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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
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 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | BTW: if you are going to continue to "asterisk" the 2020 championship, even though the players said it was a lot harder, it's only fair that we start saying Kobe's record is:
***2
after all, everyone knows the first 3 championships were Shaq's. |
LeBron’s asterisks:
*2012: Asterisk shortened season because of NBA lockout
*2013: Bailed out by Ray Allen 3 when the Spurs had it won
*2016: Draymond suspension, Bogut injury, hobbled Steph, bailed out by Kyrie in Game 7 (LeBron shot 9/24)
*2020: Bubble shortened season with break in between and playing glorified scrimmages with no crowd. |
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1995Lakers
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Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 4902
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | BTW: if you are going to continue to "asterisk" the 2020 championship, even though the players said it was a lot harder, it's only fair that we start saying Kobe's record is:
***2
after all, everyone knows the first 3 championships were Shaq's. |
LeBron’s asterisks:
*2012: Asterisk shortened season because of NBA lockout
*2013: Bailed out by Ray Allen 3 when the Spurs had it won
*2016: Draymond suspension, Bogut injury, hobbled Steph, bailed out by Kyrie in Game 7 (LeBron shot 9/24)
*2020: Bubble shortened season with break in between and playing glorified scrimmages with no crowd. |
Are we really going to do this???
Then do we need to say 2009 title was an asterisk because we all know the best team in the East were the Celtics that started the year 27-2 with a markedly improved Rondo and Perkins to round out their big 3 until Garnett got a knee injury???? Had they played healthy Boston that year in the Finals, that could have been anyone's finals and very well could have been the best of the Lakers-Celtics rivalry. A weakened Garnett the following year with Boston smacked the Magic easily that had swept the first two series entering the Eastern Conference Finals.
How about 2010 where Artest "saved" Kobe's legacy with the shot and Pau actually had a good game whereas Kobe shot 6 for 24 and was taking stupid shots (especially early in the game) because he couldnt control his nerves. Oh yea asterisk because Garnett was clearly not himself and not fully recovered from his knee injury from the year before.
You could literally make an asterisk for anything. These asterisks are dumb. |
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 40369
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | BTW: if you are going to continue to "asterisk" the 2020 championship, even though the players said it was a lot harder, it's only fair that we start saying Kobe's record is:
***2
after all, everyone knows the first 3 championships were Shaq's. |
LeBron’s asterisks:
*2012: Asterisk shortened season because of NBA lockout
*2013: Bailed out by Ray Allen 3 when the Spurs had it won
*2016: Draymond suspension, Bogut injury, hobbled Steph, bailed out by Kyrie in Game 7 (LeBron shot 9/24)
*2020: Bubble shortened season with break in between and playing glorified scrimmages with no crowd. |
Are we really going to do this???
Then do we need to say 2009 title was an asterisk because we all know the best team in the East were the Celtics that started the year 27-2 with a markedly improved Rondo and Perkins to round out their big 3 until Garnett got a knee injury???? Had they played healthy Boston that year in the Finals, that could have been anyone's finals and very well could have been the best of the Lakers-Celtics rivalry. A weakened Garnett the following year with Boston smacked the Magic easily that had swept the first two series entering the Eastern Conference Finals.
How about 2010 where Artest "saved" Kobe's legacy with the shot and Pau actually had a good game whereas Kobe shot 6 for 24 and was taking stupid shots (especially early in the game) because he couldnt control his nerves. Oh yea asterisk because Garnett was clearly not himself and not fully recovered from his knee injury from the year before.
You could literally make an asterisk for anything. These asterisks are dumb. |
I'm going to put an asterisk on all 3 of you for going down this rabbit hole.
* |
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Japago
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Joined: 21 Jun 2018
Posts: 1820
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Man, Kobe over LeBron isn't even a discussion anymore amongst people who actually discuss these things passionately and do all the research with stats. You'll get laughed at in general NBA talk places online.
I don't think some people here are ready for the fact that more and more people are talking about Steph > Kobe in the all-time rankings.
I wouldn't put him there yet, but they are both around the bottom top 10/just below top 10 area. |
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Zillethai
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Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Posts: 1302
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Japago wrote: | Man, Kobe over LeBron isn't even a discussion anymore amongst people who actually discuss these things passionately and do all the research with stats. You'll get laughed at in general NBA talk places online.
I don't think some people here are ready for the fact that more and more people are talking about Steph > Kobe in the all-time rankings.
I wouldn't put him there yet, but they are both around the bottom top 10/just below top 10 area. |
Yeah I got Steph, KD, right on Kobe's heels for that bottom 10 or so slot. He is the gatekeeper for the top 10 all time. Giannis, Jokic, Luka, etc all have to out perform him which is a high bar, in order to break that 10 IMO |
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1995Lakers
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Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 4902
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| Zillethai wrote: | | Japago wrote: | Man, Kobe over LeBron isn't even a discussion anymore amongst people who actually discuss these things passionately and do all the research with stats. You'll get laughed at in general NBA talk places online.
I don't think some people here are ready for the fact that more and more people are talking about Steph > Kobe in the all-time rankings.
I wouldn't put him there yet, but they are both around the bottom top 10/just below top 10 area. |
Yeah I got Steph, KD, right on Kobe's heels for that bottom 10 or so slot. He is the gatekeeper for the top 10 all time. Giannis, Jokic, Luka, etc all have to out perform him which is a high bar, in order to break that 10 IMO |
Thats funny, I had my list above which isnt top 10 all time but I believe top 10 in the past 20 years and I got KD and then Steph right behind Kobe as well. I actually had Jokic above Kobe but thats only thinking from the perspective of sustained peak, which is a little different from a top 10 list which could/should include all achievements throughout a career. Obviously in a list focused more towards achievements, Shaq should be nowhere near #1. In a list geared towards sustained peak and who would you pick first, second, third etc, he would be ranked a lot higher. To be honest, in either list though, I have KD and Steph behind Kobe. |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 12811
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Shaq is the reason I became Laker's fan btw. Still remember the Shaq attack commercials. No offense to Kobe but Y2K Shaq was one of the most dominating seasons ever. To this day, there's still no one in the NBA where if he caught the ball under the hoop, it's an automatic two points or two missed free throws...lol.
Shaq proved he could win without Kobe and Kobe proved he could win without Shaq so I wouldn't give one more credit than the other for the three championships they had shared together.
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Curry with 1 Finals MVP, needing KD (and the most stacked team of all time) for 2 of his 4 rings, 0 All-Defense selections, and blowing a 3-1 Finals lead after winning a record 73 games over Kobe? 
Don’t even get me started on KD who’s been on MULTIPLE stacked/super teams and only has 2 rings on the uber-stacked Warriors to show for it.
Some of you just really hate Kobe I guess… |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | Shaq is the reason I became Laker's fan btw. Still remember the Shaq attack commercials. No offense to Kobe but Y2K Shaq was one of the most dominating seasons ever. To this day, there's still no one in the NBA where if he caught the ball under the hoop, it's an automatic two points or two missed free throws...lol.
Shaq proved he could win without Kobe and Kobe proved he could win without Shaq so I wouldn't give one more credit than the other for the three championships they had shared together. |
Ummm…
Except that when Shaq “won without Kobe” he did it as the clear cut 2nd banana/sidekick to Wade. And Kobe won 2 as the clear cut go-to-guy/1st option with a lesser player than Wade in Pau.
Crazy bias trying to equate their post-breakup championship accomplishments as being the same. |
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lakersfever714
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Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 12811
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Shaq is the reason I became Laker's fan btw. Still remember the Shaq attack commercials. No offense to Kobe but Y2K Shaq was one of the most dominating seasons ever. To this day, there's still no one in the NBA where if he caught the ball under the hoop, it's an automatic two points or two missed free throws...lol.
Shaq proved he could win without Kobe and Kobe proved he could win without Shaq so I wouldn't give one more credit than the other for the three championships they had shared together. |
Ummm…
Except that when Shaq “won without Kobe” he did it as the clear cut 2nd banana/sidekick to Wade. And Kobe won 2 as the clear cut go-to-guy/1st option with a lesser player than Wade in Pau.
Crazy bias trying to equate their post-breakup championship accomplishments as being the same. |
Yea but Wade wasn't as good as Kobe, right? So Shaq won with a player lesser than Kobe.
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Los Angeles Lakers 2025 NBA Champions!! Go JJ! |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfever714 wrote: | | Batguano wrote: | | lakersfever714 wrote: | Shaq is the reason I became Laker's fan btw. Still remember the Shaq attack commercials. No offense to Kobe but Y2K Shaq was one of the most dominating seasons ever. To this day, there's still no one in the NBA where if he caught the ball under the hoop, it's an automatic two points or two missed free throws...lol.
Shaq proved he could win without Kobe and Kobe proved he could win without Shaq so I wouldn't give one more credit than the other for the three championships they had shared together. |
Ummm…
Except that when Shaq “won without Kobe” he did it as the clear cut 2nd banana/sidekick to Wade. And Kobe won 2 as the clear cut go-to-guy/1st option with a lesser player than Wade in Pau.
Crazy bias trying to equate their post-breakup championship accomplishments as being the same. |
Yea but Wade wasn't as good as Kobe, right? So Shaq won with a player lesser than Kobe. |
Shaq won 1 championship without Kobe as a 2nd option with a greater player than Pau.
Kobe won 2 championships without Shaq as a 1st option with a lesser player than Wade.
Not sure how it’s so difficult to understand or what kind of weird roundabout argument you’re trying to make…
And Wade is still at worst the 4th greatest SG of all time (with an argument for 3rd over West) |
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Halflife
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P.K.
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Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 30194
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2024 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Of the top 50 scorers of all time (as of 2015/2016 season), Kobe’s shooting % was 44th – if you remove the Centers, Lebron was 6th and Kobe was 27th.
Tom Haberstroh: I'll put him at 14th. I'm not a "count the ringzzz" guy because 'chips rely so much on things beyond a player's control (front office, coaching, teammates, injuries, etc). Bryant is one of the best scorers ever, but he wasn't efficient. Case in point: He's missed 502 more field goal attempts than any other player in NBA history. And counting. (as of 12/2015)
Stats are not Kobe's friend. One of the reasons he's ranked below so many of the greats.
_________________
LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI |
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Zillethai
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Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Posts: 1302
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | Of the top 50 scorers of all time (as of 2015/2016 season), Kobe’s shooting % was 44th – if you remove the Centers, Lebron was 6th and Kobe was 27th.
Tom Haberstroh: I'll put him at 14th. I'm not a "count the ringzzz" guy because 'chips rely so much on things beyond a player's control (front office, coaching, teammates, injuries, etc). Bryant is one of the best scorers ever, but he wasn't efficient. Case in point: He's missed 502 more field goal attempts than any other player in NBA history. And counting. (as of 12/2015)
Stats are not Kobe's friend. One of the reasons he's ranked below so many of the greats. |
And thats why Kobe fans dont like to talk about stats. Or they say things like "stats dont matter" or "Lebron was stat padding" They say this because Lebron beats him in every single stat category except free throws. Lebron's FG percentage is hovering over 50 percent. Jordan is at 49% But of course Kobe extremists will say "all Lebron does is dunk" lol.
And then you bring up MVPs and Kobe zealots will say "its just a popularity contest" or "Kobe should have won 5 MVPs" You cant reason with these guys |
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Lakeshow23_
Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 May 2021
Posts: 748
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Zillethai wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | Greatest Heat player ever: wade
Greatest laker player ever : Kobe
Greatest cavs player ever : mark price
Crazy how good the klutch, bronze pr machine is. They brainwashed a loud group of 20 something’s to believe a guy who jumped to another man’s team, and begged another all-star to join him is in the conversation. That same guy who needed a bubble to help get his ring count up just to match the most iconic player currently in steph. However, most people know that bubble is code for *. They just fear klutch. We know why espn does it. They need content. They are dying and have resorted to stealing from the podcast world.
Facts are this. The top 4 in the last 20 is:
Kobe
TD
Shaq
Steph
Not debatable. |
And this is why no one takes the Kobe fanbase seriously. Ridiculous, emotion driven takes like this. No active coach would leave LBJ out of a top 4 list. No active player. No team owner, or bbal analyst. Heck none of the guys you listed would exclude Lebron out of a Top 4 list. Its only you Kobe cult members.
Oh but thats right, all the mediums I listed are all on the Klutch payroll |
your top 4. Not mine. AI also said MJ/Kobe deserved their own suite. yes, PR's job is to flood platforms.
TD 5 rings> bron 3*
Kobe 5 rings > 3*
Steph real 4 rings >3*
Shaq 4 >3*
everyone knows Steph deserved oly MVP but the Klutch/bron PR machine was in full effect. That's his career. You can hold him in higher regard. That's great. I don't care about longevity numbers in any sport. Never have:
He was in an incredibly weak east (everyone here said it at the time, every platform wrote about it), and still needed to jump to another man's team and bring along another all-star just to get his ring count up and he still choked. He needed a bubble to get one here, and without it - 2 lotteries, 2 first round bounces-1 WCF sweep. there is no emotion here. Those are facts.
Taking 5 time champ Kobe out of the equation, knowing what I know today if Shaq, TD, Steph Bron are on the board I take TD or shaq 1st. then 3rd its between bron and Steph. That's tough.
funny how bron first fans act like there is no debate. brons greatness is a product of the times and in retrospect, when broken down will be viewed as overhyped.
Hes been here as long as he's been anywhere and guys like Dfish (bigger shots/bigger moments) are greater lakers than him. Go look at each guys resume and what they did for the franchise.
2024/25 TBD but as of today
he has one asterisked title to show for. |
Not sure why LeBron being a GOAT candidate upsets you so much. It's time to face reality, LeBron sits at a table with Mike and Kareem.. Kobe is in competition with Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Curry, Hakeem to round out the top 10. People will forever debate Lebron/MJ while nobody bothers to debate Kobe/MJ. Lebron is simply greater.
And thats okay. At the end of the day, they're all great players.. some are just better than others but that doesn't diminish anyone's greatness. It's important to be objective and not take these rankings so personally. |
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Robblake
Star Player
Joined: 05 Aug 2020
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Batguano wrote: | Curry with 1 Finals MVP, needing KD (and the most stacked team of all time) for 2 of his 4 rings, 0 All-Defense selections, and blowing a 3-1 Finals lead after winning a record 73 games over Kobe?
Don’t even get me started on KD who’s been on MULTIPLE stacked/super teams and only has 2 rings on the uber-stacked Warriors to show for it.
Some of you just really hate Kobe I guess… |
Yeah some of these ball fans are dumb af for even suggesting Steph is even close to Kobe’s heels all time. lol |
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Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Lakeshow23_ wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Zillethai wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | Greatest Heat player ever: wade
Greatest laker player ever : Kobe
Greatest cavs player ever : mark price
Crazy how good the klutch, bronze pr machine is. They brainwashed a loud group of 20 something’s to believe a guy who jumped to another man’s team, and begged another all-star to join him is in the conversation. That same guy who needed a bubble to help get his ring count up just to match the most iconic player currently in steph. However, most people know that bubble is code for *. They just fear klutch. We know why espn does it. They need content. They are dying and have resorted to stealing from the podcast world.
Facts are this. The top 4 in the last 20 is:
Kobe
TD
Shaq
Steph
Not debatable. |
And this is why no one takes the Kobe fanbase seriously. Ridiculous, emotion driven takes like this. No active coach would leave LBJ out of a top 4 list. No active player. No team owner, or bbal analyst. Heck none of the guys you listed would exclude Lebron out of a Top 4 list. Its only you Kobe cult members.
Oh but thats right, all the mediums I listed are all on the Klutch payroll |
your top 4. Not mine. AI also said MJ/Kobe deserved their own suite. yes, PR's job is to flood platforms.
TD 5 rings> bron 3*
Kobe 5 rings > 3*
Steph real 4 rings >3*
Shaq 4 >3*
everyone knows Steph deserved oly MVP but the Klutch/bron PR machine was in full effect. That's his career. You can hold him in higher regard. That's great. I don't care about longevity numbers in any sport. Never have:
He was in an incredibly weak east (everyone here said it at the time, every platform wrote about it), and still needed to jump to another man's team and bring along another all-star just to get his ring count up and he still choked. He needed a bubble to get one here, and without it - 2 lotteries, 2 first round bounces-1 WCF sweep. there is no emotion here. Those are facts.
Taking 5 time champ Kobe out of the equation, knowing what I know today if Shaq, TD, Steph Bron are on the board I take TD or shaq 1st. then 3rd its between bron and Steph. That's tough.
funny how bron first fans act like there is no debate. brons greatness is a product of the times and in retrospect, when broken down will be viewed as overhyped.
Hes been here as long as he's been anywhere and guys like Dfish (bigger shots/bigger moments) are greater lakers than him. Go look at each guys resume and what they did for the franchise.
2024/25 TBD but as of today
he has one asterisked title to show for. |
Not sure why LeBron being a GOAT candidate upsets you so much. It's time to face reality, LeBron sits at a table with Mike and Kareem.. Kobe is in competition with Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Curry, Hakeem to round out the top 10. People will forever debate Lebron/MJ while nobody bothers to debate Kobe/MJ. Lebron is simply greater.
And thats okay. At the end of the day, they're all great players.. some are just better than others but that doesn't diminish anyone's greatness. It's important to be objective and not take these rankings so personally. |
Tell me one thing: will you be here in 2026-2027? Or does your contract end with Lebron? |
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Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | Of the top 50 scorers of all time (as of 2015/2016 season), Kobe’s shooting % was 44th – if you remove the Centers, Lebron was 6th and Kobe was 27th.
Tom Haberstroh: I'll put him at 14th. I'm not a "count the ringzzz" guy because 'chips rely so much on things beyond a player's control (front office, coaching, teammates, injuries, etc). Bryant is one of the best scorers ever, but he wasn't efficient. Case in point: He's missed 502 more field goal attempts than any other player in NBA history. And counting. (as of 12/2015)
Stats are not Kobe's friend. One of the reasons he's ranked below so many of the greats. |
5 rings shooting poorly. Lebron with 4 in more years, more help, more finals and a way higher FG%. Lmao. The write loves to discount “rings” because it’s convenient for his narrative. How about I discount FG% to fit my narrative? What’s more important..how many rings a player has or their fg%?
If you’re going to use Kobe’s FG% against him you have to explain the end result rather than just numbers. It’s very easy to manipulate stats and be efficient. Stop shooting at the end of shot clocks. Stop shooting at the end of quarters. More layups/dunks. Pass up bad shots to keep fg% high etc etc. the end result is Kobe’s 44% led to a (bleep) more wins than most players on the all time list. There is no doubt that Kobe’s fg% is one of the stains on his career. He is the best bad shot maker of all time - but ask him or any Kobe or Laker fan and we would have it no other way because 5 rings in a ten year span is 5 rings.
It’s (bleep) hilarious to me that Lebron is the GOAT efficient player, best longevity, highest scorer, blah blah but still only
mustered 4 rings. You would think he would have AT LEAST 6 and if he could have just gone 6-4 in the finals he would have it. What does that tell you? Stats aren’t everything, sometimes you need actual skills and balls. Do you know what those are Elon Musk? You know when you’re speaking to your billion dollar client and all the numbers check out but you have to make that final close which takes more than just “the numbers say it makes sense”. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about Mr. CTO.
Stats are not everything. They are becoming more prominent, but even after the shift it is pretty obvious analytics and numbers are just tools. Very important tools, but tools nonetheless. |
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kwase
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 3083
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Snipes wrote: | | Lakeshow23_ wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Zillethai wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | Greatest Heat player ever: wade
Greatest laker player ever : Kobe
Greatest cavs player ever : mark price
Crazy how good the klutch, bronze pr machine is. They brainwashed a loud group of 20 something’s to believe a guy who jumped to another man’s team, and begged another all-star to join him is in the conversation. That same guy who needed a bubble to help get his ring count up just to match the most iconic player currently in steph. However, most people know that bubble is code for *. They just fear klutch. We know why espn does it. They need content. They are dying and have resorted to stealing from the podcast world.
Facts are this. The top 4 in the last 20 is:
Kobe
TD
Shaq
Steph
Not debatable. |
And this is why no one takes the Kobe fanbase seriously. Ridiculous, emotion driven takes like this. No active coach would leave LBJ out of a top 4 list. No active player. No team owner, or bbal analyst. Heck none of the guys you listed would exclude Lebron out of a Top 4 list. Its only you Kobe cult members.
Oh but thats right, all the mediums I listed are all on the Klutch payroll |
your top 4. Not mine. AI also said MJ/Kobe deserved their own suite. yes, PR's job is to flood platforms.
TD 5 rings> bron 3*
Kobe 5 rings > 3*
Steph real 4 rings >3*
Shaq 4 >3*
everyone knows Steph deserved oly MVP but the Klutch/bron PR machine was in full effect. That's his career. You can hold him in higher regard. That's great. I don't care about longevity numbers in any sport. Never have:
He was in an incredibly weak east (everyone here said it at the time, every platform wrote about it), and still needed to jump to another man's team and bring along another all-star just to get his ring count up and he still choked. He needed a bubble to get one here, and without it - 2 lotteries, 2 first round bounces-1 WCF sweep. there is no emotion here. Those are facts.
Taking 5 time champ Kobe out of the equation, knowing what I know today if Shaq, TD, Steph Bron are on the board I take TD or shaq 1st. then 3rd its between bron and Steph. That's tough.
funny how bron first fans act like there is no debate. brons greatness is a product of the times and in retrospect, when broken down will be viewed as overhyped.
Hes been here as long as he's been anywhere and guys like Dfish (bigger shots/bigger moments) are greater lakers than him. Go look at each guys resume and what they did for the franchise.
2024/25 TBD but as of today
he has one asterisked title to show for. |
Not sure why LeBron being a GOAT candidate upsets you so much. It's time to face reality, LeBron sits at a table with Mike and Kareem.. Kobe is in competition with Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Curry, Hakeem to round out the top 10. People will forever debate Lebron/MJ while nobody bothers to debate Kobe/MJ. Lebron is simply greater.
And thats okay. At the end of the day, they're all great players.. some are just better than others but that doesn't diminish anyone's greatness. It's important to be objective and not take these rankings so personally. |
Tell me one thing: will you be here in 2026-2027? Or does your contract end with Lebron? |
These guys have to be in their 20's. That's the only reason I could rationalize their thought process. If you're say, 26 and was born in 1998, you never saw Magic, Bird, MJ or any 80's and 90's players. By the time Kobe won his 5th ring, you were 11 and too young to be able to mentally process greatness. All you know is lebron, and to top it off you're still not mature enough to know when you're being conned, especially by the media. You just regurgitate the stuff they say. That's my only explanation, because saying a guy that lost 6 times in The Finals and tucked his tail and went to another man's team is the GOAT, or even anywhere near that status is laughable at best. I mean the guy has one dunk, no post moves, doesn't play defense and is a turnover machine. This site is just getting silly at this point. I don't know who the GOAT is, but I for damn sure know who it's not. |
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buduan
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Joined: 24 Feb 2002
Posts: 776
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlackMamba wrote: | | KG that high doesn't make sense. In that range, playoff success has to mean something, and Jokic, Wade, KD, and Dirk outshine him there. |
Look at their supporting casts, then look at what KG had to work with. KG is criminally underrated by most people. |
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buduan
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Joined: 24 Feb 2002
Posts: 776
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Lakeshow23_ wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | kobe>TD>Bron
5=5>3* |
Lebron- 8 MVP+FMVP
TD- 5 MVP+FMVP
Kobe- 3 MVP+FMVP |
One guy jumped to another mans team. brought an all star cuck just to get his ring count up. even his biggest cheerleader said he needed Miami to even be in the conversation (shannon sharpe). Same guy led the team to a bronze. Played in a ridiculously easy conference and needed a once in a generation pandemic to win a ring, otherwise without covid hes had
2 1st round bounces
2 lotteries
1 WCF sweep.
2 guys got 5, in a ridiculously hard conference. Both guys flirted with leaving but never did.
1 guy beat the most 50 win teams on his way.
5 out 7
5 out 6
3* out 10 |
This. |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| P.K. wrote: | Of the top 50 scorers of all time (as of 2015/2016 season), Kobe’s shooting % was 44th – if you remove the Centers, Lebron was 6th and Kobe was 27th.
Tom Haberstroh: I'll put him at 14th. I'm not a "count the ringzzz" guy because 'chips rely so much on things beyond a player's control (front office, coaching, teammates, injuries, etc). Bryant is one of the best scorers ever, but he wasn't efficient. Case in point: He's missed 502 more field goal attempts than any other player in NBA history. And counting. (as of 12/2015)
Stats are not Kobe's friend. One of the reasons he's ranked below so many of the greats. |
LOL. Funny how the "advanced stats" crowd reverts to regular stats when it's convenient for their argument. TS% is considered a way more accurate representation of a player's efficiency and Kobe's is on par with Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, other all-time greats. And no one has ever called those guys "inefficient chuckers". Kobe's "inefficiency" is GREATLY overstated, like many of the criticisms levied by people like you in an attempt to diminish his greatness.
Then you use an outdated stat from 2015 about missed FGA, when LeBron is literally 6 FGA away from passing Kobe in most missed FGA all time. And before you bring it up that he has played more games and taken more shots than Kobe, you were literally leaning on the "He has the most FGA misses in NBA history" argument (AND NOTHING MORE) to "prove" how inefficient he is. But of course you won't do the same when your precious LeBron breaks the record and leaves it in the dust...
Rings was literally one of the most important barometers for a player's greatness until Kobe started winning a bunch and LeBron started losing a bunch. Then the goalposts were moved, like they always are for LeBron.
But if rings don't matter, do you really think that LeBron would be in the GOAT discussion as strongly as he is now if he only had 1-2 rings, instead of 4...? Ask Wilt, West, Baylor if rings don't matter.
It matters... until it doesn't matter (aka when it's not convenient to your biased argument)
Last edited by Batguano on Thu Aug 22, 2024 3:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Lakeshow23_
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Joined: 02 May 2021
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kwase wrote: | | Snipes wrote: | | Lakeshow23_ wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Zillethai wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | Greatest Heat player ever: wade
Greatest laker player ever : Kobe
Greatest cavs player ever : mark price
Crazy how good the klutch, bronze pr machine is. They brainwashed a loud group of 20 something’s to believe a guy who jumped to another man’s team, and begged another all-star to join him is in the conversation. That same guy who needed a bubble to help get his ring count up just to match the most iconic player currently in steph. However, most people know that bubble is code for *. They just fear klutch. We know why espn does it. They need content. They are dying and have resorted to stealing from the podcast world.
Facts are this. The top 4 in the last 20 is:
Kobe
TD
Shaq
Steph
Not debatable. |
And this is why no one takes the Kobe fanbase seriously. Ridiculous, emotion driven takes like this. No active coach would leave LBJ out of a top 4 list. No active player. No team owner, or bbal analyst. Heck none of the guys you listed would exclude Lebron out of a Top 4 list. Its only you Kobe cult members.
Oh but thats right, all the mediums I listed are all on the Klutch payroll |
your top 4. Not mine. AI also said MJ/Kobe deserved their own suite. yes, PR's job is to flood platforms.
TD 5 rings> bron 3*
Kobe 5 rings > 3*
Steph real 4 rings >3*
Shaq 4 >3*
everyone knows Steph deserved oly MVP but the Klutch/bron PR machine was in full effect. That's his career. You can hold him in higher regard. That's great. I don't care about longevity numbers in any sport. Never have:
He was in an incredibly weak east (everyone here said it at the time, every platform wrote about it), and still needed to jump to another man's team and bring along another all-star just to get his ring count up and he still choked. He needed a bubble to get one here, and without it - 2 lotteries, 2 first round bounces-1 WCF sweep. there is no emotion here. Those are facts.
Taking 5 time champ Kobe out of the equation, knowing what I know today if Shaq, TD, Steph Bron are on the board I take TD or shaq 1st. then 3rd its between bron and Steph. That's tough.
funny how bron first fans act like there is no debate. brons greatness is a product of the times and in retrospect, when broken down will be viewed as overhyped.
Hes been here as long as he's been anywhere and guys like Dfish (bigger shots/bigger moments) are greater lakers than him. Go look at each guys resume and what they did for the franchise.
2024/25 TBD but as of today
he has one asterisked title to show for. |
Not sure why LeBron being a GOAT candidate upsets you so much. It's time to face reality, LeBron sits at a table with Mike and Kareem.. Kobe is in competition with Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Curry, Hakeem to round out the top 10. People will forever debate Lebron/MJ while nobody bothers to debate Kobe/MJ. Lebron is simply greater.
And thats okay. At the end of the day, they're all great players.. some are just better than others but that doesn't diminish anyone's greatness. It's important to be objective and not take these rankings so personally. |
Tell me one thing: will you be here in 2026-2027? Or does your contract end with Lebron? |
These guys have to be in their 20's. That's the only reason I could rationalize their thought process. If you're say, 26 and was born in 1998, you never saw Magic, Bird, MJ or any 80's and 90's players. By the time Kobe won his 5th ring, you were 11 and too young to be able to mentally process greatness. All you know is lebron, and to top it off you're still not mature enough to know when you're being conned, especially by the media. You just regurgitate the stuff they say. That's my only explanation, because saying a guy that lost 6 times in The Finals and tucked his tail and went to another man's team is the GOAT, or even anywhere near that status is laughable at best. I mean the guy has one dunk, no post moves, doesn't play defense and is a turnover machine. This site is just getting silly at this point. I don't know who the GOAT is, but I for damn sure know who it's not. |
I’ll reiterate, it shouldn’t be so difficult for you guys to face reality. It’s not 2011 anymore, we have a myriad of data that suggests Lebron is at worst one of the three greatest players to ever play.
The irony behind all of the hysteria and Klutch conspiracies is that you guys clearly think he is too— hence why you hold him to a standard you don’t hold other players. The hyperfixation on the 6 finals losses and other perceived blemishes while propping up guys like Bird, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan who have more blemishes on their resume without reaching the heights that Lebron did is an indication that you guys don’t think their careers is worth critical examination. |
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Batguano
Star Player
Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Zillethai wrote: | And thats why Kobe fans dont like to talk about stats. Or they say things like "stats dont matter" or "Lebron was stat padding" They say this because Lebron beats him in every single stat category except free throws. Lebron's FG percentage is hovering over 50 percent. Jordan is at 49% But of course Kobe extremists will say "all Lebron does is dunk" lol.
And then you bring up MVPs and Kobe zealots will say "its just a popularity contest" or "Kobe should have won 5 MVPs" You cant reason with these guys |
Kareem won MVP when his team missed the playoffs (and at the time was voted on by the players).
The MVP is voted on by media types, fat Brian Windhorse types that would get winded just walking from the sideline to center court. These people have agendas and biases just like any other human being.
Curry was the first unanimous MVP although the popular opinion is that it should've happened 3-4 times (or maybe even more) before that (MJ in 96, Shaq in 2000, KG in 2004, and LeBron in 2013 as examples). But there's always one joker that had an agenda or had to go against the grain and get cute with his voting.
Kobe didn't get MVPs in 2006 and 2007 "because no MVP should ever go to a lower seed". But then Westbrook gets the MVP in 2017 as a 6th seed. Constantly shifting criteria/narratives.
And even if you believe that Kobe doesn't deserve any additional MVPs (wouldn't surprise me if you're one of those "Chris Paul MVP truthers" that believe he got jipped in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it but got it as a "career achievement" pity award), who cares?
Unless you actually think that Steve Nash is greater all time than Shaq and/or Kobe because of his 2 MVP's to their 1... |
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Batguano
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 2363
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| Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2024 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakeshow23_ wrote: | | The irony behind all of the hysteria and Klutch conspiracies is that you guys clearly think he is too— hence why you hold him to a standard you don’t hold other players. The hyperfixation on the 6 finals losses and other perceived blemishes while propping up guys like Bird, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan who have more blemishes on their resume without reaching the heights that Lebron did is an indication that you guys don’t think their careers is worth critical examination. |
Absolutely WILD statement...
Seems like you're trying to be the keyholder on what is considered a career blemish and what is not. "Whaaaaaa, it's not FAIR for you to hold LeBron's 6 finals losses against him!!! But I'm gonna hold these other just as arbitrary occurrences as blemishes for these other guys' careers." |
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