Luka's APRIL 32 ppg 7 apg + shooting the 3 ball extremely well. Only off game vs GST. Rest were all dominant scoring performances. We've not had a guard this good at scoring the ball from the perimeter since Bean.
So we all good with this lopsided trade now? Any reservations left?
Who thought we didn't win the trade?
This is LG. There are MANY idiots here.
Well, I guess I'm an idiot.
The jist of what I agree with is those who think the team pre-trade had a better shot at a title this year than the team post-trade. Longterm? It's not even a debate really. Luka's only 26. He'll have a much longer prime on paper. Unless you buy in that he'll play himself out of shape and out of the prime early, which I personally don't. Some also just don't like him, which is weird, because he's a really likable guy. So for me at least the reservations are all about #18. I thought the team was more balance pre-trade, especially if Rob were also willing to move Knecht and some #2s. Historically we've always won with a star big and a star guard. But I do understand the league is changing and we may be able to win with a core of Luka/Lebron/Reaves. Then there's also his contract situation, he's not going to extend for 4 years here like he would have with Dallas. Likely he's going to do a 2 yr extension with an opt out because he lost a lot of money in this trade. So I'd say the 2 reservations I agree with - contract status and the team's title odds with Lebron this season.
The main argument that I tend to agree with - if you were willing to use a FRP OR Knecht/#2s to improve the team that was there pre-trade, you probably had a better more balanced roster ready to win a title this year than the one we have today that has a gaping hole in the middle that is being covered by Hayes (borderline starter) and Rui (small ball not really a big). I don't think those fans are idiots, personally. And unlike some who only come out of hiding when he had an off game, I've been consistent about this. I'm saying this now when he's just come off 5 straight games where he's shooting the ball incredibly well vs OKC, Dallas, Pelicans and HOU in the last 5.
And don't get me wrong, despite all that, I totally understand why people love this move. Just from an entertainment perspective. Luka is way more enjoyable to watch on offense than the team we had pre-trade. When he goes off, reminds us all of #24/8. I totally respect and get the love fest. Plus, he's just a very likeable character/player. I'm rooting for him to prove himself as one of the all time greats at his position. Also, it seems small ball is working, We're looking like using doubles and quick helps from smalls we can defend vs bigger teams. I personally don't like these tactics and prefer teams that don't have to start games already knowing they will double/help. Much prefer if we had a legit big we could play 30 min a game who we could rely on so that we didn't have to go into games knowing we're going to collapse in the paint and double. Balanced lineups don't need to do those things on a consistent basis. We're going into games knowing we're going to double a good mid-post player. We did it vs Joker and AD. Also, we don't have a POA defender in our core by losing Max. 2 glaring weaknesses we didn't have pre-trade (not even taking into account that Rob could have added even more talent to that group with moving Knecht/#2). The argument I agree with is that you improved in one area big time, but you also lost a lot in certain areas. You're now married to playing a style, where you're giving up size, open space at the perimeter to collapse in the paint. Without a lockdown POA defender and without a big in the middle, we're going to rely on what I call "gimmick" defenses.
Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 4252 Location: Space City
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 6:26 am Post subject:
That well-balanced team would have been less than a crap shoot to win the chip. You would have still been over reliant on the 40 year old James and the oft injured AD. Luka lifts us beyond this chance and we are an off season away from setting ourselves up for chips for the next 7 years.
This argument reminds me of Moncrief over Magic. Sid would have been a perfect compliment to Norm Nixon who would have still wanted lead guard roles, upped there perimeter defense with Kareem as the backline help and Jamaal Wilkes and Kareem would have kept them as leading principle scoring roles. We went with all time great Magic. We are now going with Luka
That well-balanced team would have been less than a crap shoot to win the chip. You would have still been over reliant on the 40 year old James and the oft injured AD. Luka lifts us beyond this chance and we are an off season away from setting ourselves up for chips for the next 7 years.
This argument reminds me of Moncrief over Magic. Sid would have been a perfect compliment to Norm Nixon who would have still wanted lead guard roles, upped there perimeter defense with Kareem as the backline help and Jamaal Wilkes and Kareem would have kept them as leading principle scoring roles. We went with all time great Magic. We are now going with Luka
The bolded is the thing. Had we not made the trade and AD gotten the 18 game injury on February 8, we'd be in the Play In again.
Moreover - acknowledging the loss of AD & Max defensively - we are just a much more dangerous team on both ends of the court.
Since the trade, our defensive lapses have been largely due to three things: live ball turnovers, poor defensive rebounding & poor closeouts at the 3-pt line.
Guess what? Those were our issues BEFORE the Luka trade, too, and having AD & Max back would fix none of them. We haven't been crushed by opposing bigs or penetrating guards - it's late rotations and allowing the Brandin Podziemskis and Cam Whitmores to kill us from 3.
Meanwhile, our offense is MUCH MORE versatile, with scoring threats everywhere (except Vando) and 3 centers of gravity stressing defenders. The defense (except as noted), has been fairly solid, despite playing the most March games of any team in history.
I think we have a better shot THIS YEAR than we had before the trade. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
More skilled than Kobe Bryant?Everybody has opinions.Luka is definitely box office but Kobe could do everything Luka does, but he was way more athletic and better defensively by MILES Again, I understand that’s your opinion.
He’s skilled for sure, now it’s time to mature mentally. Know that the refs in the playoffs are looking for a reason to tech you up, Luka… know that every argument aimed at the refs is a step towards exiting the game. We need that fire, but be vocal about it strategically after a game with the media. Professional sports are played in several facets. Win on all fronts. _________________ DEAR BASKETBALL
More skilled than Kobe Bryant?Everybody has opinions.Luka is definitely box office but Kobe could do everything Luka does, but he was way more athletic and better defensively by MILES Again, I understand that’s your opinion.
Let's not get Lakers fans treating Luka as a Kobe legacy competitor the way they do Lebron. Kobe was definitely a better defender, and way more athletic. Doncic is miles ahead when it comes to playmaking though, and a far better three point shooter and rebounder, as well. Of course with recency bias, and a lot of younger fans either not knowing Kobe, or only catching the tail end of his career, it would never be a fair discussion.
We're looking like using doubles and quick helps from smalls we can defend vs bigger teams. I personally don't like these tactics and prefer teams that don't have to start games already knowing they will double/help. Much prefer if we had a legit big we could play 30 min a game who we could rely on so that we didn't have to go into games knowing we're going to collapse in the paint and double. Balanced lineups don't need to do those things on a consistent basis. We're going into games knowing we're going to double a good mid-post player. We did it vs Joker and AD. Also, we don't have a POA defender in our core by losing Max.
The trapping doubling is being utilized to cover up for Luka and AR... preventing them from being on an island and being targeted. And swarming the opposing big because we dont have a big of our own. We have no choice but to do this every game as you stated.
The consequence is we get killed from 3. Assuming we get to the Finals, the Celtics are going to have a field day.
Right now it appears to be working, and even when it doesnt, we have Luka's sheer offensive prowess to cover up for the defensive holes, and of course he gets the others wide open looks.
I will say this... if we win the chip with this roster, and this defensive strategy, JJ will have my vote for the greatest coach of all time lol
I will say this... if we win the chip with this roster, and this defensive strategy, JJ will have my vote for the greatest coach of all time lol
If we win this year, which I always believed we have far too many holes in our roster, imagine how good we'll be next year after we plug some of those holes
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 31125 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 8:13 pm Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
The jist of what I agree with is those who think the team pre-trade had a better shot at a title this year than the team post-trade.
The main argument that I tend to agree with - if you were willing to use a FRP OR Knecht/#2s to improve the team that was there pre-trade, you probably had a better more balanced roster ready to win a title this year than the one we have today that has a gaping hole in the middle that is being covered by Hayes (borderline starter) and Rui (small ball not really a big). I don't think those fans are idiots, personally.
I personally don't like these tactics and prefer teams that don't have to start games already knowing they will double/help. Much prefer if we had a legit big we could play 30 min a game who we could rely on so that we didn't have to go into games knowing we're going to collapse in the paint and double. Balanced lineups don't need to do those things on a consistent basis. We're going into games knowing we're going to double a good mid-post player. We did it vs Joker and AD.
The argument I agree with is that you improved in one area big time, but you also lost a lot in certain areas. You're now married to playing a style, where you're giving up size, open space at the perimeter to collapse in the paint. Without a lockdown POA defender and without a big in the middle, we're going to rely on what I call "gimmick" defenses.
I generally agree with you.
I don't like going small or sacrificing defense for offense.
But AD was Mr. Glass. He can't stay healthy. He would've missed extended time with us (just like he did with Dallas). He was injured when we traded him.
AD's injuries put even more load on Bron.
So we would've been a play-in team ... again. And I think Bron would be more worn down than he is right now.
Also, there is the whole, Jokic owning AD history. I do think the DLO => DFS trade fixed our most glaring matchup issue against DEN. But it is nice to have a roster change big enough AD => Luka. Where history doesn't seem to apply. _________________ When the world grows. Grow with it.
We were never winning a ring again with AD/Lebron. Maybe that team gave us a better chance it’s hard to tell and we will never know. I think our D will be exposed in the playoffs without AD and this max effort scheme JJ is having them run. But it’s not about this year, it never was. May not even be about next year. But after that? If we do every thing right and build a team around Luka while managing the cap the way I think Pelinka is capable of? Sky is the limit.
I have no expectations I just hope to see the Don ball out and give us Laker playoff joy back.
So let me amend that to "the most skilled in the 3-point Era (1979-80 to today) because cross era comparisons are unfair. FOR HIS DAY, Wilt had a great outside shot and a great handle for a big - both would be subpar today - but give him today's training techniques, etc.
_________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
We were never winning a ring again with AD/Lebron. Maybe that team gave us a better chance it’s hard to tell and we will never know.
If we would've gotten a legitimate center for AD... we might've won, or at least went to the finals imo
Legitimate centers are both expensive and unwilling to play off the bench which is what would happen because come crunch time, AD would likely play the 5 in a lot of situations.
Good centers don't sign on to teams to play second fiddle to people
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 24687 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2025 12:09 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Megaton wrote:
TMG wrote:
governator wrote:
So we all good with this lopsided trade now? Any reservations left?
Who thought we didn't win the trade?
This is LG. There are MANY idiots here.
Well, I guess I'm an idiot.
The jist of what I agree with is those who think the team pre-trade had a better shot at a title this year than the team post-trade. Longterm? It's not even a debate really. Luka's only 26. He'll have a much longer prime on paper. Unless you buy in that he'll play himself out of shape and out of the prime early, which I personally don't. Some also just don't like him, which is weird, because he's a really likable guy. So for me at least the reservations are all about #18. I thought the team was more balance pre-trade, especially if Rob were also willing to move Knecht and some #2s. Historically we've always won with a star big and a star guard. But I do understand the league is changing and we may be able to win with a core of Luka/Lebron/Reaves. Then there's also his contract situation, he's not going to extend for 4 years here like he would have with Dallas. Likely he's going to do a 2 yr extension with an opt out because he lost a lot of money in this trade. So I'd say the 2 reservations I agree with - contract status and the team's title odds with Lebron this season.
The main argument that I tend to agree with - if you were willing to use a FRP OR Knecht/#2s to improve the team that was there pre-trade, you probably had a better more balanced roster ready to win a title this year than the one we have today that has a gaping hole in the middle that is being covered by Hayes (borderline starter) and Rui (small ball not really a big). I don't think those fans are idiots, personally. And unlike some who only come out of hiding when he had an off game, I've been consistent about this. I'm saying this now when he's just come off 5 straight games where he's shooting the ball incredibly well vs OKC, Dallas, Pelicans and HOU in the last 5.
And don't get me wrong, despite all that, I totally understand why people love this move. Just from an entertainment perspective. Luka is way more enjoyable to watch on offense than the team we had pre-trade. When he goes off, reminds us all of #24/8. I totally respect and get the love fest. Plus, he's just a very likeable character/player. I'm rooting for him to prove himself as one of the all time greats at his position. Also, it seems small ball is working, We're looking like using doubles and quick helps from smalls we can defend vs bigger teams. I personally don't like these tactics and prefer teams that don't have to start games already knowing they will double/help. Much prefer if we had a legit big we could play 30 min a game who we could rely on so that we didn't have to go into games knowing we're going to collapse in the paint and double. Balanced lineups don't need to do those things on a consistent basis. We're going into games knowing we're going to double a good mid-post player. We did it vs Joker and AD. Also, we don't have a POA defender in our core by losing Max. 2 glaring weaknesses we didn't have pre-trade (not even taking into account that Rob could have added even more talent to that group with moving Knecht/#2). The argument I agree with is that you improved in one area big time, but you also lost a lot in certain areas. You're now married to playing a style, where you're giving up size, open space at the perimeter to collapse in the paint. Without a lockdown POA defender and without a big in the middle, we're going to rely on what I call "gimmick" defenses.
It's completely reasonable to feel AD/Bron had a chance, or maybe even better chance. For me, the idiots are the ones trying to dismiss Luka to make that point. You can acknowledge a generational talent, and at the same time feel AD and Max made the Lakers better or more balance. Personally, I've had enough of the AD/Bron teams, and that Dallas game is reminder of what it's like to have AD. What it's like to want him to carpe diem, only to see him okay with being Robin. You see that Robin in him in Dallas even when there is no Batman. Meanwhile Luka drops 45 in your home, and reminds you why they're chanting fire Nico. _________________ "The game is MORE than just one player. Without Luka, DFS would have been more than enough to replace him based on what we've seen," LakersFever714, the greatest casual of all time.
If both Irving and AD are healthy, Dallas would be one of the top teams now. However, Nico would not be able to redeem himself after Irving had that devastating injury.
Dude absolutely had no trouble with Dort and definitely has shown more speed/athleticism in recent games than he did in the beginning. If he can do that to Dort, there is no one in the league he cant fry in the playoffs.
So we all good with this lopsided trade now? Any reservations left?
My mild reservation that I expressed here at LG about the Luka trade for AD+Christie was nuanced, not a black or white condemnation.
I acknowledged that we need a superstar for the future to win rings, and that AD wasn't it since he is best at being a #2. My issue was that knowing our team defense was the third most important element for our 2020 championship with Lebron and AD in part because we were athletically bigger than all four of our playoff opponents, it made sense to try and replicate that for the first time since then this one, last season by trading for a better, large defensive center alongside AD. That way the Joker and other bigger teams can't easily post up (like what D. Howard gave us in 2020) while AD roamed as a free safety to help where ever.
Also, the fact that Christie was our best perimeter defender that compared favorably to the Danny Green / Caruso / KCP / Playoff Rondo back court we had then seemed to make this approach to winning it all even more obvious to pursue. In the end, nothing matters to me more as a Laker fan than more rings, and solidifying our defense in the way described above was to me a proven way to go about it.
If we didn't win even while trading for a defensive backup center (yes, I would've given up AR to pursue that goal) while keeping AD and Christie, then I would have hoped we could then trade for Luka this summer and build around him going forward. That's not what happened, so here we are as the playoffs are set to begin. My defensive concerns going in are still there somewhat, but I admit it's not as bad as I thought for a few reasons.
Firstly, Luka is a far better defender than I expected. I thought him and Austin on the floor together would be similar to the frustrating sequences we endured watching AR and DLo on the floor together trying to stop talented offenses in the playoffs. Luka isn't so much faster or more athletically gifted than I expected, but his defensive BBiQ is astonishing.
Doncic knows when and how to position himself in ways that messes up not just what his opponent is trying to do one on one, but he intelligently disrupts defensive sets the entire opposing team tries to run. Of course it doesn't work every time, but the number of plays he disrupts with a timely steal or an open lane he clogs or weakside block he gets from behind is amazing since he doesn't look like he should be as effective as he is, physically speaking.
The other improvement I did not expect, coming late this season, is that Austin is a bit more effective on defense. He has been a sore spot for me for years on that end of the court, but maybe it is tips from Luka and the coaching staff that has had him make some strides (though talented offensive teams will still hunt him down).
Lastly I am also happy to see that Reddick and his awesome coaching staff (Nate and Scottie) is doing a fantastic job at preparing our entire team in defending opponents. They've brought out defensive schemes and team effort levels that I didn't see coming. If we don't win it all this year, I doubt many of us will blame them.
Overall, I still would've liked to have seen "Plan A" described above played out by enhancing our original squad, but I am a little more optimistic about what we have (though still lamenting we don't have a true, burly defensive center of size for certain match ups). Either way, I've always appreciated that Luka in purple 'n gold is our future, and hope he stays healthy for his career so we can see the maximum productivity that this incredible player is capable of delivering.
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