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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:59 am Post subject: |
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miggz23 wrote: | BILBJH wrote: | Luka vs. Lebron
The first five years.
Luka is outscoring him (check out the per 36), outrebounding him, making more dimes than young LBJ
I mean it's true that Luka could squander his talents like Shaq did but remember that half the people on this board are LBJ fans.
They can't look at the data objectively. |
I’ve always said the closest player to breaking Lebron’s all time scoring is Luka. He is offensively gifted on that side of the ball. However he is nowhere close to Lebron on the other side of the ball.
Crazy thing with Luka is how great he is now. So will he take his game to another level when he enters his prime? Or is this the best Luka we’ll ever see? Also can he play like this in a consistent level for 15+ years. Right now he already about a season behind from Lebron in missed games at the same age. When is Luka going to hit his peak wall? Lebron never really hit it until probably a couple years ago. |
I don't think Luka will come close to breaking LBJ's record.
Durability. Remember, Luka has played pro ball since what, 14? That's a ton of wear/tear on that body already, and he's showing it. He's never in the greatest shape either which can't help.
It's the other side of the ball which makes LBJ over Luka not even a debate for me. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:39 am Post subject: |
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LG Savior Buddy Hield is out tonight vs. Mavs (Sickness/Tank). |
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defense Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jan 2010 Posts: 39324
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:46 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
He's not lying. Defensive analytics are terrible. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:48 am Post subject: |
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BILBJH wrote: | Luka vs. Lebron
The first five years.
Luka is outscoring him (check out the per 36), outrebounding him, making more dimes than young LBJ
I mean it's true that Luka could squander his talents like Shaq did but remember that half the people on this board are LBJ fans.
They can't look at the data objectively. |
Shaq squandered his talents? He had the most dominant 8-9 years of any player since Wilt. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:48 am Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
He's not lying. Defensive analytics are terrible. |
this is hilarious. I say player A is bad on D, The response is "his analytics show otherwise" _________________ Kobe.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Clw9scopegx/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y= |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:53 am Post subject: |
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defense wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
He's not lying. Defensive analytics are terrible. |
I think that defensive RAPTOR is the best current metric, though none are perfect. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:57 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
Players and pundits (especially the older ones) are always going to push back against this stuff. It used to be that way in baseball, too. In the case of the NBA, part of the problem is that metrics answer a question that is different from the one that people care about the most. Defensive metrics do not tell you who is the "best" defender. They tell you who has the greatest defensive impact on the court. Those are different things. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26091
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Analytics say Embiid talks trash like he's Shaq but has no rings to back it up. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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vasashi17+ Star Player
Joined: 13 Dec 2019 Posts: 5610
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:01 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | defense wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
He's not lying. Defensive analytics are terrible. |
I think that defensive RAPTOR is the best current metric, though none are perfect. |
I know, right?
My eyes certainly agree with those metrics.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
Gut punch to the gonaDs..can you imagine if AC and BLo were still here? Another “whatif”, having traded for AD & Jrue to take up that 3rd max slot. Dead ass… our defense would be riDic _________________ Not familiar with the salary cap/CBA rules & how it impacts our Lakers?
#GetFamiliar by CLICKING HERE!
Last edited by vasashi17+ on Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:07 am; edited 2 times in total |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26091
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:02 am Post subject: |
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BILBJH wrote: | Luka vs. Lebron
The first five years.
Luka is outscoring him (check out the per 36), outrebounding him, making more dimes than young LBJ
I mean it's true that Luka could squander his talents like Shaq did but remember that half the people on this board are LBJ fans.
They can't look at the data objectively. |
If Luka defended like LeBron too, he'd likely have a ring right now _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:24 am Post subject: |
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NBA rescinds Luka's tech. Methinks they're making up the botched call they had that the Mavs are protesting. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:29 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | NBA rescinds Luka's tech. Methinks they're making up the botched call they had that the Mavs are protesting. |
Maybe, but the NBA rescinds a fair number of technical fouls. Most of them don't get any attention. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
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lakersfan32 Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 3601
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: |
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damn, dennis smith jr is in the top 5 defensive RAPTOR. shoulda signed him |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | NBA rescinds Luka's tech. Methinks they're making up the botched call they had that the Mavs are protesting. |
Maybe, but the NBA rescinds a fair number of technical fouls. Most of them don't get any attention. |
I was listening to Marc Stein's podcast and it sounded like he thought it was for certain the NBA would not rescind this one (and Luka would be suspended). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Alex Caruso (foot) listed questionable Monday. |
Can’t make this (bleep) up. He will sit out tonight and LGSRS for Wednesday. |
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ocho Retired Number
Joined: 24 May 2005 Posts: 53714
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Aeneas Hunter wrote: | LakerSD wrote: | Quote: | Joel Embiid says ‘analytics don’t make sense at all’
“You can talk about analytics all you want. When you got some guys in the league, the eye test tells you that they’re not good defensively, but analytics tell you they’re the best defenders. That’s when analytics don’t make sense at all.”
(Via @ShamsCharania ) |
Analytics vs. Eye Test 🚨 ‼️ |
Players and pundits (especially the older ones) are always going to push back against this stuff. It used to be that way in baseball, too. In the case of the NBA, part of the problem is that metrics answer a question that is different from the one that people care about the most. Defensive metrics do not tell you who is the "best" defender. They tell you who has the greatest defensive impact on the court. Those are different things. |
We all know who Embiid is talking about here. As long as the numbers continue to indicate Jokic is a top defender despite obvious deficiencies there's always going to be a justified skepticism in the metrics. Defensive analytics have come a long way but I think there's still a ways to go. _________________ 14-5-3-12 |
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nomoreshaq Star Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 5137
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Luka has played in 72/61/66/65/60 games in the past 5 seasons.
LeBron played in 79/80/79/78/78 games in his first 5 seasons.
Offensively, there are comparable. Defensively absolutely not.
However, in terms of durability, there's ZERO, and i repeat ZERO shot he has a "long" career like LeBron without some serious changes to his body.
LeBron is not only one of the most talented (and smartest), but he has a top 3 athletic peak of all time - I'd put him 1 or 2 actually but compounded with that, he is absolutely insane in terms of maintaining it. I'd even argue that he has done a better job at it than Kobe did (sans achilles which was 'random' Kobe was the best ever at doing it I think). |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:39 am Post subject: |
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nomoreshaq wrote: | Luka has played in 72/61/66/65/60 games in the past 5 seasons.
LeBron played in 79/80/79/78/78 games in his first 5 seasons.
Offensively, there are comparable. Defensively absolutely not.
However, in terms of durability, there's ZERO, and i repeat ZERO shot he has a "long" career like LeBron without some serious changes to his body.
LeBron is not only one of the most talented (and smartest), but he has a top 3 athletic peak of all time - I'd put him 1 or 2 actually but compounded with that, he is absolutely insane in terms of maintaining it. I'd even argue that he has done a better job at it than Kobe did (sans achilles which was 'random' Kobe was the best ever at doing it I think). |
You nailed it. Imo what Lebron does to take care of his body is unmatched. Brady is the closest, but he doesn’t have to run up and down the field for 35+ minutes.
I don’t think people realize what Lebron is doing is extremely rare. The sacrifice and discipline it takes and that’s on top of being in the 0.00000000001% of elite genetics. |
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nomoreshaq Star Player
Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 5137
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:43 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | nomoreshaq wrote: | Luka has played in 72/61/66/65/60 games in the past 5 seasons.
LeBron played in 79/80/79/78/78 games in his first 5 seasons.
Offensively, there are comparable. Defensively absolutely not.
However, in terms of durability, there's ZERO, and i repeat ZERO shot he has a "long" career like LeBron without some serious changes to his body.
LeBron is not only one of the most talented (and smartest), but he has a top 3 athletic peak of all time - I'd put him 1 or 2 actually but compounded with that, he is absolutely insane in terms of maintaining it. I'd even argue that he has done a better job at it than Kobe did (sans achilles which was 'random' Kobe was the best ever at doing it I think). |
You nailed it. Imo what Lebron does to take care of his body is unmatched. Brady is the closest, but he doesn’t have to run up and down the field for 35+ minutes.
I don’t think people realize what Lebron is doing is extremely rare. The sacrifice and discipline it takes and that’s on top of being in the 0.00000000001% of elite genetics. |
LeBron - Top 3 overall BBIQ
LeBron - Top 3 overall athleticism (if not #1)
LeBron - Top 3 body maintenance (if not #1)
LeBron - Top 3 talent (if not #1)
Luka might match him (MIGHT) on BBIQ and talent. LOL on athleticism and super LOL on body maintenance.
LeBron is Magic Johnson IQ + Wilt Chamberlain Athleticism + Kobe body maintenance + Michael Jordan talent.
Literally the archetype basketball player.
AND TO TOP IT OFF.
Squeaky clean career - zero "real" controversies.
No gambling crap, no sexual assault allegations, no "i had sex with 20,000 women", no arrests, no gang crap, no domestic abuse, no drugs, alcohol abuse. Good, solid family man by all accounts. The "worst" things he ever did were "the decision", his supposed stance on China and interrelated his supposed politics. Wow, whoop dee doo. |
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BILBJH Star Player
Joined: 23 Jul 2020 Posts: 5105
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:57 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | BILBJH wrote: | Luka vs. Lebron
The first five years.
Luka is outscoring him (check out the per 36), outrebounding him, making more dimes than young LBJ
I mean it's true that Luka could squander his talents like Shaq did but remember that half the people on this board are LBJ fans.
They can't look at the data objectively. |
Shaq squandered his talents? He had the most dominant 8-9 years of any player since Wilt. |
I was always team Shaq in the Kobe vs. Shaq battles... I don't deny his greatness but I admired Kobe's work ethic and I admire LBJ's work ethic compared to Shaq or Luka's so far.
The comments people say about Luka's defense vs. LBJ's is also valid.
I also think it was an accomplishment that LBJ got his team to the finals by beating a good Pistons team in 2007 when he was only 22 or 23.
I also agree Luka is unlikely to break LBJ's record.
But people need to examine what has happened so far before they automatically say there is no comparison between the two because there is. Luka hasn't won anything so far, it's true... but he's also outperforming LBJ by about 50% in the playoffs. Luka isn't playing in the trash Eastern conference where LBJ dominated for so many years.
If I were to guess, Luka will shine brightly like Shaq and burn out because of his bad physical habits... and he won't win titles like Shaq unless he finds a more compatible version of Kobe or Wade.
But if he gets his act together, who knows. |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Doubt anyone touches Lebron's record... certainly not in the load management / DNP / resting era. Not only are teams protecting their players, but players are injury prone and can't take the beating of an 82 game season. The pace inflation has something to do with that, but youngins are also being drafted into the NBA with broken bodies, courtesy of AAU ball, specialization and playing all year round. People are saying Wemby is the next big thing, but he'd be lucky to play 60 games a season. |
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BandwagonLBJhopper Star Player
Joined: 07 Feb 2020 Posts: 3563
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:36 am Post subject: |
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KindCrippler2000 wrote: | Doubt anyone touches Lebron's record... certainly not in the load management / DNP / resting era. Not only are teams protecting their players, but players are injury prone and can't take the beating of an 82 game season. The pace inflation has something to do with that, but youngins are also being drafted into the NBA with broken bodies, courtesy of AAU ball, specialization and playing all year round. People are saying Wemby is the next big thing, but he'd be lucky to play 60 games a season. |
What's crazy about this is you would think if anyone would be injury prone, it would have been Lebron. Because he came into the league out of high school playing huge minutes and carrying a ton of weight (260?) with a playing style where he was bouncing up and down the court all game long.
On top of making super long playoff runs over and over and over again.
Now he can't play a few weeks without getting hurt, but if you go back the dude was like an indestructible tank.
That is more genetics than anything no? He is just a super freak athlete. |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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BandwagonLBJhopper wrote: | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | Doubt anyone touches Lebron's record... certainly not in the load management / DNP / resting era. Not only are teams protecting their players, but players are injury prone and can't take the beating of an 82 game season. The pace inflation has something to do with that, but youngins are also being drafted into the NBA with broken bodies, courtesy of AAU ball, specialization and playing all year round. People are saying Wemby is the next big thing, but he'd be lucky to play 60 games a season. |
What's crazy about this is you would think if anyone would be injury prone, it would have been Lebron. Because he came into the league out of high school playing huge minutes and carrying a ton of weight (260?) with a playing style where he was bouncing up and down the court all game long.
On top of making super long playoff runs over and over and over again.
Now he can't play a few weeks without getting hurt, but if you go back the dude was like an indestructible tank.
That is more genetics than anything no? He is just a super freak athlete. |
Not including other leagues, James played a total of 107 games for his high school team in 4 years, averaging around 27 games a season. His schedule was pretty generous and they usually had 3-4 days of rest between games. He did play AAU, but I'm not sure if it was as cutthroat and brutal as it is today. Pre-social media was such a different era of basketball and competitiveness. Nowadays, 8 year olds are having mixtapes promoted on social media.
It helps that his mother wasn't one of those ultracompetitive soccer mom types. Parents have the responsibility to not overburden their kids with sports, but we're seeing the exact opposite taking place today. Everyone wants to churn out the next Tom Brady or Randy Johnson, but they don't realize those dudes didn't even specialize in their sports until during/after high school, and they weren't playing 365 days a year FFS. I reckon the same was true with Lebron.
Worth noting that even the GOATs like Lebron, Brady, Randy Johnson, Duncan played other sports, so they worked different muscle groups. Pretty sure rest and relaxation was in their schedule, too. Hell, Duncan was a swimmer before he even picked up a basketball at 15. Giannis was 13 when he played organized basketball, so that could explain why he recovers like wolverine. |
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drae Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Posts: 16144
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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BILBJH wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | BILBJH wrote: | Luka vs. Lebron
The first five years.
Luka is outscoring him (check out the per 36), outrebounding him, making more dimes than young LBJ
I mean it's true that Luka could squander his talents like Shaq did but remember that half the people on this board are LBJ fans.
They can't look at the data objectively. |
Shaq squandered his talents? He had the most dominant 8-9 years of any player since Wilt. |
I was always team Shaq in the Kobe vs. Shaq battles... I don't deny his greatness but I admired Kobe's work ethic and I admire LBJ's work ethic compared to Shaq or Luka's so far.
The comments people say about Luka's defense vs. LBJ's is also valid.
I also think it was an accomplishment that LBJ got his team to the finals by beating a good Pistons team in 2007 when he was only 22 or 23.
I also agree Luka is unlikely to break LBJ's record.
But people need to examine what has happened so far before they automatically say there is no comparison between the two because there is. Luka hasn't won anything so far, it's true... but he's also outperforming LBJ by about 50% in the playoffs. Luka isn't playing in the trash Eastern conference where LBJ dominated for so many years.
If I were to guess, Luka will shine brightly like Shaq and burn out because of his bad physical habits... and he won't win titles like Shaq unless he finds a more compatible version of Kobe or Wade.
But if he gets his act together, who knows. |
Yeah, I feel like we're all trying to be nice about it but Luka's bad physical habits (out of shape) and not having his act together are really some of the main reasons I feel (along with his lack of defense) |
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