally believe Pelinka didn't believe in 2 bigs model either, and wanted to go with what Lebron and what he himself felt was better basketball. They've been torn themselves too, IMO. Jeanie's interview gave it away. They knew they won a certain way with AD, but they weren't sold on it being best for Bron and the team anyway.
Now there has been a lot of crap in the way between 2021 and now, but we finally reached a really good spot. We have the exact sort of roster the team has wanted for a while playing a style they want to play. JJ really gets what the team wants to do. Jeanie has a star she can build and model the team around. Sure we lack a big, but probably they know in the summer they'll get one. I'm sure Luka will let them know he needs a big man to set great screens for him like he had in Dallas.
What I just hope is that we don't find ourselves getting bullied and beat up inside AND the REFS LET IT GO. Because in playoff basketball when 2 teams are really close in level, the refs make a big deal. So hopefully they will call a foul a foul the right way, because teams will try to beat us up and play dirty.
How we are reffed playing this way will be huge. We actually have more than enough talent on offense to win a title, if the refs don't let teams foul us regularly. Playoffs are physical, so lets see how the refs call it.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:58 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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vasashi17+
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Posts: 6250
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level?
AD was asked to be an offensive cog, instead of harnessing that defensive energy. No one is saying he should have not been accountable for strong offensive production, but to try to make him some offensive force while sacrificing his true talent on D was absolutely ridiculous. He has to be a center cause he can’t shoot at a high enough clip?? Really??? That would be like trading for Luka and telling him that he has to now focus on being a capable PoA wing defender due to his size and length, meaning we won’t invest in bring 3-D wings here…huh? This ish really didn’t make sense.
We traded for AD and instantly became champions, but it’s far more nuanced than Rob constructing a title worthy roster. Before that title season, both Bron & AD were effectively shutdown the prior season: Bron due to gro’in pains playing with all those youngn’s in his inaugural season in LA, while AD was plotting with Klutch and AD Sr in how to get his exodus from Nawlins when he remained there past the trade deadline. Both the Lakers and the Pels didn’t make the playoffs and that meant Bron and AD not only had large parts of the season where they sat out, but had an entire postseason & offseason to rehab and go fishing since the Olympics/FIBA didn’t gain a commitment from them that summer.
We then came out for the 2019/20 season like gangbusters….which was then paused for 4 months prior to the playoffs due to COVID. Not only did Bron & AD take full advantage of that break in the season, but so to did our collection of vets in Green, Rondo, Dwight, McGee and Kief. Recall that after the AD purge our young boys that were still earning meaningful PT were limited to just Caruso, THT and Kuz. That down time before the bubble run was invaluable for our largely veteran squad.
Rob had so much confidence in his roster building that he immediately tore it down knowing full well a COVID pause button wasn’t going to suddenly be the norm towards future seasons in the NBA.
So what we all should have taken away from that won&done unit is that if you give Bron & AD enough gas in the tank for a postseason run, they could have their way. In particular to AD, give him a slew of perimeter capable defenders and they should provide enough resistance so that dude doesn’t receive the entire pay load at the rim as the team’s last line of defense. He is capable of playing the rim protecting center, but that shouldn’t mean you keep dude there for the regular season and thru out the playoffs.
Was AD given enough burn throughout the years here with perimeter defenders like DFS, Vando and Gabe to keep him a center? Was he given a capable starting center so that he could play more of the roamer on defense instead? We already know the answers and look at what it did to AD’s body and his availability throughout the years here.
Our GM made this comment during AD’s welcome presser in 2019.
| Quote: | “When Anthony and I first started talking about the roster, he did say, ‘I’d love to have some fives that can bang with some length,” said the GM. “He’s 26. We want a decade of dominance out of him here, so we have to do what’s best for his body and having him bang against the biggest centers in the West every night is not what’s best for his body, or the team or the franchise.”
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Bruh!? Luka, you better hope there’s a big trade at the executive level, otherwise you next dude.
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hype
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | drae wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
The unspoken point is that AD forgot how to shoot.
When Vogel was hired, he said he wanted AD to take 6 3PA/game. AD took 3.5 @ .330 and we won a chip. AD's Attempts/Percentage since then?
2020-21: 2.8/26.0%
2021-22: 1.8/18.6%
2022-23: 1.3/25.7%
2023-24: 1.4/27.1%
So where you could put a 34% 3-pt shooting AD at the 4 with Boogie in 2017-18, a 33.1% 3-pt shooting AD in 2018-19 and a 33% shooting AD with DH and JaVale in 2019-20, it becomes much more difficult to have him at the 4 with a traditional 5 when he's shooting 25% from 3 and barely taking them.
So when you get a Drummond, etc., you can't really play him and AD together because the defense can have 1 guy zone the middle with strongside help and shut the paint down because he's always within arm's length of either our C or PF. |
Agree 1000%. This may be harsh but while most fans blame Rob, imo AD didn't hold up his end of the bargain.
I look, once again, at what Wemby is doing to try and force the FO's hand. He took 9 threes a game and shot it at 35% because imo he desperately wants to be a 4. The game has moved on from the 00s |
I couldn't agree more either.. I've been saying this for awhile and people always point to the fact "Well it worked for a Championship in the Bubble!". While he was already at his Lakers career high as a 3 point shooter that Season which he raised the bar even higher to above 38% throughout that Championship run in the Playoffs. It's why so many were excited about the future and thought he was on the verge on taking the keys to the Franchise with Bron more than happy to let it happen.
The reality is most defenses absolutely consider AD taking 3's as a HUGE win in the Playoffs especially ever since. He's gotten outshot from 3 by Draymond mf Green and since the bubble it's been an absolute landslide in Dray's favor. You want us to put a traditional five next to him in the current era of 3 point shooting? We have no shot against the best teams with that trash so we clearly have been looking for bargain big men since an expensive one is just going to heavily drop our ceiling since they'll be getting played off the floor in the Playoffs or if they don't we'd just get destroyed. It seems very blatant to me so I just don't really get people continuing to argue this? Even if we still had one of the better traditional 5's in the NBA with Zu at $20 million a Year.. That frontcourt would be hilariously destroyed against a team like Boston.. We have NO chance if the end goal is to win an actual Championship imo. Paying any traditional big for that matter $20+ million is insane to me personally these days which is also why I have gotten over losing Zu as soon as he was paid his current contract.
I love that AD brought us a Championship but it's really weird to me that so many still blame Rob and crucify him for this as it was clearly the right decision.. If AD wanted to play the 4 maybe he should have worked tirelessly on that 3 point shot in the off Seasons so we could even attempt to realistically try it in this current era.. He's currently at about 26-27% this Season between his Lakers and Mavs stats. With an aging Bron especially they weren't doing ANYTHING this Year much like the rest of the last half decade and it hardly had anything to do with not having 5's for AD. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level? |
Nothing - but it has EVERYTHING to do with running a "pace & space" offense, which is pretty much what every team in organized basketball wants to do rn. You cannot space if you cannot shoot from distance, which (as another poster noted) is why 7'5" Wemby takes 9 3PA/game.
Why did LG (including YOU) want to pair AD with Myles Turner? Because Myles takes 6 3PA @ 40%, bruh!
MVJoker? 5 @ 42%!
If AD can't take/hit from deep, then you stick him at the 5 and put LBJ at the 4.
If AD don't want to play the 5, then ignore him or move him, but the game is "pace and space."
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level? |
Nothing - but it has EVERYTHING to do with running a "pace & space" offense, which is pretty much what every team in organized basketball wants to do rn. You cannot space if you cannot shoot from distance, which (as another poster noted) is why 7'5" Wemby takes 9 3PA/game.
Why did LG (including YOU) want to pair AD with Myles Turner? Because Myles takes 6 3PA @ 40%, bruh!
MVJoker? 5 @ 42%!
If AD can't take/hit from deep, then you stick him at the 5 and put LBJ at the 4.
If AD don't want to play the 5, then move him, but the game is "pace and space." |
I agree pace and space is what teams do, but one thing to consider is that they were playing AD at the 5 even with Vogel, even with McGee/Howard. The difference was that the entire game/minutes were not centered around AD having to do all the switching on D for screens set by the opposing 5 and anchoring on D. This allows AD to be more free to focus on other areas.
The real problem for the way the team was set up was that IF Lebron didn't play the PG role dominantly, the team couldn't do a damn thing. It was also grind it out, physical basketball. This is not how I personally believe Lebron and Pelinka saw his career play out. By 2020 even, they focused on guard help. First Dennis. Then Westbrook. Then D'Angelo.
All were mediocre and made the team not really better than the 2020 championship model UNTIL now. We finally in Luka have a PG that is legit SO GOOD that it justifies playing pace and space, smaller, and without focus on Lebron having the ball. However in saying that, no way do I agree that Pelinka made the right call between 2020-2022. A lot of bad calls were made that set the team back. I certainly back Vasashi in that if Pelinka had instead used assets to improve his Center position and defense between 2020-2022 instead of focus on creating more pace/space and guard play for Lebron to have an easier time to score, the team would have won more with AD as the in prime HOF star. We got 1 ring/1 WCF which is solid, but the talent was for more. And I also agree with the argument, had he not blown so much of his means to try and get Dennis/WB/D'Angelo, he'd have Reaves/Caruso + a big like Turner. Then, he could have dealt/done the same AD/Luka swap and been in an even greater position, roster balance wise.
In the end though, past is the past. You can't really hate a GM that delivers you first an in prime AD at 26 and then in prime Luka at 26. I really don't hate the guy and appreciate his ability to deliver HOF talent like that. I just wish he would hold himself to the same standard he holds his head coaches and and fans seem to hold the great players. Time to focus on getting #18. Anytime you have a player like Luka, you have a shot. That's all I really care about TBH.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| RI Laker wrote: | | drae wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | ^^Its not even like we needed to get a good big man. All we needed was someone to alleviate the banging and physicality that AD was forced to endure. He asked for a center countless times to no avail. I think he felt that this would help him with the rigors of the regular season. I always wondered why he never got superstar treatment. Usually, when players at his level ask for something, they get it. Anyways, its water under the bridge now. |
Good rim protectors are expensive. Gobert is a liability on offense and is on 40 million dollars a year.
You can put an okay rim protector on the court, but how do you neutralize a 40 million dollar a year rim protector in Gobert? You do a Luka and drag him to the perimeter.
So you can get a decentish rim protector who's a liability on the perimeter and gets exploited by 5 out teams like Boston, and can't contribute to any offense, for possibly cheap but why are you putting a liability on the court? That's a good way to lose a bunch of games.
Anthony Davis is an old fashioned power forward in an era when power forwards are becoming very rare (Giannis and not many others). Most power forwards either a) have to become a stretch 4 or b ) have to move to center. What happened to Blake Griffin? He learnt to shoot the 3 and most of his latter career was shooting it at 35%.
Old fashioned power forwards asking to play next to a center isn't unique to AD. Most of these requests get ignored. Keep an eye on Wemby too, he wants to play the 4. He's been asking to play next to a center for 2 years now. This year the Spurs didn't even have a playable BACKUP on the roster. |
AD is FAR from an old fashioned power forward. He is a modern day PF who was forced to play center. He did not want to play center. I think it was a big mistake having him do so (just my take). |
We won our ring with AD playing center. Dwight and Javale got played off the floor as the playoffs went on. |
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manlisten
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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When you have Anthony Davis on your roster you absolutely don't NEED another center. You already have an elite center. So it's easy for me to understand why that wasn't a priority until after he was traded. AD is a center no matter what he says or how he feels. If he said he was a pony that doesn't mean you run out and pin a tail on his ass.
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mhan00
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I think the issue is Rob didn't really get active in looking for a big UNTIL he traded AD. Once he knew for sure AD was out, and he had Luka, only then did he start to really get active.
Then the only really solid deal he seemed to like was for an oft injured big.
I'm sure if he could he would at least add a Lively/Gafford level big for Luka/Lebron. I just don't think they realised Mark Williams was a bad investment until it was too late to make another deal.
Hopefully it won't bite us in the butt. The team is real close to a title team. West is wide open. |
Of course he only started to get active after securing Luka. When Luka is on the table, you don’t do (bleep) until you close that deal. Not only would Rob not know what the final cost for Luka would have been, he also wouldn’t have wanted to be looping in any other teams to discuss including other players either. He wanted zero word that Luka was available to be leaking out anywhere and nuking the deal in the first place as Dallas fans rioted and other teams started offering their own packages. The only other team involved was the Jazz, and even they only knew they were taking on JHS in exchange for some 2nd rounders until like 20 minutes before the paper work was sent into the league office.
And it sounds like Rob made the rounds offering the same package he sent out for Mark Williams to other teams around the league in exchange for credible centers (Jalen Duran was one and Kessler was another) and no one was interested. Good centers are expensive, and the cost controlled ones are worth way more than DK4 and a pick 6 years in the future. |
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gng930
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level? |
Nothing - but it has EVERYTHING to do with running a "pace & space" offense, which is pretty much what every team in organized basketball wants to do rn. You cannot space if you cannot shoot from distance, which (as another poster noted) is why 7'5" Wemby takes 9 3PA/game.
Why did LG (including YOU) want to pair AD with Myles Turner? Because Myles takes 6 3PA @ 40%, bruh!
MVJoker? 5 @ 42%!
If AD can't take/hit from deep, then you stick him at the 5 and put LBJ at the 4.
If AD don't want to play the 5, then ignore him or move him, but the game is "pace and space." |
Glad you brought up Wemby because one of the points that had been made was the Spurs' willingness to protect him by investing at center. allowing him to play PF. That's now a distant memory while Zach Collins collected about $17 million a year sitting on the Spurs' bench. That's not a mistake you can make while also investing $50 million a year in another guy whose best position is PF.
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gng930
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: |
Our GM made this comment during AD’s welcome presser in 2019.
| Quote: | “When Anthony and I first started talking about the roster, he did say, ‘I’d love to have some fives that can bang with some length,” said the GM. “He’s 26. We want a decade of dominance out of him here, so we have to do what’s best for his body and having him bang against the biggest centers in the West every night is not what’s best for his body, or the team or the franchise.”
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That's what he did until AD helped recruit Russ and agreed to play more center to accommodate him. And then gained the requisite bulk for it.
Good to have to you back btw. Can't have a V+ homecoming without rehashing this at least once right? 
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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@G: good to be back to squash these ridiculous narratives imho 😬. You count an abridged/rushed NBA season as Rob addressing it, huh? He started with Marc, who was clearly on his last kegs, and his retirement the year after all but confirmed it. Yeah that dude logged 19mins per leaving more than half the game for exactly who to play center? 6th man undersized Trezz? Remember, we’re trying to find options for AD to play with for the majority of the game. Drummond came on midseason via buyout and avg about 25mins per game. Granted AD missed regular season games which may have added to these minute avgs some, but the point is that we got a condensed NBA season to honor AD’s request before forcing him to convert to a fulltime regular season C.
As for this insinuated narrative that Russ was a trade strongarmed by Klutch, even tho Rob continued to be the GM and had autonomy from Jeanie, someone want to tell DeRozan what happened, cause it seemed LeGM was getting ready to bring him in instead.
| Quote: | "Sources said [general manager Rob] Pelinka and his front-office group strongly considered executing a sign-and-trade for the 32-year-old DeRozan, giving up [Kyle] Kuzma and [Kentavious] Caldwell-Pope in the process," Bill Oram, Shams Charania and Sam Amick of The Athletic reported.
DeRozan also reportedly had two meetings with LeBron James at James' home, and the two had ongoing phone conversations.
According to The Athletic, DeRozan "emerged from his meetings with that locker room brain trust believing he was their priority and he might soon be playing in the purple and gold."
However, the Lakers reportedly couldn't agree on contract terms for DeRozan or compensation for the San Antonio Spurs in a sign-and-trade.
Los Angeles turned its attention to Buddy Hield before ultimately making the move for Westbrook.
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Seems like contract terms nixing that deal is on brand with what happened to Caruso that summer. Btw was it Klutch’s call to strongarm AC out the door to save Jeanie some coin?
Anyways the point is that Rob continuously dropped the ball in finding AD a C to play with. The call to bring one in was primarily done to unlock AD defensively. That dude knew that…unfortunately our FO didn’t.
As for the pace & space revolution, remember that the dubs team that most of these imitators are emulating had a front line of Dray & Looney to “stretch the floor” in their most recent title. Before that it was Giannis and BLo (who wasn’t taking many 3s). I wouldn’t say anything about Joker cause his game is too lit, but his frontline partner wasn’t some guy to take & make 3s at a mike high clip.
So although the offense is important, I continue to be offended with folks forgetting there are two sides to the court and maybe that other side has something to do with winning as well.
Anyways…we know how this discussion will continue to go. So agree to keep disagreeing and let’s just keep it moving G.
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | When you have Anthony Davis on your roster you absolutely don't NEED another center. You already have an elite center. So it's easy for me to understand why that wasn't a priority until after he was traded. AD is a center no matter what he says or how he feels. If he said he was a pony that doesn't mean you run out and pin a tail on his ass. |
Imagine that it had been a priority and once AD was traded, the team wouldn’t have to rely on backup G League centers. I get that management wouldn’t want to spend on one because it would eat into profits but look at the low salary centers that have been available the past couple of seasons. More than likely it will end up costing this season’s team in the playoffs.
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drae
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level? |
Nobody correlated the two, just in your mind.
Being a strong perimeter shooter though spaces the floor, which is what Lebron needs to operate, and to a lesser extent both Luka and Reaves needs to operate. Yes we won in 2020 but we played one center for most of the Finals series and he was shooting somewhat decently from 3.
The idea that you have 2 people who can't shoot clogging up the paint is a very old fashioned concept. You don't win like that anymore |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | When you have Anthony Davis on your roster you absolutely don't NEED another center. You already have an elite center. So it's easy for me to understand why that wasn't a priority until after he was traded. AD is a center no matter what he says or how he feels. If he said he was a pony that doesn't mean you run out and pin a tail on his ass. |
Imagine that it had been a priority and once AD was traded, the team wouldn’t have to rely on backup G League centers. I get that management wouldn’t want to spend on one because it would eat into profits but look at the low salary centers that have been available the past couple of seasons. More than likely it will end up costing this season’s team in the playoffs. |
How do you define low salary, and which centers are you talking about?
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | | vasashi17+ wrote: | | What does being a strong perimeter shooter have to do with defending at a high level? |
Nobody correlated the two, just in your mind.
Being a strong perimeter shooter though spaces the floor, which is what Lebron needs to operate, and to a lesser extent both Luka and Reaves needs to operate. Yes we won in 2020 but we played one center for most of the Finals series and he was shooting somewhat decently from 3.
The idea that you have 2 people who can't shoot clogging up the paint is a very old fashioned concept. You don't win like that anymore |
We didn't even win like that in the 2020 playoffs.
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drae
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2025 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | | remember that the dubs team that most of these imitators are emulating had a front line of Dray & Looney to “stretch the floor” in their most recent title. |
Looney averaged 21 mins, so he wasn't even on the court half the games. You're not getting any sort of decent center with those sorts of minutes. And Looney's seeing even less of the floor these days averaging 15 mins. He's a true backup center. We can find those, they're just not very good. Sort of a defensive liability on a team back then where we had quite a few defensive liabilities |
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