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Hanging from Rafters Star Player

Joined: 31 Jul 2018 Posts: 5651
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 10:55 am Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | ocho wrote: | In comparing the team to last year at this point, keep in mind at that it was right around now when we started ripping off wins (I believe we won 21 of our last 30 games) in large part because of a player who is no longer here catching fire. That mid-Jan to April stretch included wins over the Thunder (twice) Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, Timberwolves, and Cavs. Does it feel to anyone that we are about to replicate this and have a similar type of run? The final stretch from March on we’ve got the Clippers twice, the Thunder twice, the Nuggets twice, the Rockets twice, the Bucks twice, the Celtics and the Knicks. We are 11-17 against +.500 teams which is the worst among the 10 west playoff/in seeds. Best of luck to us. |
We went 20-10 to close the season. We mostly beat bad-to-tanking teams. When we beat good teams, it's mostly because they were resting up for a playoff run. That's not some kind of impossible stretch, frankly for any of the top 10 in the West. For example, did you expect the Kings to go 9 of their last 10?
Second, I would compare how you felt at 27-25 to how you'll feel at 52 games this season. I'm willing to bet that after we punted on the deadline, our collective optimism for the 2024 squad wasn't particularly high either.
Third, we tend to win when Bron and AD are aggressive enough to draw fouls. That's how we eek out wins over good teams. We're able to set our defense against them. There's a requisite aggressiveness and GAF that only seems to come after the AS break with them. This is viscerally true in both their style of play and effort level. Plus, there is enough plausible upside with this squad, between Dalton's shooting variance, Vando coming back, another possible upgrade or two at the deadline, etc.
That said, if they punt again at the deadline, this might be a 2022 situation where they just let go of the rope. Like if we don't get a playable backup C, I could see AD's plantar fascia and LeBron's foot really start to act up. |
Nah, go back and check to be sure. To close 21-10 last season the Lakers had some impressive wins against much more than tanking or resting teams. The wins were numerous (8-3 iirc) against top 4 teams from both conferences during a time when Bos/NYK/Cleve/Mil were jockeying for playoff position. Wins against Min/OKC/Clips were also during a time when those teams were fighting for home court.
Don’t dismiss it retroactively, it was an impressive run. Again, go back and check it out for yourself if you disagree. Once it’s viewed again it should be obvious. _________________ When it’s a reasonable possibility, I expect the Lakers to go after a ship like it can’t be denied. I haven’t seen a respectable effort by the Front Office for the last two off seasons nor the last trade deadline. What is going on? |
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levon Franchise Player

Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 14154
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Hanging from Rafters wrote: | levon wrote: | ocho wrote: | In comparing the team to last year at this point, keep in mind at that it was right around now when we started ripping off wins (I believe we won 21 of our last 30 games) in large part because of a player who is no longer here catching fire. That mid-Jan to April stretch included wins over the Thunder (twice) Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, Timberwolves, and Cavs. Does it feel to anyone that we are about to replicate this and have a similar type of run? The final stretch from March on we’ve got the Clippers twice, the Thunder twice, the Nuggets twice, the Rockets twice, the Bucks twice, the Celtics and the Knicks. We are 11-17 against +.500 teams which is the worst among the 10 west playoff/in seeds. Best of luck to us. |
We went 20-10 to close the season. We mostly beat bad-to-tanking teams. When we beat good teams, it's mostly because they were resting up for a playoff run. That's not some kind of impossible stretch, frankly for any of the top 10 in the West. For example, did you expect the Kings to go 9 of their last 10?
Second, I would compare how you felt at 27-25 to how you'll feel at 52 games this season. I'm willing to bet that after we punted on the deadline, our collective optimism for the 2024 squad wasn't particularly high either.
Third, we tend to win when Bron and AD are aggressive enough to draw fouls. That's how we eek out wins over good teams. We're able to set our defense against them. There's a requisite aggressiveness and GAF that only seems to come after the AS break with them. This is viscerally true in both their style of play and effort level. Plus, there is enough plausible upside with this squad, between Dalton's shooting variance, Vando coming back, another possible upgrade or two at the deadline, etc.
That said, if they punt again at the deadline, this might be a 2022 situation where they just let go of the rope. Like if we don't get a playable backup C, I could see AD's plantar fascia and LeBron's foot really start to act up. |
Nah, go back and check to be sure. To close 21-10 last season the Lakers had some impressive wins against much more than tanking or resting teams. The wins were numerous (8-3 iirc) against top 4 teams from both conferences during a time when Bos/NYK/Cleve/Mil were jockeying for playoff position. Wins against Min/OKC/Clips were also during a time when those teams were fighting for home court.
Don’t dismiss it retroactively, it was an impressive run. Again, go back and check it out for yourself if you disagree. Once it’s viewed again it should be obvious. |
Like I said, I think we can go on the same run this year and so can a multitude of teams. It doesn't have any predictive power towards how we'll do in the playoffs, nor does it have any real analytical value about how good JJ is vs Darvin. This roster is so transparently deficient that it's boringly obvious to me what's keeping it from contention. The results are basically noise to me. |
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Hanging from Rafters Star Player

Joined: 31 Jul 2018 Posts: 5651
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | Hanging from Rafters wrote: | levon wrote: | ocho wrote: | In comparing the team to last year at this point, keep in mind at that it was right around now when we started ripping off wins (I believe we won 21 of our last 30 games) in large part because of a player who is no longer here catching fire. That mid-Jan to April stretch included wins over the Thunder (twice) Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, Timberwolves, and Cavs. Does it feel to anyone that we are about to replicate this and have a similar type of run? The final stretch from March on we’ve got the Clippers twice, the Thunder twice, the Nuggets twice, the Rockets twice, the Bucks twice, the Celtics and the Knicks. We are 11-17 against +.500 teams which is the worst among the 10 west playoff/in seeds. Best of luck to us. |
We went 20-10 to close the season. We mostly beat bad-to-tanking teams. When we beat good teams, it's mostly because they were resting up for a playoff run. That's not some kind of impossible stretch, frankly for any of the top 10 in the West. For example, did you expect the Kings to go 9 of their last 10?
Second, I would compare how you felt at 27-25 to how you'll feel at 52 games this season. I'm willing to bet that after we punted on the deadline, our collective optimism for the 2024 squad wasn't particularly high either.
Third, we tend to win when Bron and AD are aggressive enough to draw fouls. That's how we eek out wins over good teams. We're able to set our defense against them. There's a requisite aggressiveness and GAF that only seems to come after the AS break with them. This is viscerally true in both their style of play and effort level. Plus, there is enough plausible upside with this squad, between Dalton's shooting variance, Vando coming back, another possible upgrade or two at the deadline, etc.
That said, if they punt again at the deadline, this might be a 2022 situation where they just let go of the rope. Like if we don't get a playable backup C, I could see AD's plantar fascia and LeBron's foot really start to act up. |
Nah, go back and check to be sure. To close 21-10 last season the Lakers had some impressive wins against much more than tanking or resting teams. The wins were numerous (8-3 iirc) against top 4 teams from both conferences during a time when Bos/NYK/Cleve/Mil were jockeying for playoff position. Wins against Min/OKC/Clips were also during a time when those teams were fighting for home court.
Don’t dismiss it retroactively, it was an impressive run. Again, go back and check it out for yourself if you disagree. Once it’s viewed again it should be obvious. |
Like I said, I think we can go on the same run this year and so can a multitude of teams. It doesn't have any predictive power towards how we'll do in the playoffs, nor does it have any real analytical value about how good JJ is vs Darvin. This roster is so transparently deficient that it's boringly obvious to me what's keeping it from contention. The results are basically noise to me. |
I’ll have to admit, I didn’t even consider the rest of your post. Once you falsely mischaracterized the 21-10 run it undermined all creditability. If unable to identify that initially, then unwilling to acknowledge it after being pointed out, it’s just not worth even engaging in whatever else there is because it could be just as off base. _________________ When it’s a reasonable possibility, I expect the Lakers to go after a ship like it can’t be denied. I haven’t seen a respectable effort by the Front Office for the last two off seasons nor the last trade deadline. What is going on? |
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Zillethai Star Player

Joined: 22 Dec 2017 Posts: 2571
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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OK after watching the JJ post game presser after the Clippers loss, he basically trashes his squad... while praising the Clippers.
If morale was low... its sure to be even lower now. He obviously has no experience leading men |
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ThreePointBomber Star Player


Joined: 14 May 2010 Posts: 3478 Location: Worldwide
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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MJST wrote: | ThreePointBomber wrote: | Lakers are ranked 27th in three point attempts.
The NBA champion Boston Celtics lead the league.
Success leaves clues....
Whether it is coaching or team construction this is awful. |
That's why getting rid of your best high volume three point shooter is a bad idea.
But who knows. Maybe it would have been a slump that lasted the entire season, and maybe Redick will start DFS and he'll get 5 threes a game and make them at a 41% clip and Rui will be moved to the bench. And maybe Gabe Vincent will go on a season long hot streak from three where he shoots 40% from three on high volume for the rest of the season. Maybe. |
I am a DLO fan too. The trade statistically has been bad for the Lakers. _________________ The most important shot in basketball. |
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1995Lakers Star Player

Joined: 26 Aug 2020 Posts: 6198
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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This dude is NOT it. Lacks substance and thinks he is smarter than he is while being an arrogant douche who WILL get his players to tune him out. On the surface, there are a lot of similarities with the bad version of Pat Riley....the difference being Pat Riley actually had substance and Pat Riley ultimately knew when to STFU and listen. The players are obviously already starting to tune him out and are frankly giving up. The Lakers frankly would have beaten the Clippers had they been in the right mindset but the low morale combined with lack of effort doomed them. Redick from what I see is definitively worse than Del Harris and reaching Randy Pfund/Darvin Ham/Mike Brown/Mike D'Antoni level |
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Halflife Franchise Player

Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 20079
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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ThreePointBomber wrote: | MJST wrote: | ThreePointBomber wrote: | Lakers are ranked 27th in three point attempts.
The NBA champion Boston Celtics lead the league.
Success leaves clues....
Whether it is coaching or team construction this is awful. |
That's why getting rid of your best high volume three point shooter is a bad idea.
But who knows. Maybe it would have been a slump that lasted the entire season, and maybe Redick will start DFS and he'll get 5 threes a game and make them at a 41% clip and Rui will be moved to the bench. And maybe Gabe Vincent will go on a season long hot streak from three where he shoots 40% from three on high volume for the rest of the season. Maybe. |
I am a DLO fan too. The trade statistically has been bad for the Lakers. |
but that's dlo- on paper or the box score- he should be highly regarded. The thing is no one likes or wants the dude. _________________ https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDfvXWXvpeb/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ== |
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Lakeshow23_ Star Player

Joined: 02 May 2021 Posts: 1167
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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ThreePointBomber wrote: | MJST wrote: | ThreePointBomber wrote: | Lakers are ranked 27th in three point attempts.
The NBA champion Boston Celtics lead the league.
Success leaves clues....
Whether it is coaching or team construction this is awful. |
That's why getting rid of your best high volume three point shooter is a bad idea.
But who knows. Maybe it would have been a slump that lasted the entire season, and maybe Redick will start DFS and he'll get 5 threes a game and make them at a 41% clip and Rui will be moved to the bench. And maybe Gabe Vincent will go on a season long hot streak from three where he shoots 40% from three on high volume for the rest of the season. Maybe. |
I am a DLO fan too. The trade statistically has been bad for the Lakers. |
The Celtics starting 5 also play defense. DLO doesn't. |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20152
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | tox wrote: | ocho wrote: | In comparing the team to last year at this point, keep in mind at that it was right around now when we started ripping off wins (I believe we won 21 of our last 30 games) in large part because of a player who is no longer here catching fire. That mid-Jan to April stretch included wins over the Thunder (twice) Celtics, Knicks, Mavs, Timberwolves, and Cavs. Does it feel to anyone that we are about to replicate this and have a similar type of run? The final stretch from March on we’ve got the Clippers twice, the Thunder twice, the Nuggets twice, the Rockets twice, the Bucks twice, the Celtics and the Knicks. We are 11-17 against +.500 teams which is the worst among the 10 west playoff/in seeds. Best of luck to us. |
correct
the offense at this point also looked better under Ham than Redick (I believe in this stretch the Lakers were the #3 offense), in part because of DLO but the entire team was firing on all cylinders |
Prior to the deadline they were 20th in ORTG, whereas we've been 13th so far despite these offensive lulls. Yet nothing changed at the deadline from a personnel perspective. It's pretty clear the team just upped their GAF. That means crisper execution and gameplan preparedness too. We've seen this team play pickup and we've also seen them play professional basketball, under Ham, JJ, AND Vogel. |
I strongly disagree with this narrative but none of us are in the locker room. I think it's simply that the Lakers fixed their playbook. The offense under Ham about this time onwards looked much better than anything I saw under Vogel, even during the championship season, so I don't buy that narrative |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20152
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Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not arguing JJ is worse than Ham btw, Ham mismanaged last year. But credit is given where credit is due, Ham had the offense humming. |
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levon Franchise Player

Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 14154
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 7:48 am Post subject: |
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And JJ had the offense humming until the playcalling rate plummeted and we went back to our "get us through the season" tendencies. I expect us on our best behavior post AS break as well.
And the free throw thing is absolutely real. Our pace goes up and our FTA go up. There are marked differences in their level of desperation when they actually need to be desperate. |
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MJST Retired Number


Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 28970
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | I'm not arguing JJ is worse than Ham btw, Ham mismanaged last year. But credit is given where credit is due, Ham had the offense humming. |
Ham only had the offense humming after he was forced to use the lineups that he had been intentionally avoiding putting out there so he could play favorites. It wasn't a brilliant strategical move, his faves were about to get traded if he didn't do the right thing. So his hand was forced and then the team benefitted. If Ham had it his way he'd have continued to ride it out the way he was doing and we'd have suffered for it. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20152
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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levon wrote: | And JJ had the offense humming until the playcalling rate plummeted and we went back to our "get us through the season" tendencies. I expect us on our best behavior post AS break as well.
And the free throw thing is absolutely real. Our pace goes up and our FTA go up. There are marked differences in their level of desperation when they actually need to be desperate. |
The argument is unfalsifiable. You claim the problem is the players won't focus but that they will after the AS break. I don't buy that this is a given. Time will tell. |
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levon Franchise Player

Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 14154
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | levon wrote: | And JJ had the offense humming until the playcalling rate plummeted and we went back to our "get us through the season" tendencies. I expect us on our best behavior post AS break as well.
And the free throw thing is absolutely real. Our pace goes up and our FTA go up. There are marked differences in their level of desperation when they actually need to be desperate. |
The argument is unfalsifiable. You claim the problem is the players won't focus but that they will after the AS break. I don't buy that this is a given. Time will tell. |
I'm just going off the last two seasons, last season in particular. I don't think it's a coincidence that everyone ups their game after that highly publicized season milestone. Like I don't think Chris Jent suddenly figured out how to be an elite offense. Gameplan discipline, adjustments, effort. Basically, they started playing playoff-level basketball early just so they can make the playoffs. |
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tox Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 20152
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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The offense didn't kick in after the ASB, it kicked in right about a year ago. It seems like a "random" place to kick in... except that we were transitioning from a 4-in/1-out offensive scheme to a 5-out one (at least as the primary formation). Seemed like a few things happened at once -- the playbook started to find some real stuff that worked (AD post + help beaters as well as a lot more PnR action), AR figured out 5-out, DLO started playing to his capability,
Ham stopped playing dumb lineups (thanks Cam injury), and the entire team had a 3 month hot streak (shooting like 40% from 3 to balance out the ~32% they started at). I don't remember there being an effort thing but it's certainly possible LeBron/ AD had more mental focus when they locked in.
How much of that is replicable? Maybe some, but I doubt all or even most. I don't think the Lakers are going to end the season 24-10 like they did last year |
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levon Franchise Player

Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 14154
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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tox wrote: | The offense didn't kick in after the ASB, it kicked in right about a year ago. It seems like a "random" place to kick in... except that we were transitioning from a 4-in/1-out offensive scheme to a 5-out one (at least as the primary formation). Seemed like a few things happened at once -- the playbook started to find some real stuff that worked (AD post + help beaters as well as a lot more PnR action), AR figured out 5-out, DLO started playing to his capability,
Ham stopped playing dumb lineups (thanks Cam injury), and the entire team had a 3 month hot streak (shooting like 40% from 3 to balance out the ~32% they started at). I don't remember there being an effort thing but it's certainly possible LeBron/ AD had more mental focus when they locked in.
How much of that is replicable? Maybe some, but I doubt all or even most. I don't think the Lakers are going to end the season 24-10 like they did last year |
I think they'll end on whatever run it takes to make it into the playoffs. They're not going to replicate that stretch exactly -- there's more than one way to get a sustained run going. The past two years had vastly different circumstances but with very similar end-of-season outcomes.
I suspect a lot of things are going to magically start happening at once too. Between the Vando injury, Dalton's shooting variance, JJ's overswitching scheme, AD's subpar post play, and deadline upgrades, there's a lot of meat still left on this bone. |
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pjiddy Retired Number


Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 29934
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2025 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think I’ve seen enough to confidently say that JJ is the right coach for the post-Lebron future. He’ll improbably evoke confidence and competence while helping us gather low draft picks. And then he’ll be fired and we’ll make another bad hire. |
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Theseus Franchise Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 15778
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Team looked very prepared to play the Celtics, and you have to give that to the coach. Wasn't expecting a win, and we got a big one. Going forward will tell us more, but I like the job he has done as a whole so far. |
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Theseus Franchise Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2007 Posts: 15778
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Also, I like how he is starting to play AD alongside a center. Something we've been looking to see as a nice wrinkle against these bigger teams, good to see JJ adopting it. |
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Hanging from Rafters Star Player

Joined: 31 Jul 2018 Posts: 5651
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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It’s a downgraded team so far with Knecht for Prince and DFS for Dlo (last year’s version)…from what the previous coach had…competing for HCA instead of 10th in the play-in at this corresponding point in the seasons. I think that difference is mainly a result of better coaching.
I’m still concerned about some things…small ball rotations/bad defensive configurations/constant switching small on big without help…but that may be as much as a GM roster construction issue as a coaching deficiency. What I’ve especially liked is the preparation, except that 9-game stretch with end game snafus against Orl/Atl and +20pt blow outs to Denver/Phoenix/Miami/Minny. Otherwise tho, thumbs up 👍! _________________ When it’s a reasonable possibility, I expect the Lakers to go after a ship like it can’t be denied. I haven’t seen a respectable effort by the Front Office for the last two off seasons nor the last trade deadline. What is going on? |
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lar9149 Star Player

Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 2531
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2025 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Not looking so bad, last 3 wins double digit victories..2 were bad teams, but they are making them look bad. |
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levon Franchise Player

Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 14154
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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 9:11 am Post subject: |
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We're now 19th in net rtg. Same date last year we were 19th in net rtg. Difference is we were 23-23 last season. |
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lakersfan8 Star Player

Joined: 27 May 2014 Posts: 3217
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Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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JJ tried a lineup with Vanderbilt and Hayes on the court together. The offense was pretty stagnant. If we trade Rui for another defensive center, this is something needs to be considered. |
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Zillethai Star Player

Joined: 22 Dec 2017 Posts: 2571
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Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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lakersfan8 wrote: | JJ tried a lineup with Vanderbilt and Hayes on the court together. The offense was pretty stagnant. If we trade Rui for another defensive center, this is something needs to be considered. |
Exactly...Should be painfully obvious we get rid of Rui, our offense is going to suffer. |
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miggz23 Star Player

Joined: 29 Nov 2018 Posts: 8923
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