Brittney Griner found guilty and sentenced to nine years in prison
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:08 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
FernieBee wrote:
I think part of the reason so many are against BG's return is that she's Black, not straight, and a woman.



I mean, where were all these outraged citizens when we traded for Trevor Reed earlier this year? That guy went to Russia, got (bleep)-faced black-out drunk with his girlfriend and ended up getting 9 years for supposedly assaulting some police officers. We gave up an agent of death for him too, Konstantin Yaroshenko, who was in the middle of a 20 year bid for drug smuggling.

You remember all the outraged 'Muricans?? Yeah, me neither.

But y'all are sour because a basketball player caught with some weed oil got chosen over a dishonorably discharged FORMER marine who was a court-martialed convicted criminal and PROBABLY a spy???


I'm puzzled. Biden gave reasons why the trade went as it did. We don't have a Russian spy to trade. I believe if we did we would trade her/him.

BG is an American citizen who made a stupid mistake. Where is the American humanitarian? Should she spend 9 years in a penal colony because the POS she's being traded for is a (Y)? I think not.

I'd like those who think the trade put America at a disadvantage to post reasons why. The reasons may be valid and forge honest debate.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:12 pm    Post subject:

FernieBee wrote:
MSNBC

(Busted: U.S. 'Putin-Style Drug War' Under Fire After Brittney Griner Release)

Quote:
Brittney Griner is back home in the United States after being freed of Russian custody for allegedly having vape cartridges with cannabis oil. The global story putting new scrutiny on U.S. drug laws — where thousands are jailed for drug possession. MSNBC Chief Legal Correspondent Ari Melber reports on why the Griner story is renewing calls for criminal Justice reform as many Americans are in prison for decades for pot possession.


This is another area where American hypocrisy is revealed in this case. Far too many people who have correctly pointed to the minor nature of Griner’s crime are completely silent about the vast numbers of people (almost all of whom are minorities) who are serving prison sentences here in the states for simple possession charges.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 6:54 pm    Post subject:

Where are we? Is the release of BG for a POS good or bad for our country or is our supposed humanitarian image important? What's more important, do we loose a criminal who we can keep tabs on and diminish his effectiveness or bring a citizen home? I say bring a citizen home. Politics is a complicated foray. Unfortunately, BG is a political pawn. We're not politicians WE ARE BG. C'mon fam.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2022 9:33 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Where are we? Is the release of BG for a POS good or bad for our country? Do we loose a criminal who we can keep tabs on and diminish his effectiveness or bring a citizen home? I say make the trade. Politics is a complicated foray. Unfortunately, BG is a political pawn. We're not politicians WE ARE BG. C'mon fam.


It's obviously a great thing that Brittany Griner is free, just as it should be when any American is being held as a political prisoner is lucky enough to be released, regardless of whether they are a celebrity or not. And that's where things get complicated. When Griner was initially charged, you said Griner was your number one priority for release, despite the fact that there are other Americans being held around the globe and who are deserving and have been for far longer, and that was clearly because she was a celebrity you knew of, and not a faceless name. Unfortunately there are faceless names being held around the world for various crimes, from minor drug possession to espionage.

And this is why I believe that acknowledgement is crucial. I come to this discussion with some personal experience with being connected to people who have been held by foreign nations. When I was about 12 or 13 a family friend was arrested in a foreign country ( I believe it was Iran, but this is something that happened close to 50 years ago, so I may have that detail wrong) and charged as a spy for the British government. He was an executive for a company that manufactured fire trucks and also exported them internationally. I remember all this, because as a preteen, it was staggering to me that someone who I knew as a regular person, who was the dad to kids I was friends with, could be arrested and held as a spy and face many, many years in prison. As my dad explained to me at the time, you never really know the exact circumstances of why they are being held. He could be innocent, or he could actually be spy, but your personal experience with them is moot, because if you are a spy, it's not something you share with your friends and family. He ended up being held for over 10 years, and I remember my mom telling me when his release was finally being negotiated, that his wife was allowed a humanitarian visit for the first time since he was arrested. His wife's first reaction to seeing him was that there must be some big mistake; the man was not her husband, because he was unrecognizable to her, both physically and personality wise. This was of course because of years of brutal incarceration. Fortunately, this man was significant enough that even after all those years, the British government still worked to gain his release, and he was eventually released, though I don't claim to remember what the exact circumstances for that were.

Which brings me to the other person I was connected to that was arrested and held in a foreign prison. In the mid '80's my good friend's girlfriend and her boyfriend were arrested for drug possession while on a surfing trip around Indonesia. They were apparently in possession of a small quantity of marijuana. She was eventually released after a few weeks and was essentially dumped at an airport in Java and told to get herself out of the country. Her boyfriend was charged with drug trafficking and was sentenced to life (in case people aren't aware, drug laws in Indonesia are very draconian and even death sentences are common for relatively tame offenses). I don't know what eventually happened to him or if he was ever released, but it's not like the US government was going to bend over backwards to facilitate the release of a minor surf celebrity the way that Griner's case became a popular cause.

So why do I feel I should share this? Because everyone being held in a foreign nation under unreasonable circumstances is a human being. Some may be actually guilty of what they are being held for, but even when they are, the "crime" doesn't always necessarily fit the sentence. Not every minor drug offender is lucky enough to be a WNBA star. Not everyone labelled a spy is guilty of anything other than being inconveniently in the wrong place at the wrong time and turned into a political pawn.

And this is why the circumstances around Griner's release are the subject of scrutiny by some of us. Because they should be. Her release doesn't occur in a vacuum. The details and factors of her release become precedent for future negotiations. That's why these things are so tricky. What seems like a victory on the surface will actually be a factor in making future negotiations. If the details aren't solid, they may make future negotiations more difficult for someone else who may be equally deserving of being released, but is not a face to a name we all know. What you do and do not agree to in these types of negotiations is what sets the bar for future ones. So, yes, they should be held to scrutiny.

All of that is why the whole idea of "Hey, Brittany is home! Who (bleep) cares what the circumstances behind it are" is a naive and problematic attitude, and is why the entire context of these negotiations is so important. Brittany Griner's release doesn't occur in a vacuum. The important details around the entirety of it will resonate in future negotiations. There will be somebody else down the road who won't have the luxury of being famous, but will be equally deserving of coming home and the odds and ease of whether or not that happens depend on prior precedent.

That is why some people initially questioned the results and wanted to know more before just simply declaring it an outright victory, because they have empathy and concern for the others who will be the subject of the next deal that gets brokered.

Hope that gives you some perspective, fam.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject:

I understand and mostly agree with you. My position is when dealing with Russia we're dealing with a nation with no compassion putting the US at a disadvantage.

In BG's case, Biden had little choice. If another US citizen is arrested in Russia we will be in the same disadvantageous position.

I'm on board with your travel advisories. Travelers would be forewarned of the risks and where America stands.

The victory was the release of BG. The consequences were unavoidable. The disadvantage was and will remain.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:46 am    Post subject:

The question that should be asked is, if Griner wasn't arrested in Russia, would Whelan (or any other nameless American detained overseas) be home today?

If you answer yes, then I understand the position against Griner. If you answer no, then I don't.

I'd say no. Griner didn't change Whelan's circumstances, so Griner shouldn't be linked to Whelan.

Did Griner go to the front of the line? It seems so. Was there a line to begin with? It doesn't seem that way. So basically, Griner's celebrity status allowed her to go to the front of a line where no one was standing/waiting in line to begin with!

Is this wrong or unfair? Sure. But, it was unfair before Griner got arrested. The US had plenty of opportunities to get Whelan (and other nameless Americans) home. They just weren't going to do it.

People paint this picture where the US was working to get Whelan and other nameless Americans home, then Griner got arrested and they dropped their negotiations for the others and began working on Griner's case. That wasn't the case at all. Griner went to the front of an empty line!

Conversely, Griner certainly brought more attention to Whelan's plight. Now instead of the line being empty, Whelan might actually be standing in line now.

To recap, the wrong wasn't that Griner cut in front of the line. The wrong is that, the line was empty to begin with. No one was standing in line before Griner, and that is wrong. But the wrong had nothing to do with Griner.

DaMuleRules wrote:
The details and factors of her release become precedent for future negotiations. That's why these things are so tricky. What seems like a victory on the surface will actually be a factor in making future negotiations. If the details aren't solid, they may make future negotiations more difficult for someone else who may be equally deserving of being released, but is not a face to a name we all know. What you do and do not agree to in these types of negotiations is what sets the bar for future ones. So, yes, they should be held to scrutiny.


But the theory is that nameless Americans don't move the needle in negotiations, only celebrities do.

So Griner's case shouldn't affect future nameless Americans, since Russia knows it doesn't get them anywhere in negotiations anyways.

If the theory is that celebrities move to the front of the line in negotiations, then Griner is going to make Russia target more celebrities instead of nameless Americans.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject:

So we're just going to ignore that a whole other American was negotiated for and released this year?? We're just gonna pretend like Trevor Reed didn't happen and BG has reconfigured the WHOLE BAR for ALL things moving forward??

Okay.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:37 pm    Post subject:

It has something to do with Griner being famous, the arrest being egregious (although oddly, a lot of people seem to have zero sympathy for her or there’s some whataboutism regarding us drug prisoners), Bout being pretty notorious and the narrative of him being some boogey man who will single-handedly go out and increase arms sales to terrorists.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:40 pm    Post subject:

In the conservative world, Griner is a black lesbian dope smoker who had it coming, and Whelan is an innocent tourist who is being abandoned by Biden, we shouldn’t negotiate to free anyone because it sends the wrong message (while simultaneously we should get them all free), and generally anything they do would be wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:00 pm    Post subject:

I think sometime in the near future BG or Cherelle Griner will be running for public office. Most likely Cherelle. She has a Juris Doctor Degree. She graduated with honors from North Carolina Central University School of Law.

I've heard mention of them advocating for the release of US citizens held in foreign countries. I see politics in their future.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:01 pm    Post subject:

I think sometime in the near future BG or Cherelle Griner will be running for public office. Most likely Cherelle. She has a Juris Doctor Degree. She graduated with honors from North Carolina Central University School of Law.

I've heard mention of them advocating for the release of US citizens held in foreign countries. I see politics in their future.

Cherelle has had a taste of Washington.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:08 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
So we're just going to ignore that a whole other American was negotiated for and released this year?? We're just gonna pretend like Trevor Reed didn't happen and BG has reconfigured the WHOLE BAR for ALL things moving forward??

Okay.


Every prisoner exchange is part of a much larger, ongoing chess game. Brittany Griner’s case didn’t occur in a vacuum unaffected by past events, nor will it be ignored in future ones. That’s the way things have worked for many decades.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:32 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It has something to do with Griner being famous, the arrest being egregious (although oddly, a lot of people seem to have zero sympathy for her or there’s some whataboutism regarding us drug prisoners), Bout being pretty notorious and the narrative of him being some boogey man who will single-handedly go out and increase arms sales to terrorists.


Wow. Lot's of disingenuousness to address here. Let's start with the bogus assertion that if someone discusses the details and implications of Griner's release, it equates to a lack of sympathy for her. The implication that the two are mutually exclusive is intellectual laziness that is beneath you.

Next, to say that pointing out the hypocrisy of people discussing the minor nature of Griner's possession charge, while ignoring the huge number of people being held in this country for similarly minor crimes, is an of "whataboutism" is intellectual dishonesty at its very definition (because I know you know what whataboutism actually is).

Lastly, no one stated that Bout is "some boogey man who will single-handedly go out and increase arms sales to terrorists." What was said was that he was a notorious arms dealer who is responsible for who knows how many innocent deaths, including Americans, and that Russia obviously wanted him back regardless of whether he was capable of returning to the arms trade, and that indicates that he isn't just a piece of washed up driftwood of no value to anyone, as you have repeatedly maintained.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:36 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
So we're just going to ignore that a whole other American was negotiated for and released this year?? We're just gonna pretend like Trevor Reed didn't happen and BG has reconfigured the WHOLE BAR for ALL things moving forward??

Okay.


Every prisoner exchange is part of a much larger, ongoing chess game. Brittany Griner’s case didn’t occur in a vacuum unaffected by past events, nor will it be ignored in future ones. That’s the way things have worked for many decades.


Okay, you know this, so why are you mad and writing dissertations??
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
It has something to do with Griner being famous, the arrest being egregious (although oddly, a lot of people seem to have zero sympathy for her or there’s some whataboutism regarding us drug prisoners), Bout being pretty notorious and the narrative of him being some boogey man who will single-handedly go out and increase arms sales to terrorists.


99% of people whining about Bout never even heard of him before all this, and for that matter, Whelan or Trevor Reed...AND DIDN'T CARE. And we know this because they didn't care anything about the bad guy Russian wanted (and got) for Trevor Reed. Now they want to write think pieces. But here's the thing - nobody would have a frickin thing to say (just like Reed) if Russia chose Whelan to hand over for Bout instead of Griner. Even as a dishonorably discharged court-martialed THIEF, Muricans still value him more.

And I say all of this STILL with the hope that they figure out a way to get Paul Whelan Home.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:55 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
So we're just going to ignore that a whole other American was negotiated for and released this year?? We're just gonna pretend like Trevor Reed didn't happen and BG has reconfigured the WHOLE BAR for ALL things moving forward??

Okay.


Every prisoner exchange is part of a much larger, ongoing chess game. Brittany Griner’s case didn’t occur in a vacuum unaffected by past events, nor will it be ignored in future ones. That’s the way things have worked for many decades.


Okay, you know this, so why are you mad and writing dissertations??


First of all, I'm not "mad". I'm addressing incorrect assertions that you, Omar and others have made that state that acknowledging that above is somehow being Anti-Griner, which couldn't be further from reality.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:22 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
It has something to do with Griner being famous, the arrest being egregious (although oddly, a lot of people seem to have zero sympathy for her or there’s some whataboutism regarding us drug prisoners), Bout being pretty notorious and the narrative of him being some boogey man who will single-handedly go out and increase arms sales to terrorists.


99% of people whining about Bout never even heard of him before all this, and for that matter, Whelan or Trevor Reed...AND DIDN'T CARE. And we know this because they didn't care anything about the bad guy Russian wanted (and got) for Trevor Reed. Now they want to write think pieces. But here's the thing - nobody would have a frickin thing to say (just like Reed) if Russia chose Whelan to hand over for Bout instead of Griner. Even as a dishonorably discharged court-martialed THIEF, Muricans still value him more.

And I say all of this STILL with the hope that they figure out a way to get Paul Whelan Home.


hoopschick29 wrote:
Paul Whelan on the other hand....

1. Bad conduct discharge from the USMC
2. Court-martialed by the USMC
3. Had 4 ACTIVE passports
4. Caught with classified Russian documents and a stack of cash.

That sounds like the resume of a professional spy, even though the US denies it.


Interesting that you have posted those two things while criticizing others for wondering about the ramifications of the Griner exchange while they never, even remotely, said anything unsupportive of Griner.

I posted my "think piece" regarding my personal experience because it made me aware, since my youth, that these are complicated cases that involve human beings. Thus, I have empathy for all of those involved—not just the celebrities I like.

And you are wrong about another thing. If the deal had been Whelan for Bout, I still would have questioned it because of the disparity of their respective crimes, and the fact that Bout was clearly guilty of his, but there is expressed doubt by the US government about Whelan's.

The fact that you and Omar have to misrepresent the statements of others in order to make a point speaks great volumes about the lack of substance involved in your own.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:32 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
There will be somebody else down the road who won't have the luxury of being famous, but will be equally deserving of coming home and the odds and ease of whether or not that happens depend on prior precedent.


Another great post. l disagree with this part though.

Britney was a celebrity political prisoner.
Everyday people like your friend in Indonesia and the businessman 50 years ago are in a completely different category.

I don't see Briner being used as precedent for everyday people. Celebrities though. Ya I could see how it could affect those negotiations.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:35 pm    Post subject: g

In a vacuum. Not knowing who is spyin on who. And for what reason.

If someone is a spy, I think it's completely fair for the country that catches them, to keep them. Am I a monster for thinking that?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: g

kikanga wrote:
In a vacuum. Not knowing who is spyin on who. And for what reason.

If someone is a spy, I think it's completely fair for the country that catches them, to keep them. Am I a monster for thinking that?


NO unless the charges are fabricated. I don't know whether or not Whalen is being held on trumped up charges. If they have him dead bang he's going to be a difficult trade. Our government knows for sure.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:32 am    Post subject:

DL Hughley

(DL Hughley: My 2 Cents on Brittney Griner's Release)

Quote:
There was a time when the release of American citizens who had been unjustly imprisoned by a foreign adversary was a moment for bipartisan relief and celebration but NOT with this one. Brittney Griner’s homecoming has been fueled by the politics of race, gender and sexual orientation.

As far as Presidents in general, it’s par for the course to use your power in favor of your constituents. Dial in even closer on that and #PresidentBiden has consistently reciprocated the support he was given by #BlackWomen throughout his presidency. It’s basic; what goes around comes around. Most people view that in a negative light because that’s what they put out and expect to come back around.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:36 am    Post subject:

Black women might be the most resilient group of people this country has.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:07 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
There will be somebody else down the road who won't have the luxury of being famous, but will be equally deserving of coming home and the odds and ease of whether or not that happens depend on prior precedent.


Another great post. l disagree with this part though.

Britney was a celebrity political prisoner.
Everyday people like your friend in Indonesia and the businessman 50 years ago are in a completely different category.

I don't see Briner being used as precedent for everyday people. Celebrities though. Ya I could see how it could affect those negotiations.


The point is, every negotiation is going to affect others that come after, no matter who is involved.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: g

kikanga wrote:
In a vacuum. Not knowing who is spyin on who. And for what reason.

If someone is a spy, I think it's completely fair for the country that catches them, to keep them. Am I a monster for thinking that?


It doesn't make you a monster, it just makes you wrong. You can't go around presenting yourself as a nation of freedom and due process and just start locking people up and holding them because you say they are a spy. We've been doing that to alleged terrorist operatives by sending them to Guantanemo without any oversight and it's one of the ugliest, unjust things this nation has done.

What's to prevent our adversaries from snatching people up and calling them spies? Not to mention there are acts of espionage that don't necessarily warrant being held, untried, for the rest of ones life.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: g

DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
In a vacuum. Not knowing who is spyin on who. And for what reason.

If someone is a spy, I think it's completely fair for the country that catches them, to keep them. Am I a monster for thinking that?


It doesn't make you a monster, it just makes you wrong. You can't go around presenting yourself as a nation of freedom and due process and just start locking people up and holding them because you say they are a spy. We've been doing that to alleged terrorist operatives by sending them to Guantanemo without any oversight and it's one of the ugliest, unjust things this nation has done.

What's to prevent our adversaries from snatching people up and calling them spies? Not to mention there are acts of espionage that don't necessarily warrant being held, untried, for the rest of ones life.


False imprisonment. No matter what the charge is. That's wrong. I agree it's wrong to lock people up if they aren't a spy.

But if someone is proven to be a spy. I think it is fair to restrict their ability to inform whomever they are working for. Until the information the spy knows is no longer valuable. If it is valuable until the day they die, then that's how it goes. It's part of the job hazard of being a spy.

I don't necessarily think they should be imprisoned though. Restricting their communications and keeping them on your soil is reasonable. But throwing them in a rotten jail cell for life, if they aren't a danger to society, is wrong IMO.
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