In retrospect, was Darvin Ham a scapegoat?
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Was Darvin Ham a scapegoat?
Yes, the problem is the roster.
27%
 27%  [ 8 ]
No, he was actually a bad coach.
72%
 72%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 29

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CandyCanes
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:09 pm    Post subject: In retrospect, was Darvin Ham a scapegoat?

We’re now the #7 seed, the same as what we finished as both seasons under Darvin. Were we wrong to think of him as the problem?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:27 pm    Post subject:

The best coach we had since Phil was by far Vogel. Lakers won a ring with him , then are the number 1 team in the West with the best defense before injuries plague year 2. Year 2 they even have the best defense without a healthy AD. They go up on the Suns and AD again gets hurt. Year 3 they trade away all the core pieces for Westbrook and old washed up players like Ariza, Melo, Dwight, DAJ, bazemore (almost all of them were out of the league right after).

Of course Lebron and Klutch know they were wrong for supporting and pushing for the Westbrook and old retirement home roster but much easier to blame Vogel than the FO or your own agent. So in comes Ham.

Ham comes in adds some elements to the teams offense that Vogel was lacking. But his game management sucks and by year 2 his players hate him. We had revolts. Ham had to go after that.

Overall JJ seems to be a better prospect as a head coach than Ham was. However the mistake was not buying into Vogels defense. It won you a ring. It was number 1 in the league. All Pelinka needed to do was acknowledge he made a mistake with WB and try to return to a defensive talented roster. Instead he first tried to prove it was coaching and that a new coach like Ham would make WB fit with AD/Bron. We sucked just as bad with less washed up support (Reaves developed into a solid player year 2, Dennis was an asset etc, more youth). So finally we part with WB only to not end up with a balanced roster.

I have to see JJ with a balanced roster. Overall though while I think Pelinka (and Klutch to a degree) deserve the most blame, if we’re talking coaches since Phil, Vogel with Kidd at his side (Handy too) was our best staff since Phil/Tex.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:30 pm    Post subject:

Just look at the Warriors and Heat struggling after winning a title. Kerr was talking about it. Their FOs give them some time to go through a bad season or a rough patch. In LA the very second the were a .500 team in 2021-22 the pitch forks were out for the coach.

It’s true we’ve also not had some good coaches in the last 20 years but even when we have someone competent and good who can win - we treat them like hot garbage.
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Japago
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:43 pm    Post subject:

The biggest problem has always been the roster, but that doesn't mean Ham was a good coach.

I guess technically he was a scapegoat because the only big move the Lakers made this off-season after 2 disappointing exits to the same team, and a disappointing regular season was firing him.

On some level, you can look at the sequence of events and conclude the Lakers thought a coaching change alone would fix the team.
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TMG
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:49 pm    Post subject:

These past 2 seasons have been extremely tiring. I dont give a (bleep) just move on from this duo and this squad.


Give me something to root for. Dont care about ham dont care about JJ the squad etc etc etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 3:52 pm    Post subject:

A successful basketball team is always going to be the result of a productive collaboration between players, ownership, coaches, and front offices. Our roster has been a mess since the Westbrook trade, our front office is a joke, our ownership is clueless and our last two coaches were first timers. They shuffle things around every couple years without addressing the root issue and wonder why it never improves.

The team at large is beholden to LeBron, a declining 40 year old who turns on coaches pretty quickly and there’s nobody in our organization with the gravitas to tell him no. He’ll eventually tire of JJ if he doesn’t retire first. Ham wasn’t perfect and did an admirable job with a busted roster. He got fired as Vogel did for having the team perform below expectation as any coach would with the continued blunders of Pelinka ruining the roster since the title year. When the roster stinks and things aren’t improving the players are going to inevitably sour on the coach (particularly when the leader routinely makes it clear he has tuned them out.)

So yeah Ham had to go because he “lost the locker room” and the org will never ask the question why the coach, no matter who it is, loses the locker room every 2-3 years. LeBron isn’t LeBron anymore and Davis isn’t Davis. We waited too long to sell before the expiration date and now we will pay the consequences. They can keep JJ or recycle again but the rot is at the top and until that gets addressed I’m not sure it really matters who coaches the team.
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Denny_Russo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 4:13 pm    Post subject:

^Good point. Ham was always symptom of a bigger problem, but not the actual problem itself. Same with Westbrook. People just needed someone other than the FO and Bron to blame unfortunately. The rot always starts at the top.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 4:22 pm    Post subject:

He's not a very good coach IMO, but poor coaching hasn't been all of the Lakers ails. It's a both things can be true situation
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 4:26 pm    Post subject:

TDRock wrote:
He's not a very good coach IMO, but poor coaching hasn't been all of the Lakers ails. It's a both things can be true situation


Ham seems like he is probably a top tier assistant and a mediocre head coach. But he wasn’t like Byron Scott or anything either.
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lakersfever714
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 5:26 pm    Post subject:

He's an average coach like Kerr and Brown. Give them a good roster and they'll win you championships. Give them a crap roster and they'll compete for the play-in.

Lakers have a bad roster and an average coach. It was fine to look for an upgrade from an average coach. It was not fine to not upgrade the GM when the roster has been hot garbage.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:05 pm    Post subject:

He was a bad coach who would have been on his way to becoming one of the greatest coaches in history... if only Lebron was 25 yrs old.

Lebron is 40 and takes up over $50 million and isn't great on demand anymore. Not even on a night of Coop retirement, getting back from LA fires, etc. 18 pts, 11 shots. Nothing is going to change until Lebron era is over.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:52 pm    Post subject:

The Lakers have more talent than their record would suggest. This is a ~50-win roster IMHO.

But so often, both this season and last, they have come out with what has seemed like a casual, too-cool-for-school attitude versus lesser teams. They get up to play teams that are solid, good or great, but against teams like the Spurs, Mavs without Luka/Kyrie, Pistons, Heat and Timberwolves, they seem to sleepwalk.

I really think attitude is an even bigger problem than the roster. Roster-wise, I really think we just need a couple more complementary players to be either a contender or near-contender. But if these players think all they need to do is make the play-in tournament and they can then "turn it on" in April, they will be going home by the beginning of May, even if Pelinka beings them another viable piece.

Last season under Ham, they seemed to be content with getting the last play-in spot, no matter what they said publicly. While Ham deserved to be fired, it looks like the attitude problem is coming from the players, or maybe one player, rather than the head coach or even the front office.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 7:13 pm    Post subject:

Pelinka has the luxury of blaming anything bad on the coaching staff, even his own crappy moves. Jeanie doesn’t seem to want to trust someone outside the organization who could show how incompetent the organization is. JJ will be gone before Pelinka.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:35 pm    Post subject:

He lost the team. It had to happen.

He was at best an average coach right now. He could grow into an above average coach.

JJ is "better" but not a world beater at this point. My gut was saying he has a higher ceiling until he went back to a switch everything defense.....
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dont_be_a_wuss
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:02 pm    Post subject:

Ham got us to the WCF, let’s see what JJ can do. We have had a much easier schedule this year. Lots of injuries to opponents.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 9:09 pm    Post subject:

the stars set the tone- when they quit on a coach everyone quits on the coach.

when the stars demand practices are intense, take accountability and are extensions of the coach on the court teams tend to do well.

Curry has never quit on Kerr even when times are bad. plus they got 4 together.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2025 10:43 pm    Post subject:

The problem has always been the FO/Ownership. It will continue to be that long after Ham, Reddick, DLO, Klutch, etc are gone.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:48 am    Post subject:

Lakeshow23_ wrote:
The problem has always been the FO/Ownership. It will continue to be that long after Ham, Reddick, DLO, Klutch, etc are gone.


In fact, I think the problem might just be the ownership… Kupchak was considered a mastermind when Jerry Buss was owner, then proceeded to do things like sign MozDeng to four year deals as soon as he was gone due to that stupid WCF ultimatum.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:18 am    Post subject:

Ham is not a good coach (and a bad fit). His rotations were not good, he did not put his players in a position to succeed (screwing with the psyche of the lesser players), and his game management was poor (especially game adjustments). JJ is far from a world beater but I think he has potential. He has zero experience and I was not expecting much. If we can endure the growing pains, he could grow into a good coach. Unfortunately, Phil himself could not make this a good team.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 5:29 am    Post subject:

Rob hired Ham. Whether it was a coach or roster issue, Rob was responsible for it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 7:08 am    Post subject:

So so coach at best, just like the roster.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 9:14 am    Post subject:

Small ball Ham was not scapegoated; I don't care how many consecutive mid season tourneys he wins. Vogel on the other hand...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:00 am    Post subject:

The roster is poorly constructed AND Ham was a terrible coach.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 10:06 am    Post subject:

The timeouts this (bleep) Guy was too lazy to call are enough to have him banned from our arena.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Comparing the Lakers 7th seed after the 3 game slump that dropped them from 4th when last year at this time Darvin had the Lakers at 12th is disingenuous.

This team without Darvin has spent most of the time this year as a playoff seed in the standings, with Darvin last year the team spent most of the time below the play-in.

The roster is a problem AND Darvin was a bad coach therefore he was NOT a scapegoat. The team is performing…still not up to Lakers standards but…much better without him as they are fighting for the 4th seed instead of fighting for the play-in. It’s not that ok, not satisfied, the roster still needs fixing, but coaching needed fixing too and at least it has a chance to looked fixed with the problem removed.
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