Why does LeBron and AD continue to get a pass?
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Halflife
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 10:35 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
Halflife wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
Halflife wrote:
activeverb wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
A pass on what? Lebron is old, AD is an injury prone second banana, that is what we signed up for. Their window was 1.5-2 years and they got a Mickey Mouse trophy out of it. I haven’t expected them to be in the running for a trophy the past couple of seasons so they haven’t disappointed me. They sell tickets and the organization makes money so ownership is happy. I won’t criticize the pair because they are giving pretty much what I expect.


Harsh, but oddly accurate.


Except for the "Mickey Mouse" title part - on that he's entirely wrong, the title was arguably tougher than a normal title in particular due to Kobe's passing. But since it has been litigated endlessly elsewhere I'm not going to bother re-hashing it all over again here.

did they play Mickey Mouse for the ring? if not, it is a legit ring. don't let the clipper fan fool you. they choked even in Disneyland.



You have a group of fans here who, basically, want to pretend we didn't win the title because it's inconvenient to the narrative they want to push.

That's a sure sign that someone is just BSing -- they try to change reality to fit their narrative, rather than embrace a narrative that includes reality.

My view is pretty simple. Lebron and AD won a title that is just as valid as any other title in NBA history. If someone thinks the title is lesser in some way, I don't want to waste time listening to them.

Since the title, Lebron and AD have suffered lots of injuries, missed lots of games, and they may not have any more success from this point forward.

The recent (and possibly future) bad doesn't erase the past success. Again, that's just a narrative pushed by people who take a black-and-white view and want to pretend everything has been black during the Lebron/AD era.

nope. The universal term by the media, players etc is "Bubble title." Im sure some could argue the difficulty compared to others but that's debatable. especially now that we see bron/AD are unable to stay healthy for a traditional season. Even the year prior to AD bron broke down. Other players are on record of saying it was like a scrimmage, didn't want to be there etc. Like the Heat we were lucky to have coaches that embraced it while others were lackadaisical.

I don't agree with Mickey mouse, but because it was in Orlando I have heard it. we all acknowledge and count it, but to say it wasn't astericked is a little funny.

asterick as one of the toughest environment ever to be competed in? live in a closed loop for 3 months, can't see families, can't have normal life. i would argue you have to be mentally strong. Also the fact AD broke down the following year had a lot to do with playing in the Bubble for so long that his body didn't have time to recover. as i recall, AD and Lebron didn't have any injuries before they shut down the league, and we lost HCA all the way.
was there a big asterisk on the spurs title in 1999? the Raptors title in 2019? you know they have zero chance of beating the warriors if KD and Klay didn't get hurt. Lakers played everyone at their full health until the finals.


We can literally put an asterisk on most title runs. Hell even 2001, I even heard things like, "oh my goodness, maybe Derek Anderson could have made a difference to provide that 3rd scorer and guard Kobe"

2008 - Bynum/Ariza injury
2009 - what if Garnett was healthy?
2010 - what if Perkins was healthy?
2011 - what if Gasol didnt go through his personal issues and Shaq was healthy
2012 - Lockout year
2013 - Thunder out with Westbrook/Beverley injury
2014 - Nothing here
2015 - Love and Kyrie
2016 - Draymond
2017 - Nothing here
2018 - Nothing here
2019 - KD and Klay
2020 - Bubble
2021 - AD's injury
2022 - Nothing here

Like give me a break.....

unfortunately, injuries are historically part of the equation. A once-in-a-lifetime event where 2 guys who haven't proven they can stay healthy and compete without it is something else. Its great we got to hang it up and tie the Celtics.

Hopefully, this year we win another.

you are using the events happened after to prove something that didn't happen at the time. both of them played majority of 2020, and i have no reason to believe they would just suddenly break down.

this isn't a debate. We won.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:55 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
I watch the Golden Knights first, then the Blues and then the NBA. And I’m a Cardinals fan so I haven’t had the drought that the Dodgers had.

More important to me than Lebron/AD is ownership. If the organization sinks it will be because of them.


I get the Blues and Cardinals angle as same city and maybe you grew up in St. Louis. Golden Knights is weird though as they are really new and from Vegas.....hell why not be a Kings fan then seeing as they are LA and were owned by Jerry Buss at one point and they have built consistent winners since the Kopitar/Doughty era (and more likely than any of the LA teams to win it all again this year - LA Kings this year look extremely deadly and are more talented than either 2012 or 2014 with the same hard hat mentality from years past).


I’ve gone to some Kings games but no team in the NHL puts on the show the Knights do. The bright lights just seduce you.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:58 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
activeverb wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
A pass on what? Lebron is old, AD is an injury prone second banana, that is what we signed up for. Their window was 1.5-2 years and they got a Mickey Mouse trophy out of it. I haven’t expected them to be in the running for a trophy the past couple of seasons so they haven’t disappointed me. They sell tickets and the organization makes money so ownership is happy. I won’t criticize the pair because they are giving pretty much what I expect.


Harsh, but oddly accurate.


Except for the "Mickey Mouse" title part - on that he's entirely wrong, the title was arguably tougher than a normal title in particular due to Kobe's passing. But since it has been litigated endlessly elsewhere I'm not going to bother re-hashing it all over again here.

did they play Mickey Mouse for the ring? if not, it is a legit ring. don't let the clipper fan fool you. they choked even in Disneyland.



You have a group of fans here who, basically, want to pretend we didn't win the title because it's inconvenient to the narrative they want to push.

That's a sure sign that someone is just BSing -- they try to change reality to fit their narrative, rather than embrace a narrative that includes reality.

My view is pretty simple. Lebron and AD won a title that is just as valid as any other title in NBA history. If someone thinks the title is lesser in some way, I don't want to waste time listening to them.

Since the title, Lebron and AD have suffered lots of injuries, missed lots of games, and they may not have any more success from this point forward.

The recent (and possibly future) bad doesn't erase the past success. Again, that's just a narrative pushed by people who take a black-and-white view and want to pretend everything has been black during the Lebron/AD era.

nope. The universal term by the media, players etc is "Bubble title." Im sure some could argue the difficulty compared to others but that's debatable. especially now that we see bron/AD are unable to stay healthy for a traditional season. Even the year prior to AD bron broke down. Other players are on record of saying it was like a scrimmage, didn't want to be there etc. Like the Heat we were lucky to have coaches that embraced it while others were lackadaisical.

I don't agree with Mickey mouse, but because it was in Orlando I have heard it. we all acknowledge and count it, but to say it wasn't astericked is a little funny.


I know we have all been through this many times but the title is legit, every team in the playoffs had the same opportunity to win. But no doubt that the season deserves an asterisk, there was never a season like it before and never will be.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:12 am    Post subject:

Since when has AD gotten a pass from fans at large?

In fact, I'd argue the opposite: that the majority of fans don't give him enough credit, or they give him no credit at all. Just like the way Pau Gasol was treated 10-12 years ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:28 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
troy wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
A pass on what? Lebron is old, AD is an injury prone second banana, that is what we signed up for. Their window was 1.5-2 years and they got a Mickey Mouse trophy out of it. I haven’t expected them to be in the running for a trophy the past couple of seasons so they haven’t disappointed me. They sell tickets and the organization makes money so ownership is happy. I won’t criticize the pair because they are giving pretty much what I expect.


Harsh, but oddly accurate.


Except for the "Mickey Mouse" title part - on that he's entirely wrong, the title was arguably tougher than a normal title in particular due to Kobe's passing. But since it has been litigated endlessly elsewhere I'm not going to bother re-hashing it all over again here.

did they play Mickey Mouse for the ring? if not, it is a legit ring. don't let the clipper fan fool you. they choked even in Disneyland.


I expect any team that won it, some fans feel this way.

If a team never won it, it would be their pride and joy.

But none the less, 4 months off, shortened season, No home court advantage, no fans, no parade.

In the modern NBA.

I don't put too much stock in it, no matter who won it.

The banner still goes up, players still get a ring, so it's not a matter who thinks what is real.

It's real, I just personally don't put too much stock in it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:33 am    Post subject:

To the point of the thread.

Can't win with your 2 top players out.

No matter how constructed the team is.

Who do you wanna put that on? Them or ownership for investing in them?

I think it is easy to blame either one.

I feel The FO are on a better path now, so I commend them on that.

They seem to have grown.

As for this season, it isn't over yet.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:40 am    Post subject:

I wish not getting injured was as simple as a player not wanting to be injured, or telling them to not get injured
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:11 am    Post subject:

Since being a laker AD has played in: 62,36,40, and so far 46 games this season.

Lebron: 55,67,45,56, and so far this season 47 games.

AD just can’t be depended on…

If we can get a healthy playoff run out of him this season we have a chance to win one a chip, but it seems like that’s the narrative every season smh
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:30 am    Post subject:

AD makes it tough, incredible player when he's playing at a high level, arguably top 5 in the league, because he does it on both sides of the ball.

BUT AD seems to be missing a key trait we all hoped he would have and that is the desire to dominate, even when he's not injured he is very inconsistent in that regard....for me once you have that uber talent level that's what separates the real top flight players...jordan, kobe, magic, bird, and in this era curry, jah, emid etc they all have the desire to be a major presence every time they step on the court.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:59 am    Post subject:

In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:23 am    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season


This is very good post. I feel the exact same way. After our Finals season, there has been no positive flow with this team. Frustration over injuries. Frustration over players leaving. Frustration over bad signings. More injuries. More front office non-sense. Missing the postseason with so many talented players. The Westbrook nightmare. And now this, even more damned injuries, AD having a mental health crisis, Laker fans thinking the playin is guaranteed when it's absolutely not. It's just been more stressful than fun. And always, we pin our empty hopes on the same statement - just wait un (insert name) gets back, and...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:39 am    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season



But isn't this no "no duh"? I mean, who wouldn't have fun following a team with one of the best coaches in NBA history (Jackson, Riley), one or two goat level players in their prime, that wins two, three, or five rings?

There were other times that being a Lakers fan wasn't much fun. I'm thinking of the terrible Deng-Mosgov when Kobe was a shell of himself. That was just dreadful. But there were some other bad times in between the good times that people have more or less erased from their memories, because that's what people tend to do with bad times.

And I have to say the first year with AD and LeBron was a lot of fun up until the pandemic hit. That was a great team that was very enjoyable to watch. And after the pandemic hit, for me, the next two years weren't fun at all. And the Lakers and basketball really didn't matter much to me.

We are certainly in a frustrating time. That said, if we measure success and fun by some of our historically successful teams in the past, we might not be having any success or fun for a long long long time. We might not see a team like Showtime or the three-peat for decades or ever again for that matter.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:00 am    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
Since being a laker AD has played in: 62,36,40, and so far 46 games this season.

Lebron: 55,67,45,56, and so far this season 47 games.

AD just can’t be depended on…

If we can get a healthy playoff run out of him this season we have a chance to win one a chip, but it seems like that’s the narrative every season smh

This sums up the pass.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:44 am    Post subject:

PICKnPOP wrote:
In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season


If this season ends in no playoffs,

this post shuts down the thread and sums up Lebron and AD era.

If this season ends up in the playoffs, and winning a championship

We may have to revisit this post.

In fact, I'll even say if this season ends in a championship

It is one of the greatest comeback stories in sports history.

If not thee greatest.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:36 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season



But isn't this no "no duh"? I mean, who wouldn't have fun following a team with one of the best coaches in NBA history (Jackson, Riley), one or two goat level players in their prime, that wins two, three, or five rings?

There were other times that being a Lakers fan wasn't much fun. I'm thinking of the terrible Deng-Mosgov when Kobe was a shell of himself. That was just dreadful. But there were some other bad times in between the good times that people have more or less erased from their memories, because that's what people tend to do with bad times.

And I have to say the first year with AD and LeBron was a lot of fun up until the pandemic hit. That was a great team that was very enjoyable to watch. And after the pandemic hit, for me, the next two years weren't fun at all. And the Lakers and basketball really didn't matter much to me.

We are certainly in a frustrating time. That said, if we measure success and fun by some of our historically successful teams in the past, we might not be having any success or fun for a long long long time. We might not see a team like Showtime or the three-peat for decades or ever again for that matter.

So we should not measure a Lakers team with two superstars by our historically successful teams in the past? If we shouldn't measure against Showtime or 3peat, what level Laker team in the past is the standard we should measure against for success and fun? Are we hitting that now? Last year?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:45 am    Post subject:

Success for this version of the team to me, means getting to WCF. That means however we get there, two rounds of wins. Short of that hope (or fantasy), it's not a success. Maybe there'd be good hope for next season, or some, but this season would not be a success IMO with less than that result. Even the WCF finals result - given the age of Lebron, AD's health issues, and some competitor teams' prospects for improvement - would be just meeting expectations.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:48 am    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
In all honesty as fans we have been cheated. When lebron retires and AD is completely washed in a couple of seasons we are not going to look back fondly about the lebron era. Sure, we won a championship (possibly more), but for the most part we have been a losing team. This team has not been fun and has been more bad than good.


Showtime era was fun as a laker fan
Kobe/Shaq era was fun as a lakers fan.
Kobe/gasol era was fun as a laker fan

This is not fun. We are basically a losing team without the benefit of having a great draft pick and the hope for a brighter future. The only thing we’re hoping for is our two super stars to remain healthy long enough for us to make a run in the playoffs. Seems to be the story every season


If this season ends in no playoffs,

this post shuts down the thread and sums up Lebron and AD era.

If this season ends up in the playoffs, and winning a championship

We may have to revisit this post.

In fact, I'll even say if this season ends in a championship

It is one of the greatest comeback stories in sports history.

If not thee greatest.


we have Bron and AD? how is that a comeback? Last year to start the season we were favored. After the moves this years most on TV were saying we were getting to the 6th seed. Winning a championship would be amazing and not expected by most but we have been grossly underachieving.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:00 am    Post subject:

There is a huge void between the multiple championship teams that AD and LeBron are falling short of and where we have been the last 3 of 4 years.

Missed playoffs (No AD yet)
Won Championship
Play-in team, lost first round
Missed playoffs
Praying to make the play-in

It’s not like we’re getting to the playoffs and falling short in the second or third round. Three of the last four years we were in a position that no team in history has won a championship from. (6th seed is the lowest to win a ring, one time.)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:06 am    Post subject:

fortunately, the west is wide open. We only need AD and bron to be engaged for 16 games assuming we make play-in.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:15 am    Post subject:

focus wrote:

So we should not measure a Lakers team with two superstars by our historically successful teams in the past? If we shouldn't measure against Showtime or 3peat, what level Laker team in the past is the standard we should measure against for success and fun? Are we hitting that now? Last year?


People can do whatever they want, of course. Measure all future Lakers teams against the Minneapolis Lakers which won 5 rings in 6 years, if you like.

I'm just saying if someone only has fun watching a Lakers team that reaches a level of success of the Showtime and Threepeat years, that person may not be having much fun for a long, long, long, long time.

I understand and share the frustration of the injuries and missed games from Lebron and AD. I appreciate that's part of the risk of signing injury-prone, older players. That said, a Showtime/Threepeat level of success is a difficult benchmark because those successes were dependent partly on (1) luck and (2) conditions that gave us an advantage in getting players which no longer exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:32 am    Post subject:

I think fans are just tired of the injuries and the lack of knowing what this era of Lakers could have been.

We have Lebron and Anthony Davis. For awhile, we had Lebron, AD and Westbrook. All 3 of these players will be future hall of famers. We won a ring with Lebron and Davis. But subsequent to that, it's been injury after injury after injury, and we are left wondering what could have been?

Season after we won it all, if AD doesn't get hurt, how far could we have gone?
Next season, it we don't gut our roster and get Westbrook, how far could we have gone?
This season, with us now fighting for a playin spot, if Lebron doesn't get injured, how far up in the standings could we have ascended?

This Lebron/AD era of the Lakers will be remembered for its tragic loss of potential, and I think that is what bothers so many of us Laker fans.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:01 pm    Post subject:

troy wrote:
I think fans are just tired of the injuries and the lack of knowing what this era of Lakers could have been.

We have Lebron and Anthony Davis. For awhile, we had Lebron, AD and Westbrook. All 3 of these players will be future hall of famers. We won a ring with Lebron and Davis. But subsequent to that, it's been injury after injury after injury, and we are left wondering what could have been?

Season after we won it all, if AD doesn't get hurt, how far could we have gone?
Next season, it we don't gut our roster and get Westbrook, how far could we have gone?
This season, with us now fighting for a playin spot, if Lebron doesn't get injured, how far up in the standings could we have ascended?

This Lebron/AD era of the Lakers will be remembered for its tragic loss of potential, and I think that is what bothers so many of us Laker fans.


I look at it as availability is part of the package. So for Lebron it’s just the natural age catching up with him. Sucks that it started with us, but age 34 makes sense. He’s going to continue to sustain injuries tbh.

AD has always had a rep and this is one of his weaknesses. Just like with Kawhi, if you aren’t available can you really be considered the game’s best?

It’s an insult to Giannis or Jokic when people say Kawhi or KD are the best. No, part of being in the best player conversation is being available. Doesn’t have to be all 82 games, but you can’t miss 20+ either. Maybe Lebron would be the best player, but his age doesn’t allow him to be that available. Just the truth.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:24 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
troy wrote:
I think fans are just tired of the injuries and the lack of knowing what this era of Lakers could have been.

We have Lebron and Anthony Davis. For awhile, we had Lebron, AD and Westbrook. All 3 of these players will be future hall of famers. We won a ring with Lebron and Davis. But subsequent to that, it's been injury after injury after injury, and we are left wondering what could have been?

Season after we won it all, if AD doesn't get hurt, how far could we have gone?
Next season, it we don't gut our roster and get Westbrook, how far could we have gone?
This season, with us now fighting for a playin spot, if Lebron doesn't get injured, how far up in the standings could we have ascended?

This Lebron/AD era of the Lakers will be remembered for its tragic loss of potential, and I think that is what bothers so many of us Laker fans.


I look at it as availability is part of the package. So for Lebron it’s just the natural age catching up with him. Sucks that it started with us, but age 34 makes sense. He’s going to continue to sustain injuries tbh.

AD has always had a rep and this is one of his weaknesses. Just like with Kawhi, if you aren’t available can you really be considered the game’s best?

It’s an insult to Giannis or Jokic when people say Kawhi or KD are the best. No, part of being in the best player conversation is being available. Doesn’t have to be all 82 games, but you can’t miss 20+ either. Maybe Lebron would be the best player, but his age doesn’t allow him to be that available. Just the truth.


I wonder, too, if it's all been worth it? These frustrating injuries, the anxiety of wondering when our key guys will be back, or when one will be injured. Where are we really, as fans, right now? We're frantically hoping our team will make...the play-in. The play-in, which we currently don't qualify for. NBA champs a few years back, having Lebron and AD on this team, and what do we have to aspire for? The friggin play-in, and I've said it before, I still don't think we even make that.

And who are we waiting on for this? Lebron James. Lebron is our savior here. But do we not recognize that this man is PASSED 38 years old and on his way to 39? There are players in the NBA 20 years younger than Lebron. Lebron has had near constant injuries, year after year. And this is our savior?

How about Anthony Davis. Look at how he played during our Finals year. And look at him now. Fans don't realize how far this guy has dropped, not only in physical skill applications, but just the mental part of the game. We know quality big men. We see them on other teams. And then we see AD. What exactly do we have in that guy?

What are we, 4-5 years into these two guys? How many more years do we have with them? Is there any reason to think we're not going to get the same trial of frustration and anxiety next season? And the next?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject:

The early pages of the Lebron thread are hilarious. Someone predicted the Russell Westbrook trade on page 3 .

I think it comes with the territory, this thread is literally just excuse after excuse.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:28 pm    Post subject:

I think LG hates everyone at some point lol... well except Reaves, but wait for it.

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