Magic vs. Curry
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 7:47 am    Post subject:

WorthyNum1 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
WorthyNum1 wrote:


My original point was responding to your post, that it's not fair to compare Curry vs Doncic because Curry has a stacked team while Doncic did not.


I don't recall ever saying that, so you might be thinking of someone else.

I think it's fair to compare any players. But if I were comparing Curry and Doncic, I would take the quality of their teammates into account in the comparison.


https://www.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=194033&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

Your post on [Mon May 01, 2023 8:29 pm]

Quote:

And without question, Curry has played on some of the most stacked teams in NBA history. In fact, one of the knocks against Curry is that while he's won 4 rings, he's only won a single Finals MVP. That speaks to the high level of teammates he's had.

That doesn't negate Curry's accomplishments. But it's silly to say that Curry is better than Doncic simply because the Warriors were better than the Mavericks, ...


As I said, since the Showtime Lakers and the gunslinging Warriors are both stacked teams, we can leave out the teammates...


As I thought, I never said that it wasn't fair to compare Curry and Donclc. I just noted that you have to take the quality of their teammates into consideration i in their team accomplishments if you do compare them.

No worries. I frequently find that when people paraphrase what they think I've said, I disagree with their paraphrase but I'm fine with my original wording. The specifics of the language matter a lot.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 8:40 am    Post subject:

I think people underestimate is that there's a lot of 'stars' that have had supposed 'stacked' rosters for years and not won anything.

The Phoenix Suns roster is supposed to be 'stacked' and they made the Finals one year and haven't been back since. The Memphis Grizzlies were supposedly 'stacked', but they haven't done anything yet. The Boston Celtics are 'stacked' the. Embiid had a 76ers team with Butler, Harris, Simmons, Redick and himself and they didn't even make the Finals.

There's teams winning 60+ games a year and not even making the Finals. Takes a lot to even get there in the first place no matter what kind of team you have at this point.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:01 am    Post subject:

WorthyNum1 wrote:

Fair enough, McAdoo of the Lakers wasn't a HOF caliber player. His role from the bench was no match to the mid-70s MVP McAdoo.

However, the showtime Lakers were still stacked, if we carefully filter out the level of play of the HOFers.

Kareem - he's still an all-NBA first team up to 1985-86, and was still close to 20 ppg in the 1987 playoffs.
Wilkes - he's still at a prime level until 1983-84. His play deteriorated after suffering from the gastrointestinal virus near the end of the regular season, thus becoming a non-factor in the playoffs. So he's a significant contributor until the 1983 playoffs.
Worthy - he's a significant contributor from the 1984 playoffs until Magic retired.

So in other words, the help Magic got:

1980 - 1983 Kareem, Wilkes
1984 - 1987 Kareem, Worthy
1988 - 1991 Worthy


Thats a fair way to look at it, although you could probably split Kareem into 2 parts, the dominant one and the still great one, and then after that the pre retired one who didnt have much left. Kinda like this Lebron, hes still a 20ppg in the playoffs, but we can all see the difference to even 2020, let alone his prime. Or Klay on the Warriors, last season (and this too) hes 20ppg on great efficiency, but against us he looked much worse than those numbers indicate.

All NBA and All Defenaive are good ways to look at quality of the team too, but that doesnt account to strength of the role players who dont make those teams. For example, i think those 2016 Warriors were stacked and deep, but how can we tell that years later by just looking at numbers?
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:37 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
I think people underestimate is that there's a lot of 'stars' that have had supposed 'stacked' rosters for years and not won anything.

The Phoenix Suns roster is supposed to be 'stacked' and they made the Finals one year and haven't been back since. The Memphis Grizzlies were supposedly 'stacked', but they haven't done anything yet. The Boston Celtics are 'stacked' the. Embiid had a 76ers team with Butler, Harris, Simmons, Redick and himself and they didn't even make the Finals.

There's teams winning 60+ games a year and not even making the Finals. Takes a lot to even get there in the first place no matter what kind of team you have at this point.


Sure, a number of superteams have failed. So simply having a lot of talent around you doesn't guarantee success.

That said, it's not a coincidence that most of the guys on the GOAT short list were surrounded by a disproportionate amount of talent for the bulk of their careers. No one has amassed a significant amount of rings with mediocre teammates.

In addition, when people assess a team's talent, they tend to focus on each player in a vacuum, rather than how the individual pieces fit together, which can be just as important.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:39 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
WorthyNum1 wrote:

Fair enough, McAdoo of the Lakers wasn't a HOF caliber player. His role from the bench was no match to the mid-70s MVP McAdoo.

However, the showtime Lakers were still stacked, if we carefully filter out the level of play of the HOFers.

Kareem - he's still an all-NBA first team up to 1985-86, and was still close to 20 ppg in the 1987 playoffs.
Wilkes - he's still at a prime level until 1983-84. His play deteriorated after suffering from the gastrointestinal virus near the end of the regular season, thus becoming a non-factor in the playoffs. So he's a significant contributor until the 1983 playoffs.
Worthy - he's a significant contributor from the 1984 playoffs until Magic retired.

So in other words, the help Magic got:

1980 - 1983 Kareem, Wilkes
1984 - 1987 Kareem, Worthy
1988 - 1991 Worthy


Thats a fair way to look at it, although you could probably split Kareem into 2 parts, the dominant one and the still great one, and then after that the pre retired one who didnt have much left. Kinda like this Lebron, hes still a 20ppg in the playoffs, but we can all see the difference to even 2020, let alone his prime. Or Klay on the Warriors, last season (and this too) hes 20ppg on great efficiency, but against us he looked much worse than those numbers indicate.

All NBA and All Defenaive are good ways to look at quality of the team too, but that doesnt account to strength of the role players who dont make those teams. For example, i think those 2016 Warriors were stacked and deep, but how can we tell that years later by just looking at numbers?


We were definitely "stacked". Remember, we had gotten Worthy with the No.1 pick the season after a championship. We also had a DPOTY in Cooper, and even Magic's first running mate, Norm Nixon, was a one time all star.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:46 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
WorthyNum1 wrote:

Fair enough, McAdoo of the Lakers wasn't a HOF caliber player. His role from the bench was no match to the mid-70s MVP McAdoo.

However, the showtime Lakers were still stacked, if we carefully filter out the level of play of the HOFers.

Kareem - he's still an all-NBA first team up to 1985-86, and was still close to 20 ppg in the 1987 playoffs.
Wilkes - he's still at a prime level until 1983-84. His play deteriorated after suffering from the gastrointestinal virus near the end of the regular season, thus becoming a non-factor in the playoffs. So he's a significant contributor until the 1983 playoffs.
Worthy - he's a significant contributor from the 1984 playoffs until Magic retired.

So in other words, the help Magic got:

1980 - 1983 Kareem, Wilkes
1984 - 1987 Kareem, Worthy
1988 - 1991 Worthy


Thats a fair way to look at it, although you could probably split Kareem into 2 parts, the dominant one and the still great one, and then after that the pre retired one who didnt have much left. Kinda like this Lebron, hes still a 20ppg in the playoffs, but we can all see the difference to even 2020, let alone his prime. Or Klay on the Warriors, last season (and this too) hes 20ppg on great efficiency, but against us he looked much worse than those numbers indicate.

All NBA and All Defenaive are good ways to look at quality of the team too, but that doesnt account to strength of the role players who dont make those teams. For example, i think those 2016 Warriors were stacked and deep, but how can we tell that years later by just looking at numbers?


We were definitely "stacked". Remember, we had gotten Worthy with the No.1 pick the season after a championship. We also had a DPOTY in Cooper, and even Magic's first running mate, Norm Nixon, was a one time all star.


Sounds similar to MVP Curry, best SG Klay, DPOY green, Finals MVP Iguodala, COY Kerr, 73-9 vs 69-13 but only one of them add a prime MVP to the roster
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:53 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:


We were definitely "stacked". Remember, we had gotten Worthy with the No.1 pick the season after a championship. We also had a DPOTY in Cooper, and even Magic's first running mate, Norm Nixon, was a one time all star.


Nixon actually made two all-star teams. Excellent player with all-around skills, who was frequently one of the league leaders in assists. He a traditional point guard; very quick, very cocky, bristled about the lack of attention and respect he got. Kind of like a poor man's Chris Paul.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 10:01 am    Post subject:

Curry couldn’t handle this let alone a longer time ago
https://twitter.com/nicolemcmilllon/status/1657519522805587968?s=61&t=v2PoU5DoWGjJL0iZP_GTRQ
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 10:08 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
Yeah bringing up teammates isn't the way to go. Magic played with the arguable GOAT whom also happened to be The Greatest Center of all time.

Curry's never had "the greatest (position) of all time".

Magic having Kareem would have been like LeBron having Kobe.

And nobody can pretend that Curry's team that he won a Championship with last season was "Stacked" anyway.

No one's going to argue that the Showtime Lakers were better than the 2015 Warriors and the 2022 Warriors.

Heck people on this very forum were arguing that the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were a better team than the Steph/KD Warriors. So if the 2001 Lakers, and the Showtime Lakers were better teams than Curry ever had, then the argument on having "stacked" teams is a non-factor.

Batguano wrote:
Lock the thread, boys. Curry might’ve proved that he could win a championship without KD, but he CAN’T beat LeBron without KD when LeBron’s 2nd/3rd options are healthy.


This is the first time LeBron's ever beaten a healthy Warriors team in the Playoffs btw. But yes, if Klay Thompson(or whomever the 2nd best player on the team is) shoots 20% on wide open threes and their third Wiggins is injured and didn't play 90% of the season till the Playoffs started. Then yes, Steph can't single handedly overcome those odds

Here's the caveat. Neither would LeBron, Jordan, Kobe or Magic.


Fortunately for us, we are the Strength in Numbers team this season, where a different person can step up every night and drop 20+ whether off the bench or starting, regardless of what LeBron and AD are also doing.

This is our benefit. It's why D'Angelo Russell can save our season vs Memphis. It's why Lonnie Walker IV can save us from having to go to a Game 7 at Golden State. It's why we got Rui Hachimura, Austin Reaves, D'Angelo Russell, Lonnie Walker IV, etc. All those guys are capable of being 20+ guys on any given night, and then we've got AD and LBJ whom are gonna give us what they give us. The Lakers got two 18-20+ ppg scorers in the starting lineup not named Anthony Davis or LeBron James. The Lakers additionally got two 15-20+ ppg scorers on the bench on top of that. This is why while LeBron missed the majority of the 2nd half of the season the Lakers were able to go on a run that enabled us to make the play-in. That should have told every pundit how dangerous we are.

Whereas the Warriors? They go by wherever Steph goes. If Steph had missed the 2nd half of the season, they'd never have made the playoffs. Curry had to average 30/5/6 just to carry that Warriors team to a 10-8 record to make the play-in over the last 18 games. Whereas The Lakers in the last 18 games of the season went 13-5, and 10 of those were without LeBron. 7-3 without LeBron, 6-2 with him). That should have put everyone on notice, but the media underestimated us still.


And like I said, I wanted the Warriors over the Kings. Not just because as a Lakers fan you NEVER root for the Kings, but because we're a bad matchup for the Warriors this season. Not because of LeBron James, but because of Anthony Davis. They have no answer for him and their entire gameplan was based around trying to stop him. They couldn't Nor did they have an answer for our depth.

When Darvin Ham swapped out Vanderbilt in the starting lineup for the last game the Warriors had no answer. With Vanderbilt they could cheat off defending him. and try to stop others, which allowed us to go off singularly, DLO could go off because they had to single cover, Reaves could go off because they had to single cover. Because if they don't AD and LeBron are in a mismatch.

Brilliant coaching and a team with much more depth.

I don't think people understood how scary this Lakers team would be with all the depth they had AS WELL as a top 3 defense post all-star break despite LeBron not playing a majority of that.

Now they know. Now the Nuggets claim they want us so they can beat us. Well Memphis said the same thing. So we'll see what happens now.


Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year. He was Magics teammate for 10 seasons, and made 4 All-NBA first teams, plus 2 2nd teams. He was 2nd best on his own team during that time, and often 3rd best as well.

Currys last seasons team is absolutely stacked. He had an all-star teammate being 3rd option on offense behind him and Klay. He had probably the best 6th man coming off the bench giving them 17 poins on great efficiency. Their team was deep and they had many weapons. RELATIVE TO WHO THEY BEAT, they were absolutely stacked, and thats more important to look at than you simply comparing if 1985 Lakers were better than 2022 Warriors.

When you look at how stacked the teams are, you need to look at teams they face. 1987 Celtics, 1988 Pistons, 1985 Celtics, 1982 and 1980 Sixers. Even the lost Finals against 1984 Celtics, 1991, Bulls, 1989 Pistons or 1983 Sixers. These are ALL TIME GREAT teams. The 2015 Cavs without Love and Irving arent close to that, so even if Curry didnt have "4 HOFers", he doesnt need that much firepower against a deplated team. 2016 they lost to that same team healthy, and even tho they were hurt too, it wasnt anything close to being without your 2nd and 3rd best player alltogether. 2022 Celtics arent as good as 2022 Warriors, they barely escaped the east against Middleton less Bucks and Heat missing Lowry for the beginning of the series. Warriors were the better team going into the series, every single time last season. Not to take away from them, props for winning that chip, but lets not pretend this is something extraordinary

When did Steph beat Lebrons healthy team as the 1st option? Count in the play in game too, and it never happened. Klays TS in this series was 48%. Go back into the playoffs each year and you will find teams winning with their 2nd option shooting that way. This is not the 1st time ever someone shot bad

Last season Warriors were like that too, or you forgot Wiggins in G5 of the Finals last year, or in G3 at Dallas? Klay in G5 vs Dallas and G6 vs Memphis? Pooles 30 in G1 vs Denver, 29 in G2? 31 in G1 vs Memphis, 27 in G3? You will find most championship teams have other guys step up and win games, its rare to find one guy "carrying" by himself.

Our 1 is Davis tho, we go as far as Davis carries us. Or you think we beat the Warriors without him? Or Memphis or Minnesota? This is nothing new that the team goes as far as the superstar takes them so again, why is Curry special in that?

The rest i agree, we have a great team and can definitely go all the way. Not because James is playing 2018 level basketball, but because everyone around his is also playing well and he can rest. If we were relying on him, i think he wouldnt last past the 1st round
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 12:05 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:

Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year.


In addition to winning an MVP award during his time with Magic, Kareem finished in the top 5 in MVP voting four other times. He led the league in scoring one of those years. He led the league in blocked shots.

Sure there were a few years where he came in behind Moses Malone in all-NBA team voting, but so what? He was still a GOAT-level player for the first 5 years he spent with Magic, although he was a shell of himself by the end.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 1:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:

Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year.


In addition to winning an MVP award during his time with Magic, Kareem finished in the top 5 in MVP voting four other times. He led the league in scoring one of those years. He led the league in blocked shots.

Sure there were a few years where he came in behind Moses Malone in all-NBA team voting, but so what? He was still a GOAT-level player for the first 5 years he spent with Magic, although he was a shell of himself by the end.


He never averaged 24 points or 9 rebounds after 1981. Sure he was good, but that wasnt the level of play that earned him GOAT consideration. He never led the league in scoring after Wilt retired.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 1:58 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:

He never averaged 24 points or 9 rebounds after 1981. Sure he was good, but that wasnt the level of play that earned him GOAT consideration.


We obviously have very different views on this. I think if you take away Kareem's accomplishments during the Showtime years no one would be talking about him as the GOAT. That's cool -- I don't feel we all need to hold the same opinion or need to go back and forth endlessly when it's clear neither person's opinion is going to change. Cheers.
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 2:08 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:

He never averaged 24 points or 9 rebounds after 1981. Sure he was good, but that wasnt the level of play that earned him GOAT consideration.


We obviously have very different opinions about how good Kareem was during the first five years he played with Magic. That's cool.


4 seasons before Magic got there

26/14/4.7/3.6

The 5 years youre talking about

23.6/9/3/2.6

If you go from 81 how i said above, and look at the next 5 years, before he averaged 17 in 1987

22.5/7.5/3/2


Thats with the best and one of the most willing passers ever as his teammate, who shot less than 13 times per game, while averaging 10 assists. Between 81 and 87, he shot 12 times and averaged 12 assists. So it wasnt like MJ came into his team and took away his shots


Still a great player, but not prime Kareem anymore. Its fine disagreeing, but im right here
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2023 9:12 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:

Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year.


In addition to winning an MVP award during his time with Magic, Kareem finished in the top 5 in MVP voting four other times. He led the league in scoring one of those years. He led the league in blocked shots.

Sure there were a few years where he came in behind Moses Malone in all-NBA team voting, but so what? He was still a GOAT-level player for the first 5 years he spent with Magic, although he was a shell of himself by the end.


Yeah, exactly. Sad that Kareem still gets underrated to this day.
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:24 am    Post subject:

To go back to the 50s, 60s, 70s.

The first wasn't an offensive foul (can you guess why?)
The second wasn't a defensive foul(because a play on the ball was made first and what happened after didn't matter).



Halflife wrote:
Curry couldn’t handle this let alone a longer time ago
https://twitter.com/nicolemcmilllon/status/1657519522805587968?s=61&t=v2PoU5DoWGjJL0iZP_GTRQ


Kobe only did that for one game against Melo to try to make a statement. But immediately abandoned that strategy for the rest of the series because in his own words "Melo's a big boy." and he needed to conserve his energy in other ways or he'd have gotten worn out.

Curry deals with defense like this.



We haven't seen a player get defended like this since mid 2000s Kobe, where at the beginning or end of shot clocks he would draw an entire team's defensive attention.

Image 1

Image 2


Speaking of Kobe: Kobe Bryant says Steph Curry is the 'toughest' player to guard in NBA
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2023 10:46 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:

Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year.


In addition to winning an MVP award during his time with Magic, Kareem finished in the top 5 in MVP voting four other times. He led the league in scoring one of those years. He led the league in blocked shots.

Sure there were a few years where he came in behind Moses Malone in all-NBA team voting, but so what? He was still a GOAT-level player for the first 5 years he spent with Magic, although he was a shell of himself by the end.


Yeah, exactly. Sad that Kareem still gets underrated to this day.


Yeah, we're talking about a 7 year stretch where he finished in top 5 in MVP voting 5 times, even though he might have lost some votes to his teammate Magic. I am not saying he was the same in those years as he was when he was 21, but he was still amazing.

I mean it's not by chance that 37- and 38-year-old Kareem was getting more MVP votes than a lot of young guys who would go into the Hall of Fame.
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 11:11 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:

Kareem isnt the GOAT, and he was in his 30s during Magics reign. He wasnt as good as prime 70s Kareem, and in the later stages he declined even more. Last MVP he wkn was Magics rookie year.


In addition to winning an MVP award during his time with Magic, Kareem finished in the top 5 in MVP voting four other times. He led the league in scoring one of those years. He led the league in blocked shots.

Sure there were a few years where he came in behind Moses Malone in all-NBA team voting, but so what? He was still a GOAT-level player for the first 5 years he spent with Magic, although he was a shell of himself by the end.


When did Kareem lead the league in scoring while he was with Magic?
NEVER

Kareem is an odd case. His individual success came mostly in the 70s, with his MVPs, scoring titles, rebounding titles, etc. and that established him as a series GOAT candidate. Of course, that was way before Jordan's show in the 90s. Kareem's team success came mostly in the 80s with the Showtime Lakers, when the individual accolades not comparable to his own in the 70s. However, based on his role on the showtime Lakers alone, he wouldn't be considered a GOAT: 5 titles, but the 3rd best player in two of them.
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 9:55 pm    Post subject:

Magic 5 Rings > Curry 4 Rings. Taken out by a fellow Lakers team ….
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 11:57 pm    Post subject:

Magic > Curry

End of story.
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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2023 5:18 am    Post subject:

WorthyNum1 wrote:


Kareem is an odd case. His individual success came mostly in the 70s, with his MVPs, scoring titles, rebounding titles, etc. and that established him as a series GOAT candidate. Of course, that was way before Jordan's show in the 90s. Kareem's team success came mostly in the 80s with the Showtime Lakers, when the individual accolades not comparable to his own in the 70s. However, based on his role on the showtime Lakers alone, he wouldn't be considered a GOAT: 5 titles, but the 3rd best player in two of them.


Kareem was 32 years old when Magic and Showtime started. No one on the goat short list would still be in the running for goat based only on their accomplishments from age 32 on.

But sure, Kareem is unique among goat guys in that his individual accolades and team accomplishments mostly happened in different parts of his career.

That said, there were plenty of individual accomplishments for Kareem during the showtime era. He won a finals mvp. He was on the all NBA team five times during showtime. He finished in top five in MVP voting four times.
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 1:01 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
WorthyNum1 wrote:


Kareem is an odd case. His individual success came mostly in the 70s, with his MVPs, scoring titles, rebounding titles, etc. and that established him as a series GOAT candidate. Of course, that was way before Jordan's show in the 90s. Kareem's team success came mostly in the 80s with the Showtime Lakers, when the individual accolades not comparable to his own in the 70s. However, based on his role on the showtime Lakers alone, he wouldn't be considered a GOAT: 5 titles, but the 3rd best player in two of them.


Kareem was 32 years old when Magic and Showtime started. No one on the goat short list would still be in the running for goat based only on their accomplishments from age 32 on.

But sure, Kareem is unique among goat guys in that his individual accolades and team accomplishments mostly happened in different parts of his career.

That said, there were plenty of individual accomplishments for Kareem during the showtime era. He won a finals mvp. He was on the all NBA team five times during showtime. He finished in top five in MVP voting four times.


One of those all-NBA first teams came in year 17, and he was SI Sportsman of the Year in 1985. He really won 1980 finals MVP too.
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