Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.
That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.
Real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.
These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.
Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.
(article from 2016, after Kobe retired) _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
And thats why Kobe fans dont like to talk about stats. Or they say things like "stats dont matter" or "Lebron was stat padding" They say this because Lebron beats him in every single stat category except free throws. Lebron's FG percentage is hovering over 50 percent. Jordan is at 49% But of course Kobe extremists will say "all Lebron does is dunk" lol.
And then you bring up MVPs and Kobe zealots will say "its just a popularity contest" or "Kobe should have won 5 MVPs" You cant reason with these guys
Kareem won MVP when his team missed the playoffs (and at the time was voted on by the players).
The MVP is voted on by media types, fat Brian Windhorse types that would get winded just walking from the sideline to center court. These people have agendas and biases just like any other human being.
Curry was the first unanimous MVP although the popular opinion is that it should've happened 3-4 times (or maybe even more) before that (MJ in 96, Shaq in 2000, KG in 2004, and LeBron in 2013 as examples). But there's always one joker that had an agenda or had to go against the grain and get cute with his voting.
Kobe didn't get MVPs in 2006 and 2007 "because no MVP should ever go to a lower seed". But then Westbrook gets the MVP in 2017 as a 6th seed. Constantly shifting criteria/narratives.
And even if you believe that Kobe doesn't deserve any additional MVPs (wouldn't surprise me if you're one of those "Chris Paul MVP truthers" that believe he got jipped in 2008 and that Kobe didn't deserve it but got it as a "career achievement" pity award), who cares?
Unless you actually think that Steve Nash is greater all time than Shaq and/or Kobe because of his 2 MVP's to their 1...
There's way too much to unpack here. But the bolded was hilarious
The irony behind all of the hysteria and Klutch conspiracies is that you guys clearly think he is too— hence why you hold him to a standard you don’t hold other players. The hyperfixation on the 6 finals losses and other perceived blemishes while propping up guys like Bird, Kobe, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan who have more blemishes on their resume without reaching the heights that Lebron did is an indication that you guys don’t think their careers is worth critical examination.
Absolutely WILD statement...
Seems like you're trying to be the keyholder on what is considered a career blemish and what is not. "Whaaaaaa, it's not FAIR for you to hold LeBron's 6 finals losses against him!!! But I'm gonna hold these other just as arbitrary occurrences as blemishes for these other guys' careers."
Is it really a wild statement? You’re right about the arbitrary nature of some of these results and while wins and losses absolutely matter, the performances and context behind those results matter just as much (if not more).
That poster moaned about Lebron’s finals losses and in the same post hyped up Larry Bird. You don’t see how ridiculous that is? Here is Larry Bird’s playoff history courtesy of RealGM
Quote:
1980 - Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason
1981 - Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%. Tied 1-1 in the Finals against a Houston team that went 40-42 in the regular season, Bird proceeds to go 3-11 for 8 points, 3-11 for 8 points, and 5-16 for 12 points in the next three games. Incredibly, Cedric Maxwell plays so good (averaging 24ppg on 65% shooting) and the Rockets so bad (shooting 30%, 35% and 36% in the three games) that the Celtics win 2 of 3 anyway. If the team had had to rely on Bird's offense they would have lost in 5. Bird averages 15ppg on 42% shooting in the 6-game win.
1982 - PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason. Down 3-2 against the Sixers Bird goes 6-19 in Game 6, which the Celtics somehow win anyway due to a big game by McHale and an awful shooting performance by the Sixers. But he follows it up going 7-18 for 20 points in a Game 7 loss. Bird averages 18ppg on 41% shooting in the 7-game loss.
1983 - The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.
1984 - Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.
1985 - Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. Boston wins the ECF closeout game against Philly by 2 despite Bird shooting just 6-18 for 17 points (at least it was better than his 4-15 for 14 points in the game before). In the Finals Bird is unable to repeat the magic of the previous year, averaging 23ppg on 45% shooting and going 12-29 in the Game 6 loss that ends the series. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.
1986 - Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.
1987 - I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.
1988 - Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. Bird goes 4-17 for 16 points in the Game 6 loss that ends the series against the Pistons. He averages 20ppg on 35% shooting in the 6-game loss.
The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.
1989 - Injured doesn't play in the postseason.
1990 - Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA. Bird goes 11-25 in the Game 5 loss to end the series against the Knicks.
1991 - In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it. Bird goes 4-14 for 12 points in the Game 5 loss to end the series. That marks the 6th time in his career that Bird had ended the playoffs with a 20 point or fewer game on less than 40% shooting. He averages 13ppg on 38% shooting for the series.
1992 - Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.
So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.
With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.
You cant criticize Lebron’s playoff resume and prop up players that have a history of performing far worse in the playoff crucible. It just shows that you lack any objectivity.
Nobody will bat an eye if you think MJ is greater than Lebron but you expose yourself as deeply unserious when you argue that players like Bird and Shaq are better because “Lebron has 6 finals losses!!!”
Last edited by Lakeshow23_ on Fri Aug 23, 2024 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.
That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.
Real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.
These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.
Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.
(article from 2016, after Kobe retired)
Good thing the game isn't played on an Excel spreadsheet.
Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.
That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.
Real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.
These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.
Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.
(article from 2016, after Kobe retired)
Good thing the game isn't played on an Excel spreadsheet.
From the same article
The verdict
Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.
He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.
It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.
Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.
In terms of the share of MVP votes accumulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.
Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.
But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight.
While the game isn't played on an excel spreadsheet, the excel spreadsheet is used to compare Kobe's stats to his peers. Which is why most people that don't wear Kobe colored glasses rank him somewhere in the 9th-15th range.
15 years from now, Kobe will be shuffled down into the 15-20 range, the same way Dr J, Moses Malone, and Jerry West were shuffled down.
They were top 10 in the late 90s and early 2000s, and better players displaced them.
Kobe couldn't break into the top 7 best ever, and he'll get shuffled down..
matter of fact, he got shuffled down by LBJ moving into the #2 spot.
spreadsheet that.. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.
He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.
It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.
Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.
In terms of the share of MVP votes accumulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.
Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.
But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight.
While the game isn't played on an excel spreadsheet, the excel spreadsheet is used to compare Kobe's stats to his peers. Which is why most people that don't wear Kobe colored glasses rank him somewhere in the 9th-15th range.
15 years from now, Kobe will be shuffled down into the 15-20 range, the same way Dr J, Moses Malone, and Jerry West were shuffled down.
They were top 10 in the late 90s and early 2000s, and better players displaced them.
Kobe couldn't break into the top 7 best ever, and he'll get shuffled down..
matter of fact, he got shuffled down by LBJ moving into the #2 spot.
spreadsheet that..
Literally one man's opinion, just like yours. Cringey how you acted like copying and pasting some other nerd's work was some kind of mic-drop moment.
If you were in a room with the greatest NBA players/coaches of all time you would be absolutely laughed out of the room by most of them if you ever stood up there and said that Kobe was a Top 15-20 player. Grouping Kobe with West, Dr J and Moses...
This guy (and you in turn) have lost all credibility by saying stuff like that.
At some point winning and context does have to matter... Dr J won one ring as a 2nd banana to Moses. West was 1-8 in the Finals despite being paired up with Baylor most of his career and then having Wilt, and when he finally won Wilt was the Finals MVP. Moses also only has one ring. But I guess you put more value on media-voted regular season awards.
If Kobe had any of their careers championship-wise and accolades-wise you would absolutely take a dump down his throat at every turn. The fact that he is held to a completely different standard than those players mentioned tells me everything I need to know about where he truly ranks.
BTW, you're still a grown man that's made it his life's mission to police other grown men's opinion of where another grown man ranks in an entertainment sport. And it seems like you have an entire Google Docs archive of material ready to go at a moments notice in your eternal copy-and-paste war.
Last edited by Batguano on Fri Aug 23, 2024 1:26 am; edited 3 times in total
Seems like you tried to sneak in your own take with the original article.
That whole "Kobe will be shuffled down to 15-20" sounds more like your personal fantasy and desire than reality. You're going to be doing a lot cursing and punching of air in 15-20 years when Kobe is still highly regarded and talked about unlike those players you mentioned.
Yet another all-time great giving his opinion on Kobe's ranking. Seems like we get one of these almost weekly at this point...
NBACentral
@TheDunkCentral
Magic Johnson, when responding to a question, agreed that Kobe Bryant would have been in the GOAT discussion if he were alive:
Quote:
“Yeah, because we know Kobe belongs in that conversation even today. Kareem, Kobe and they all wore the purple and gold. So I think about what Kobe meant to the game of basketball worldwide, and to me offensively he’s the second-best dude in terms of at that shooting guard, small forward positions behind Michael Jordan. When you think about scoring-wise nobody could stop Kobe just like nobody could stop Michael Jordan.”
Seems like you tried to sneak in your own take with the original article.
That whole "Kobe will be shuffled down to 15-20" sounds more like your personal fantasy and desire than reality. You're going to be doing a lot cursing and punching of air in 15-20 years when Kobe is still highly regarded and talked about unlike those players you mentioned.
It was obvious where the article stopped, and my comments started...since I responded to the spreadsheet nonsense..
The only person that wouldn't have figured that out was you
go take a look at the greatest players lists...Dr J used to be top in the 7-10 range, now he's 14th
Moses Malone was also top 7-10...now he's 15th
Jerry West 10...now he's 19th
They were talked about the same way TD/Kobe/Shaq are now...damn good, but not the elite of the elite
Who replaced them: LBJ, TD, Kobe, Shaq, KD, Hakeem...
Steph, Giannis, Dirk pushed Jerry further down to 19th
Kobe's not in the same league as MJ/LBJ/KAJ/Magic/Russell/Bird/Wilt....
as a result, the next generation of guys , some of them will probably be good enough to make the top 10 if not the top 7...
then the 2nd tier guys get pushed down, just like Dr J, Moses, & Jerry did..
It's inevitable..
Players keep getting better, and as all those articles and stats analysis I've copied in repeatedly show - Kobe's not in the elite tier.
It took 15-20 years to push those 80s-90s (not quite elite) greats out of the top 10...
It's already been 8 years since Kobe retired...
down down down...it's inevitable. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
It was obvious where the article stopped, and my comments started...since I responded to the spreadsheet nonsense..
The only person that wouldn't have figured that out was you
go take a look at the greatest players lists...Dr J used to be top in the 7-10 range, now he's 14th
Moses Malone was also top 7-10...now he's 15th
Jerry West 10...now he's 19th
They were talked about the same way TD/Kobe/Shaq are now...damn good, but not the elite of the elite
Who replaced them: LBJ, TD, Kobe, Shaq, KD, Hakeem...
Steph, Giannis, Dirk pushed Jerry further down to 19th
Kobe's not in the same league as MJ/LBJ/KAJ/Magic/Russell/Bird/Wilt....
as a result, the next generation of guys , some of them will probably be good enough to make the top 10 if not the top 7...
then the 2nd tier guys get pushed down, just like Dr J, Moses, & Jerry did..
It's inevitable..
Players keep getting better, and as all those articles and stats analysis I've copied in repeatedly show - Kobe's not in the elite tier.
It took 15-20 years to push those 80s-90s (not quite elite) greats out of the top 10...
It's already been 8 years since Kobe retired...
down down down...it's inevitable.
- Ah. You were doing so good last couple of posts. Almost made it multiple posts without resorting to the usual condescending/ad hominem attacks/comments when you're feeling insecure about your ability to police these rankings on a message board.
- @ Kobe not being "in the same league" as Wilt/Magic/Russell/Bird. That is literally nothing more than your biased opinion which you are trying to pass off as irrefutable fact. The funniest part is that everyone of those players (with the exception of Wilt who died before Kobe established himself) would disagree with you and scoff at your opinion, because of how highly they think of Kobe.
- Again, this sounds more like your fantasy that you're trying to speak into existence. You're gonna' be in for a rude awakening when Kobe is still extremely relevant and talked about in 10 years. But I'm sure you'll still be riding your pale horse on your "Kobe Legacy Policing" lifelong quest making sure he doesn't get too overpraised.
Yet another all-time great giving his opinion on Kobe's ranking. Seems like we get one of these almost weekly at this point...
NBACentral
@TheDunkCentral
Magic Johnson, when responding to a question, agreed that Kobe Bryant would have been in the GOAT discussion if he were alive:
Quote:
“Yeah, because we know Kobe belongs in that conversation even today. Kareem, Kobe and they all wore the purple and gold. So I think about what Kobe meant to the game of basketball worldwide, and to me offensively he’s the second-best dude in terms of at that shooting guard, small forward positions behind Michael Jordan. When you think about scoring-wise nobody could stop Kobe just like nobody could stop Michael Jordan.”
More of Magic on Kobe here:
What do you expect Magic to say? He's not the GOAT? or I got Kobe ranked 11th all time? He'd get ran out of LA.
Players have agendas and their public profiles to worry about. Computers and spreadsheets dont. I also find it funny that guys that say Kobe needs to be in the GOAT conversation (Magic, Shaq, etc) dont have Kobe as the GOAT.
Bats you say people are trying to police Kobe's legacy to grown men and what not but the person who seems to do that the most is you. Its like your posts are 80-20 or 90-10 whenever you post on here have to do with Kobe.
What do you expect Magic to say? He's not the GOAT? or I got Kobe ranked 11th all time? He'd get ran out of LA.
Players have agendas and their public profiles to worry about. Computers and spreadsheets dont. I also find it funny that guys that say Kobe needs to be in the GOAT conversation (Magic, Shaq, etc) dont have Kobe as the GOAT.
Good thing the game isn’t played on a computer or spreadsheet. And even if it was, the computer doesn’t interpret the data by itself, it bases it’s conclusions of the data on equations that are created by humans (who all have agendas) who choose what is or isn’t weighted as important/impactful on the basketball floor.
By your logic Kareem also shouldn’t be in the GOAT conversation since those players also don’t have him as THE GOAT.
Last edited by Batguano on Fri Aug 23, 2024 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bats you say people are trying to police Kobe's legacy to grown men and what not but the person who seems to do that the most is you. Its like your posts are 80-20 or 90-10 whenever you post on here have to do with Kobe.
Go back and read the thread, buddy. It was the usual band of merry men that popped up to police other posters’ opinions that dared to rank Kobe too high. I just responded in kind because I’m tired of condescending people that feel they are the gatekeepers of irrefutable truth and make it their life’s mission to police other’s opinion. The only reason you’re singling me out and not the others is because you disagree with my take but agree with theirs. Pure tribalism. So spare me the lecture.
Steve Ilardi and Jeremias Engelmann have written a stats-based article comparing Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, and Predictive Real Plus-Minus (RPM) to judge between the two.
They begin by giving the nod to Bryant on the offensive side of the ball:
Kobe logged the higher Offensive RPM for 15 consecutive seasons from 1999-2000 through 2014-15. Over that span, Kobe boasts a huge lead in the metric, with an average of 5.2 to Duncan's 1.8.
And they also show that Duncan is the superior defender:
Even though Kobe has somehow earned more career All-Defensive honors than Duncan (nine to eight, if you're keeping score at home), Bryant's true defensive impact pales in comparison.
To put it bluntly, Kobe's defense is highly overrated. According to DRPM, he hasn't had a large positive impact on defense in a single one of the past 15 seasons. He actually has been among the league's poorest defensive wings for five years running.
But that doesn't mean that Tim and Kobe end in a 1-1 tie.
One of the most compelling features of RPM is the metric's ability to compare the relative impact of each player's offensive and defensive contributions. And that's important, because even though offense is usually what grabs our attention, defensive play is every bit as vital to team success
And then they look at total RPM (which combines both offense and defense) which brings us to the money line:
With the exception of two seasons (2005-06 and 2007-08) at the peak of Kobe's prime, Duncan has had the higher RPM value -- the greater positive impact on the game -- in each of their other seasons.
For most of those seasons, it hasn't even been that close. Since 1999, Duncan has had an average RPM of 6.97 to Kobe's 3.75, a decisive edge to Duncan.
In fact, they go on to conclude that Duncan is, "...quite simply the best player of his generation."
--------------------
On of the compelling reasons Kobe is consistently ranked AFTER TD in the vast majority of "greatest players ever" lists...
The vast majority of those lists (at least from reputable sources - not a few wingnuts), have it as: MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD (8th)
And Kobe is somewhere between 9th (a few of the lists) and as low as 15th.
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity. _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity.
The never ending quest of the Knights of GOATkeeping continues! March forth, gentlemen!
People like you have been spewing the advanced analytics crap since the 2000s and yet here we are in 2024 and Kobe’s legend is as strong as ever.
But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night. You’ll always have your Google Docs archive of copy-and-paste material to sooth your wounds while the majority of the world continues to remember and celebrate Kobe for decades to come.
Also, if you actually did your research on advanced stats most people view DPRM as a terribly flawed stat that doesn’t accurately represent a players individual defensive impact. But I don’t expect spreadsheet geeks to know anything besides numbers which they themselves don’t even know how to interpret and where the data blind spots are.
Here’s a simple stat for you:
4-2 (Kobe’s playoff series record against Duncan).
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity.
The never ending quest of the Knights of GOATkeeping continues! March forth, gentlemen!
People like you have been spewing the advanced analytics crap since the 2000s and yet here we are in 2024 and Kobe’s legend is as strong as ever.
Kobe's legend to delirious KobeStans who view the world through Kobe colored glasses.
His legend among NBA players? Only 6.8% of them believe he's in the convo for GOAT, compared to almost 50/50 of the rest of them for MJ vs Lebron.
Or his legend among the wide variety of sports writers, who write all those articles I've copied in...which show why they rank Kobe in the 9th through 15th range??
I'll agree Kobe's legend is strong, as I've stated many times
but, with a few exceptions, only people in the Lakers/Kobe bubble regard Kobe as a top 5 player.
And almost everyone that's credible ranks TD ahead of him.
TD isn't considered one of the elite on that list that I'd listed before...instead, TD is #1 on the list of "everyone else"
The "not quite elites"
And Kobe is consistently rated anywhere from 1 to 8 spots below him _________________ LBJ + AD = More rings
Never argue with a fool - listeners can't tell you apart
Wilt's unstoppable fadeaway: www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9MgNfcGJA
NPZ's Magic Johnson mix: www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Qbo0WqvOI
Kobe's legend to delirious KobeStans who view the world through Kobe colored glasses.
His legend among NBA players? Only 6.8% of them believe he's in the convo for GOAT, compared to almost 50/50 of the rest of them for MJ vs Lebron.
Or his legend among the wide variety of sports writers, who write all those articles I've copied in...which show why they rank Kobe in the 9th through 15th range??
I'll agree Kobe's legend is strong, as I've stated many times
but, with a few exceptions, only people in the Lakers/Kobe bubble regard Kobe as a top 5 player.
And almost everyone that's credible ranks TD ahead of him.
TD isn't considered one of the elite on that list that I'd listed before...instead, TD is #1 on the list of "everyone else"
The "not quite elites"
And Kobe is consistently rated anywhere from 1 to 8 spots below him
I love how you keep dismissing that 6.8% of players saying he's the GOAT as a "nothingburger".
Google and Youtube are your friend. A great majority of current and ex NBA players and personnel have Kobe in the same tier as MJ and LeBron. Just because you choose to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and only take it out whenever you see an article or list by some "sports analyst" Brian Windhorse type that YOU choose to give weight to doesn't make that reality. You're the one that's constantly choosing and gate-keeping what's a credible opinion and what is not. As if you were the arbitror of life.
Imagine calling yourself a basketball fan and then being so triggered by a player getting his dues that you make it yout life's mission to "correct" people because you're so bothered by someone ranking a player in a position that YOU feel is incorrect.
Steve Ilardi and Jeremias Engelmann have written a stats-based article comparing Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, and Predictive Real Plus-Minus (RPM) to judge between the two.
They begin by giving the nod to Bryant on the offensive side of the ball:
Kobe logged the higher Offensive RPM for 15 consecutive seasons from 1999-2000 through 2014-15. Over that span, Kobe boasts a huge lead in the metric, with an average of 5.2 to Duncan's 1.8.
And they also show that Duncan is the superior defender:
Even though Kobe has somehow earned more career All-Defensive honors than Duncan (nine to eight, if you're keeping score at home), Bryant's true defensive impact pales in comparison.
To put it bluntly, Kobe's defense is highly overrated. According to DRPM, he hasn't had a large positive impact on defense in a single one of the past 15 seasons. He actually has been among the league's poorest defensive wings for five years running.
But that doesn't mean that Tim and Kobe end in a 1-1 tie.
One of the most compelling features of RPM is the metric's ability to compare the relative impact of each player's offensive and defensive contributions. And that's important, because even though offense is usually what grabs our attention, defensive play is every bit as vital to team success
And then they look at total RPM (which combines both offense and defense) which brings us to the money line:
With the exception of two seasons (2005-06 and 2007-08) at the peak of Kobe's prime, Duncan has had the higher RPM value -- the greater positive impact on the game -- in each of their other seasons.
For most of those seasons, it hasn't even been that close. Since 1999, Duncan has had an average RPM of 6.97 to Kobe's 3.75, a decisive edge to Duncan.
In fact, they go on to conclude that Duncan is, "...quite simply the best player of his generation."
--------------------
On of the compelling reasons Kobe is consistently ranked AFTER TD in the vast majority of "greatest players ever" lists...
The vast majority of those lists (at least from reputable sources - not a few wingnuts), have it as: MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD (8th)
And Kobe is somewhere between 9th (a few of the lists) and as low as 15th.
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity.
This article is a bombshell on Kobe's top 10 argument. It is shocking, alarming, eye-opening, and irrefutable all at the same time.
This seals the deal as far as im concerned. We gotta get this article out to the masses
Steve Ilardi and Jeremias Engelmann have written a stats-based article comparing Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, and Predictive Real Plus-Minus (RPM) to judge between the two.
They begin by giving the nod to Bryant on the offensive side of the ball:
Kobe logged the higher Offensive RPM for 15 consecutive seasons from 1999-2000 through 2014-15. Over that span, Kobe boasts a huge lead in the metric, with an average of 5.2 to Duncan's 1.8.
And they also show that Duncan is the superior defender:
Even though Kobe has somehow earned more career All-Defensive honors than Duncan (nine to eight, if you're keeping score at home), Bryant's true defensive impact pales in comparison.
To put it bluntly, Kobe's defense is highly overrated. According to DRPM, he hasn't had a large positive impact on defense in a single one of the past 15 seasons. He actually has been among the league's poorest defensive wings for five years running.
But that doesn't mean that Tim and Kobe end in a 1-1 tie.
One of the most compelling features of RPM is the metric's ability to compare the relative impact of each player's offensive and defensive contributions. And that's important, because even though offense is usually what grabs our attention, defensive play is every bit as vital to team success
And then they look at total RPM (which combines both offense and defense) which brings us to the money line:
With the exception of two seasons (2005-06 and 2007-08) at the peak of Kobe's prime, Duncan has had the higher RPM value -- the greater positive impact on the game -- in each of their other seasons.
For most of those seasons, it hasn't even been that close. Since 1999, Duncan has had an average RPM of 6.97 to Kobe's 3.75, a decisive edge to Duncan.
In fact, they go on to conclude that Duncan is, "...quite simply the best player of his generation."
--------------------
On of the compelling reasons Kobe is consistently ranked AFTER TD in the vast majority of "greatest players ever" lists...
The vast majority of those lists (at least from reputable sources - not a few wingnuts), have it as: MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD (8th)
And Kobe is somewhere between 9th (a few of the lists) and as low as 15th.
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity.
This article is a bombshell on Kobe's top 10 argument. It is shocking, alarming, eye-opening, and irrefutable all at the same time.
This seals the deal as far as im concerned. We gotta get this article out to the masses
I gotta disagree here though and lets use some individual seasons as an example (excluding 2005/06 and 2007/08 that they mention here). Take 2008/09 - the year of Kobe vs Lebron. This was the Kobe revenge year where he led the Lakers to a 65-17 record and won them their 15th title. The talk was strictly between Kobe vs Lebron as the best player in the game and people rightfully still acknowledged Kobe as he led the Lakers to the ring as the clear alpha of this team. Tim Duncan was nowhere in this picture and you are going to tell me based on these RPM stats, Duncan was the better player this year? No one for a second alive (Ok maybe Spurs fans) during this time thought Duncan was a better player than Kobe at the time.
Ditto 2009/2010 season where even though Bron showed he was clearly the better regular season player, he once again flamed out in the playoffs (in humiliating fashion - Game 5 at home). Again, no one alive for a second believes Duncan was better than Kobe at the time. The talk at the time was again Kobe vs Lebron but also is Pau Gasol now the best power forward in the game following the Boston series. Kobe once again led the Lakers to a ring as the clear alpha and you cant tell me that you can take Kobe and Pau out and replace them with Manu and Tim (should be rough comparables since supposedly Tim is superior to Kobe) and think the Lakers are going to win back to back titles.
2010/11 all the way to 2012/13. Come on now - by this time, Duncan's influence on the Spurs was lessening as he had less to do, at a time Popovich's Spurs offense was actually taking off. 2010/11 was the exact year, Pop had Tim's role on offense and minutes severely curtailed and the Spurs took off. I dont care how great Tim's defense is. You dont take an ATG and tell them to do less and play less and your team does better if you truly are THAT dude. Yes the Spurs were better than the Lakers the majority of these years. But by this point, it was muddied as to if Duncan was even still the best player on the Spurs - Parker seemed more like the engine that was driving the Spurs at this time. Meanwhile, Kobe was still undoubtedly the alpha of the Lakers.
Take these 5 years - no one for a second at the time thought Duncan was better than Kobe in any of these years and you are using these stats to say Duncan was better???? Kobe actually led the Lakers to 2 rings during these years as the unquestioned alpha to Duncan's 0 and Duncan was questioned as to if he was even the best player on his own team during the latter 3 years mentioned whereas with Kobe this is unquestioned. Any stat that shows Duncan is the superior player during just these years shows that it is an obviously flawed metric to determine who is the better player. We all lived through these years and were fans during these years. Im sure none of us even objectively believes Tim Duncan was better than Kobe Bryant during these years that this RPM stat makes you believe.
Steve Ilardi and Jeremias Engelmann have written a stats-based article comparing Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant, and Predictive Real Plus-Minus (RPM) to judge between the two.
They begin by giving the nod to Bryant on the offensive side of the ball:
Kobe logged the higher Offensive RPM for 15 consecutive seasons from 1999-2000 through 2014-15. Over that span, Kobe boasts a huge lead in the metric, with an average of 5.2 to Duncan's 1.8.
And they also show that Duncan is the superior defender:
Even though Kobe has somehow earned more career All-Defensive honors than Duncan (nine to eight, if you're keeping score at home), Bryant's true defensive impact pales in comparison.
To put it bluntly, Kobe's defense is highly overrated. According to DRPM, he hasn't had a large positive impact on defense in a single one of the past 15 seasons. He actually has been among the league's poorest defensive wings for five years running.
But that doesn't mean that Tim and Kobe end in a 1-1 tie.
One of the most compelling features of RPM is the metric's ability to compare the relative impact of each player's offensive and defensive contributions. And that's important, because even though offense is usually what grabs our attention, defensive play is every bit as vital to team success
And then they look at total RPM (which combines both offense and defense) which brings us to the money line:
With the exception of two seasons (2005-06 and 2007-08) at the peak of Kobe's prime, Duncan has had the higher RPM value -- the greater positive impact on the game -- in each of their other seasons.
For most of those seasons, it hasn't even been that close. Since 1999, Duncan has had an average RPM of 6.97 to Kobe's 3.75, a decisive edge to Duncan.
In fact, they go on to conclude that Duncan is, "...quite simply the best player of his generation."
--------------------
On of the compelling reasons Kobe is consistently ranked AFTER TD in the vast majority of "greatest players ever" lists...
The vast majority of those lists (at least from reputable sources - not a few wingnuts), have it as: MJ, LBJ, KAJ, Magic, Russell, Bird, Wilt, TD (8th)
And Kobe is somewhere between 9th (a few of the lists) and as low as 15th.
Oh, oh....more "spread sheet" advanced stats that show conclusively that Kobe wasn't even the most dominant player of his generation - much less all time
Advanced stats are not Kobe's friend...as a matter of fact, they paint a bad picture of him compared to the truly elite players...
as time goes on, those advanced stats are going to gain more and more weight - especially as the deliriously delusional & rabid KobeStans fade into obscurity.
This article is a bombshell on Kobe's top 10 argument. It is shocking, alarming, eye-opening, and irrefutable all at the same time.
This seals the deal as far as im concerned. We gotta get this article out to the masses
Pathetic lol. Imagine thinking that article is a winner catch all besides confirming your own biases. So, erase actually watching his career that’s been over for how long now.. this article solves the mystery! Lol. Willing to bet Kobe gets take top 5 in 99% all time drafts and Duncan falls out of the 10th.
I (bleep) on Duncan at times saying he is less than Kobe and Hakeem but objectively whats Bats says is true. Duncan is a lot better than what I seem to give him credit for. I think you can objectively say Tim was better from 1997/98 to 2004/05 and Kobe was better from 2005/06 to 2012/13 so exactly 8 years each. Now if you want to give Tim the clear advantage from 2013/14 to 2015/16, then by all means but saying Tim was better at the end of their careers after Kobe had such a catastrophic injury does not mean as much to me. Because if you want to give Tim the advantage there, I can say Kobe outplayed Tim in the majority of their head to head matchups as a team and individually and ultimately got the better of him there.
Using the advanced stats argument in itself does not do it for me. Because I can pretty much guarantee who would be the second-best player in the 90s using that argument: David Robinson who would clearly be ahead of Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley or Karl Malone. Any of us that lived through that era knows for a fact that none of us would choose David in the playoffs over any of those 3 and sure enough David lost and was outplayed by each of those 3 guys when all these guys were in their primes.
Pathetic lol. Imagine thinking that article is a winner catch all besides confirming your own biases. So, erase actually watching his career that’s been over for how long now.. this article solves the mystery! Lol. Willing to bet Kobe gets take top 5 in 99% all time drafts and Duncan falls out of the 10th.
Well excel spreadsheets, formulas and advanced statistics are one hell of a confirmation to have though.
Id take that over what you guys are leaning on: the Eye Test, emotion and the opinions of former Lakers.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
