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Omar Little
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 Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson...
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | ^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson... |
And again - I keep reiterating this - I've seen Ali's toughness get knocked down by lesser fighters than Prime Tyson. So his toughness wouldn't have anything to do with him not getting out of the way of a speedy heavyweight with more power than he had.
And Holmes wouldn't last 5 rounds with Mike. Holmes was way too slow and Tyson was way too fast and strong. Plus, Holmes would have been afraid just like everyone else was leading up to Buster. That's another thing people seem to forget about Prime Mike - EVERY boxer he fought feared him. The psychological advantage he had over them was ridiculous.
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... And Ali never faced a fighter as fast and as powerful and as vicuous as Mike. Now what?
C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali?
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TACH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali? |
No, I was talking about during his prime.... it might be blah blah, but it's the truth...
Would Mike be able to catch Ali, yes. Would Tyson hit Ali, yes. Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. Would Tyson have that 'psychological advantage' as you posted earlier over Ali that he was so accustom to during his prime, NO. Would Ali's devastating jab keep Tyson at bay, factoring Ali's speed and movement, yes. Would Tyson tire in the later round (7th and on), yes. And would Ali exploit that, absolutely! Game over, Tyson goes down to Ali, no question. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | ^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson... |
And again - I keep reiterating this - I've seen Ali's toughness get knocked down by lesser fighters than Prime Tyson. So his toughness wouldn't have anything to do with him not getting out of the way of a speedy heavyweight with more power than he had.
And Holmes wouldn't last 5 rounds with Mike. Holmes was way too slow and Tyson was way too fast and strong. Plus, Holmes would have been afraid just like everyone else was leading up to Buster. That's another thing people seem to forget about Prime Mike - EVERY boxer he fought feared him. The psychological advantage he had over them was ridiculous. |
And I've seen Tyson get knocked down by a journeyman. He didn't exactly have a great chin either. Good, but not great. And for the record, when a guy Ali fought was still a contender 30 years later (mike's era) that says a lot about the era. Once guys figured out mike's weakness, they were able to beat him.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali? |
No, I was talking about during his prime.... it might be blah blah, but it's the truth...
Would Mike be able to catch Ali, yes. Would Tyson hit Ali, yes. Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. Would Tyson have that 'psychological advantage' as you posted earlier over Ali that he was so accustom to during his prime, NO. Would Ali's devastating jab keep Tyson at bay, factoring Ali's speed and movement, yes. Would Tyson tire in the later round (7th and on), yes. And would Ali exploit that, absolutely! Game over, Tyson goes down to Ali, no question. |
Right here is where you don't use logic, bro:
| Quote: | | Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. |
No. because we've ALL seen from Prime Mike, that when Mike pounced on a fighter, it was pretty much over. You're asking Ali to do something he's never done before to a fighter he's never faced before. You're going "idol" on this and that's pretty much it. You're not truly looking at this from both standpoints of those fighters in their prime.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | ^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson... |
And again - I keep reiterating this - I've seen Ali's toughness get knocked down by lesser fighters than Prime Tyson. So his toughness wouldn't have anything to do with him not getting out of the way of a speedy heavyweight with more power than he had.
And Holmes wouldn't last 5 rounds with Mike. Holmes was way too slow and Tyson was way too fast and strong. Plus, Holmes would have been afraid just like everyone else was leading up to Buster. That's another thing people seem to forget about Prime Mike - EVERY boxer he fought feared him. The psychological advantage he had over them was ridiculous. |
And I've seen Tyson get knocked down by a journeyman. He didn't exactly have a great chin either. Good, but not great. And for the record, when a guy Ali fought was still a contender 30 years later (mike's era) that says a lot about the era. Once guys figured out mike's weakness, they were able to beat him. |
And what did that fighter look like?: 6'4, 240lbs, with 83 inch reach - while Mike was pudgy and he undertrained for the fight. While Ali got knocked down by a 6'2, 188lbs Cooper, 6'2, 191lbs Banks, and a pudgy 6'5, 225lbs Wepner.
That tells me that Mike could have easily knocked Ali out of those scrubs are knocking Ali down.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | ^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson... |
And again - I keep reiterating this - I've seen Ali's toughness get knocked down by lesser fighters than Prime Tyson. So his toughness wouldn't have anything to do with him not getting out of the way of a speedy heavyweight with more power than he had.
And Holmes wouldn't last 5 rounds with Mike. Holmes was way too slow and Tyson was way too fast and strong. Plus, Holmes would have been afraid just like everyone else was leading up to Buster. That's another thing people seem to forget about Prime Mike - EVERY boxer he fought feared him. The psychological advantage he had over them was ridiculous. |
And I've seen Tyson get knocked down by a journeyman. He didn't exactly have a great chin either. Good, but not great. And for the record, when a guy Ali fought was still a contender 30 years later (mike's era) that says a lot about the era. Once guys figured out mike's weakness, they were able to beat him. |
And what did that fighter look like?: 6'4, 240lbs, with 83 inch reach - while Mike was pudgy and he undertrained for the fight. While Ali got knocked down by a 6'2, 188lbs Cooper, 6'2, 191lbs Banks, and a pudgy 6'5, 225lbs Wepner.
That tells me that Mike could have easily knocked Ali out of those scrubs are knocking Ali down. |
Then why couldn't Foreman knock Ali out? It wasn't for lack of hitting him.
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TACH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali? |
No, I was talking about during his prime.... it might be blah blah, but it's the truth...
Would Mike be able to catch Ali, yes. Would Tyson hit Ali, yes. Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. Would Tyson have that 'psychological advantage' as you posted earlier over Ali that he was so accustom to during his prime, NO. Would Ali's devastating jab keep Tyson at bay, factoring Ali's speed and movement, yes. Would Tyson tire in the later round (7th and on), yes. And would Ali exploit that, absolutely! Game over, Tyson goes down to Ali, no question. |
Right here is where you don't use logic, bro:
| Quote: | | Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. |
No. because we've ALL seen from Prime Mike, that when Mike pounced on a fighter, it was pretty much over. You're asking Ali to do something he's never done before to a fighter he's never faced before. You're going "idol" on this and that's pretty much it. You're not truly looking at this from both standpoints of those fighters in their prime. |
If Tillis, Green, Smith, and Tucker can take him the distance, what makes you think Ali can't... come on bro, add all those figthers together and they still aren't half the boxer Ali was. If Ferguson, Thomas, Biggs, and Bruno got past the 5th round against Mike, your telling me Ali couldn't survive Tyson's earlier onslaught, but those bums did? You're joking right? Hell, an aged over the hill Larry Holmes made it to the 4th round with Mike  And all those fights took place in his prime....
Ali survived Liston's onslaught, he survived Foreman's onslaught (heavier hard punch then Mike), hell he survived Norton's (another heavy hitter) going 15 rounds with him, after getting his jaw broken in the first round, yet you are going to tell me Ali couldn't survive Tyson, please. And Tyson's the one that never faced a fighter/boxer like Ali, with the speed, with the foot work, with the power, with the heart, and the smarts that he possed. Tyson fought NOBODYS and aged former champions in his prime! There are no Foreman's or Fraizer's on Tyson's 'Prime' resume. Tyson was never even tested because he fought bums. Ali would pick him apart point blank!
I think you are the one having a problem with 'idolizing' Mike. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| 24 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | ^^You need to watch the fight in zaire for everything you need to know about Ali's toughness. Foreman (one of the few guys who hit harder than Tyson) tagged him with everything in his arsenal.
BTW, IMO, a prime Larry Holmes takes Tyson... |
And again - I keep reiterating this - I've seen Ali's toughness get knocked down by lesser fighters than Prime Tyson. So his toughness wouldn't have anything to do with him not getting out of the way of a speedy heavyweight with more power than he had.
And Holmes wouldn't last 5 rounds with Mike. Holmes was way too slow and Tyson was way too fast and strong. Plus, Holmes would have been afraid just like everyone else was leading up to Buster. That's another thing people seem to forget about Prime Mike - EVERY boxer he fought feared him. The psychological advantage he had over them was ridiculous. |
And I've seen Tyson get knocked down by a journeyman. He didn't exactly have a great chin either. Good, but not great. And for the record, when a guy Ali fought was still a contender 30 years later (mike's era) that says a lot about the era. Once guys figured out mike's weakness, they were able to beat him. |
And what did that fighter look like?: 6'4, 240lbs, with 83 inch reach - while Mike was pudgy and he undertrained for the fight. While Ali got knocked down by a 6'2, 188lbs Cooper, 6'2, 191lbs Banks, and a pudgy 6'5, 225lbs Wepner.
That tells me that Mike could have easily knocked Ali out of those scrubs are knocking Ali down. |
Then why couldn't Foreman knock Ali out? It wasn't for lack of hitting him. |
Because Foreman was never a finisher. Mike was. Foreman even said himself that he lacked the heart and that's why he didn't get back up after Ali banged on him.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali? |
No, I was talking about during his prime.... it might be blah blah, but it's the truth...
Would Mike be able to catch Ali, yes. Would Tyson hit Ali, yes. Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. Would Tyson have that 'psychological advantage' as you posted earlier over Ali that he was so accustom to during his prime, NO. Would Ali's devastating jab keep Tyson at bay, factoring Ali's speed and movement, yes. Would Tyson tire in the later round (7th and on), yes. And would Ali exploit that, absolutely! Game over, Tyson goes down to Ali, no question. |
Right here is where you don't use logic, bro:
| Quote: | | Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. |
No. because we've ALL seen from Prime Mike, that when Mike pounced on a fighter, it was pretty much over. You're asking Ali to do something he's never done before to a fighter he's never faced before. You're going "idol" on this and that's pretty much it. You're not truly looking at this from both standpoints of those fighters in their prime. |
If Tillis, Green, Smith, and Tucker can take him the distance, what makes you think Ali can't... come on bro, add all those figthers together and they still aren't half the boxer Ali was. If Ferguson, Thomas, Biggs, and Bruno got past the 5th round against Mike, your telling me Ali couldn't survive Tyson's earlier onslaught, but those bums did? You're joking right? Hell, an aged over the hill Larry Holmes made it to the 4th round with Mike And all those fights took place in his prime....
Ali survived Liston's onslaught, he survived Foreman's onslaught (heavier hard punch then Mike), hell he survived Norton's (another heavy hitter) going 15 rounds with him, after getting his jaw broken in the first round, yet you are going to tell me Ali couldn't survive Tyson, please. And Tyson's the one that never faced a fighter/boxer like Ali, with the speed, with the foot work, with the power, with the heart, and the smarts that he possed. Tyson fought NOBODYS and aged former champions in his prime! There are no Foreman's or Fraizer's on Tyson's 'Prime' resume. Tyson was never even tested because he fought bums. Ali would pick him apart point blank!
I think you are the one having a problem with 'idolizing' Mike. |
Ali CAN go the distance with Mike. And he'd have to do it the same exact ways those others did - Hold, Clinch, Run, Grab. Woul Ali do that? Probably. Because Ali would be smart enough to know that he couldn't withstand Mike's ferociousness and his aggressiveness.
And again, you bring up the Liston fight. Old Liston. Much slower Liston. And certainly much slower than Tyson. Bad example. And no, Foreman didn't punch harder than Mike because Foreman was slow and powerful while Mike was fast and powerful, simple physics come into play at that point. Same as Norton - Not fast as Mike. Have you even seen Mike Tyson fight BEFORE 2002, bro? .
But you do seem rather emotional over Ali, bro. And that's not a shot I'm taking at you but rather an observation. The same way as some MJ fans don't want to see anyone better than him, and the same with Ruth fans...They feel their guy was unbeatable and there's no one that can tell them otherwise. It is what it is.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | ^^And you are forgetting Tyson faced average heavyweights (some not even average), Tyson never faced a boxer like Ali... a heavyweight that was smart, fast, with foot work barely ever seen in the heavyweight ranks, was tough ass nails, had the heart of a lion, and was fearless. Tyson didn't face the quality opponents Ali has fought... Ali fought just about ever type of fighter imaginable, and handled them. Tyson was never in a war during his prime. Tyson never had to go 15 rounds. Tyson wouldn't intimidate Ali, like the other average heavyweights during his prime. Tyson didn't have that experience when he was in his prime, his psychological advantage would be gone against Ali.... Tyson's a mental midget, Ali would frustrate and confuse him to no end, then pick him a part. |
Blah, blah, blah... C'mon, dawg....You're talking about Tyson's entire career again when were ONLY talking Prime Mike vs Prime Ali. Stay focused on the prime. Now - One question; real quick; we can end this entire debate:
Yes or No - Would Tyson be able to hit/catch Ali? |
No, I was talking about during his prime.... it might be blah blah, but it's the truth...
Would Mike be able to catch Ali, yes. Would Tyson hit Ali, yes. Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. Would Tyson have that 'psychological advantage' as you posted earlier over Ali that he was so accustom to during his prime, NO. Would Ali's devastating jab keep Tyson at bay, factoring Ali's speed and movement, yes. Would Tyson tire in the later round (7th and on), yes. And would Ali exploit that, absolutely! Game over, Tyson goes down to Ali, no question. |
Right here is where you don't use logic, bro:
| Quote: | | Would Ali be able to withstand Tyson early onslaught, yes. |
No. because we've ALL seen from Prime Mike, that when Mike pounced on a fighter, it was pretty much over. You're asking Ali to do something he's never done before to a fighter he's never faced before. You're going "idol" on this and that's pretty much it. You're not truly looking at this from both standpoints of those fighters in their prime. |
If Tillis, Green, Smith, and Tucker can take him the distance, what makes you think Ali can't... come on bro, add all those figthers together and they still aren't half the boxer Ali was. If Ferguson, Thomas, Biggs, and Bruno got past the 5th round against Mike, your telling me Ali couldn't survive Tyson's earlier onslaught, but those bums did? You're joking right? Hell, an aged over the hill Larry Holmes made it to the 4th round with Mike And all those fights took place in his prime....
Ali survived Liston's onslaught, he survived Foreman's onslaught (heavier hard punch then Mike), hell he survived Norton's (another heavy hitter) going 15 rounds with him, after getting his jaw broken in the first round, yet you are going to tell me Ali couldn't survive Tyson, please. And Tyson's the one that never faced a fighter/boxer like Ali, with the speed, with the foot work, with the power, with the heart, and the smarts that he possed. Tyson fought NOBODYS and aged former champions in his prime! There are no Foreman's or Fraizer's on Tyson's 'Prime' resume. Tyson was never even tested because he fought bums. Ali would pick him apart point blank!
I think you are the one having a problem with 'idolizing' Mike. |
Ali CAN go the distance with Mike. And he'd have to do it the same exact ways those others did - Hold, Clinch, Run, Grab. Woul Ali do that? Probably. Because Ali would be smart enough to know that he couldn't withstand Mike's ferociousness and his aggressiveness.
And again, you bring up the Liston fight. Old Liston. Much slower Liston. And certainly much slower than Tyson. Bad example. And no, Foreman didn't punch harder than Mike because Foreman was slow and powerful while Mike was fast and powerful, simple physics come into play at that point. Same as Norton - Not fast as Mike. Have you even seen Mike Tyson fight BEFORE 2002, bro? .
But you do seem rather emotional over Ali, bro. And that's not a shot I'm taking at you but rather an observation. The same way as some MJ fans don't want to see anyone better than him, and the same with Ruth fans...They feel their guy was unbeatable and there's no one that can tell them otherwise. It is what it is. |
Mike might be the single most overrated boxer of all time. Killed a bunch of nobodies as a youngster, at a time when Michael freakin' Spinks was the best "heavyweight" out there, got complacent and got beat by a guy who was too dumb to fear him, leading to everybody following the strategy, after which he had to bite another puffed up light-weight who was not only taking his measure, but beating the crap out of him.
What Lux refuses to understand (perhaps because he's never really watched any Ali fights) is that Ali stood toe-to-toe with numerous punchers in mike's class, while Mike never beat a fighter of any quality that actually fought back.
Also, Mike never had any real solid all-around boxing skills. Even his rudimentary defenses were built around his search and destroy, straight at you style. He just walked across the ring and attacked, hence his inability to do anything with a guy who could take a punch, but more importantly, stick and move (laterally). Ali was a master of hitting on the move, and often outslugged his opponent while moving backward and sideways. Mike became very frustrated very quickly, something Ali would have capitalized on.
But hey, who am I to side with the experts when Lux is here to give us the straight scoop? 
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Mike might be the single most overrated boxer of all time. Killed a bunch of nobodies as a youngster, at a time when Michael freakin' Spinks was the best "heavyweight" out there, got complacent and got beat by a guy who was too dumb to fear him, leading to everybody following the strategy, after which he had to bite another puffed up light-weight who was not only taking his measure, but beating the crap out of him.
What Lux refuses to understand (perhaps because he's never really watched any Ali fights) is that Ali stood toe-to-toe with numerous punchers in mike's class, while Mike never beat a fighter of any quality that actually fought back.
Also, Mike never had any real solid all-around boxing skills. Even his rudimentary defenses were built around his search and destroy, straight at you style. He just walked across the ring and attacked, hence his inability to do anything with a guy who could take a punch, but more importantly, stick and move (laterally). Ali was a master of hitting on the move, and often outslugged his opponent while moving backward and sideways. Mike became very frustrated very quickly, something Ali would have capitalized on.
But hey, who am I to side with the experts when Lux is here to give us the straight scoop? |
Now, anyone that claims Mike was overrated truly didn't watch the sport during his reign. Mike was the single most threatening Heavyweight ever. I trip off how people would claim other boxers WOULDN'T be afraid of him when it took a man that was in the best shape of his professional fighting life couple with the recent death of his mother, so he had nothing to lose to stand up to an out of shape, overconfident Tyson - who knocked him down in the 8th and had it not been for the bell, that upset would not have happened.
And Ali stood toe-to-toe with NO ONE like Mike. That's what funny, NO ONE here can even mention another fighter that had Mike's speed and power, along with defensive skills and ferociousness. All you guys wanna do is state his opponents, as if Ali never fought bums - and when he was KNOCKED DOWN BY SOME OF THOSE BUMS.
And when I read this, I knew right then you just don't have a clue about the boxing game, bro
| Quote: | | Also, Mike never had any real solid all-around boxing skills. |
 Uh, yeah. Mike was one of the most well-versed fighters ever in the game. Dude knew so much about boxing that it wasn't funny. He knew the history of the fight game along with its greatest fighters. He mixed his skills with what he got from reading and studying all the greats, including the vaunted Ali.
So, yeah...Get some SERIOUS rest, bro, for that one...For real. 
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Bballguru5000
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | ^^ I agree with 24, Ali took down Liston twice...Liston was all the animal Tyson was in the ring, during his prime... and Big George Forman, in his prime would take out Tyson, in his prime, IMO.
Ali is considered the Greatest of All Time for a reason!!! |
C'mon, bro. Liston was done by then. Everyone knows that. Plus, Liston wasn't anywhere near as fast as Mike was, THAT'S what made Mike a freak - Middleweight speed with Heavyweight power. Foreman would be able to match Mike punch for punch, but Mike's superior speed would out pace Foreman. |
But Foreman had one thing that Tyson lacked. Reach. Of course, I wasn't yet born during those glory years of boxing, I'm simply going by what I have read and fights seen on ESPN classic. But one thing Ali could take was a punch. It's a great topic of argument, but in the end Ali would prevail.
I know Tyson fought taller fighter with long reaches than Foreman, but none of them would even come close to Foreman's caliber at his prime. Ali would have an easier time with Tyson than he did with Foreman, since he wouldn't have to go to the ropes and could keep Tyson away with jabs.
Last edited by Bballguru5000 on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:33 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Bballguru5000
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
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Bballguru5000
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | Now that Bolt has the WR in the 200 meters... I want to see himn go up against a in his prime Michael Johnson.... |
That would be a great race! |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | ^^ I agree with 24, Ali took down Liston twice...Liston was all the animal Tyson was in the ring, during his prime... and Big George Forman, in his prime would take out Tyson, in his prime, IMO.
Ali is considered the Greatest of All Time for a reason!!! |
C'mon, bro. Liston was done by then. Everyone knows that. Plus, Liston wasn't anywhere near as fast as Mike was, THAT'S what made Mike a freak - Middleweight speed with Heavyweight power. Foreman would be able to match Mike punch for punch, but Mike's superior speed would out pace Foreman. |
But Foreman had one thing that Tyson lacked. Reach. Of course, I wasn't yet born during those glory years of boxing, I'm simply going by what I have read and fights seen on ESPN classic. But one thing Ali could take was a punch. It's a great topic of argument, but in the end Ali would prevail. |
But Foreman had no finish in him. And reach disadvantage never was an issue with prime Mike. He just imposed his will on fighters. And Ali could take a punch. But he was never punched by the likes of Tyson. Again, name a heavyweight that had the combo of speed and power that Tyson. There isn't one. Not one. Ali can take a punch but Ali also got knocked down. Tyson knocked people down and out.
If Foreman and Frazier could get to Ali...and if scrubs like Cooper, Wepner, and Banks could as well, there's no one here who could even counter with an argument saying Mike couldn't. I'm STILL waiting for someone to wage an argument on that but I know they can't.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
And as I said in my above post, Cooper and Wepner, along with Sonny Banks knocked him down as well. Now, the mere fact that you feel it was a lucky punch tells me you shouldn't be having this discussion with me because you haven't seen those knockdowns. You're going off "myth" and not actual observation of the fight game.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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Bballguru5000
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
And as I said in my above post, Cooper and Wepner, along with Sonny Banks knocked him down as well. Now, the mere fact that you feel it was a lucky punch tells me you shouldn't be having this discussion with me because you haven't seen those knockdowns. You're going off "myth" and not actual observation of the fight game. |
I have seen the fight with Cooper, when Ali was knocked down. I haven't seen the ones with Sonny Banks and Wepner. ESPN Classic/ YouTube is all I have available, unfortunately. I wasn't born then. My argument about a 'lucky punch" was not as literal as you took it. Do you disagree that any fighter at that level has a "punchers chance" to hit an opponent with enough force to knock them down? Buster Douglas got on on Mike and it took him out. I wouldn't necessarily say Buster was a better fighter as a result. And the only difference here is that Ali got back up and finished them off.
It really doesn't matter what we argue, since all this is subjective. IMO, Ali would have prevailed against Tyson BASED on the fights I have seen of most of them on tape. I missed both of them at their primes. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
And as I said in my above post, Cooper and Wepner, along with Sonny Banks knocked him down as well. Now, the mere fact that you feel it was a lucky punch tells me you shouldn't be having this discussion with me because you haven't seen those knockdowns. You're going off "myth" and not actual observation of the fight game. |
I have seen the fight with Cooper, when Ali was knocked down. I haven't seen the ones with Sonny Banks and Wepner. ESPN Classic/ YouTube is all I have available, unfortunately. I wasn't born then. My argument about a 'lucky punch" was not as literal as you took it. Do you disagree that any fighter at that level has a "punchers chance" to hit an opponent with enough force to knock them down? Buster Douglas got on on Mike and it took him out. I wouldn't necessarily say Buster was a better fighter as a result. And the only difference here is that Ali got back up and finished them off.
It really doesn't matter what we argue, since all this is subjective. IMO, Ali would have prevailed against Tyson BASED on the fights I have seen of most of them on tape. I missed both of them at their primes. |
Yes, any person with sufficient amount of boxing training can get a lucky punch in. However, is it really lucky when it's a trained fighter? No. Why? Because that's what these guys are TRAINED TO DO: Fight. So any punch that lands is a SKILLED shot. And Buster didn't land a single lucky punch on Mike. Buster tagged Mike several times with skilled shots.
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Bballguru5000
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
And as I said in my above post, Cooper and Wepner, along with Sonny Banks knocked him down as well. Now, the mere fact that you feel it was a lucky punch tells me you shouldn't be having this discussion with me because you haven't seen those knockdowns. You're going off "myth" and not actual observation of the fight game. |
I have seen the fight with Cooper, when Ali was knocked down. I haven't seen the ones with Sonny Banks and Wepner. ESPN Classic/ YouTube is all I have available, unfortunately. I wasn't born then. My argument about a 'lucky punch" was not as literal as you took it. Do you disagree that any fighter at that level has a "punchers chance" to hit an opponent with enough force to knock them down? Buster Douglas got on on Mike and it took him out. I wouldn't necessarily say Buster was a better fighter as a result. And the only difference here is that Ali got back up and finished them off.
It really doesn't matter what we argue, since all this is subjective. IMO, Ali would have prevailed against Tyson BASED on the fights I have seen of most of them on tape. I missed both of them at their primes. |
Yes, any person with sufficient amount of boxing training can get a lucky punch in. However, is it really lucky when it's a trained fighter? No. Why? Because that's what these guys are TRAINED TO DO: Fight. So any punch that lands is a SKILLED shot. And Buster didn't land a single lucky punch on Mike. Buster tagged Mike several times with skilled shots. |
Luxury, yes, they're skilled fighters, but no one with any amount of skill or training can avoid being surprised by a punch. Not Ali. Not Frazier. Not Foreman. And not Tyson. The element of surprise is always there in the boxing ring. I've watched Tyson's significant fights early in his career on tape or on-line. The fear factor is obviously apparent in those fights. The psychological advantages Tyson had early in his career would not be a factor against, say, Foreman or Ali.
By the way, my dad some years ago was throwing out some old collectibles and he asked me if I wanted the fight program of Ali vs. Foreman. It's in mint condition. Not that it's worth anything, but it's nice, anyway. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Top 10 Sports Matchups You'd Want To See |
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| Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Bballguru5000 wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: |
Ali's fighting skills were also superior to Henry Cooper...yet Cooper decked him. Now, if Cooper can knock Ali down....I'm pretty confident that Mike can easily knock down Ali. |
So the fact that Cooper knocked Ali down once automatically proves Tyson can also knock down Ali? Any fighter at that level can land a lucky punch and knock down a fighter. Very few go through an entire career without at least getting knocked down a few times.
| LuxuryBrown wrote: |
And Ali went round for round with Foreman but he never took him head-on. Why? Because he KNEW that, even with his speed, that Foreman could knock him out with those meatclubs of his. Mike is a more devastating puncher and faster than Foreman. |
Like I said in the previous post, Mike didn't have Foreman's reach, and that would be his undoing. Tyson's height and reach was his curse. Foreman would land way too many punches before Tyson could get in to do any damage. The fear factor Tyson had early in his career would not be an advantage against the Foremans and the Alis. |
And as I said in my above post, Cooper and Wepner, along with Sonny Banks knocked him down as well. Now, the mere fact that you feel it was a lucky punch tells me you shouldn't be having this discussion with me because you haven't seen those knockdowns. You're going off "myth" and not actual observation of the fight game. |
I have seen the fight with Cooper, when Ali was knocked down. I haven't seen the ones with Sonny Banks and Wepner. ESPN Classic/ YouTube is all I have available, unfortunately. I wasn't born then. My argument about a 'lucky punch" was not as literal as you took it. Do you disagree that any fighter at that level has a "punchers chance" to hit an opponent with enough force to knock them down? Buster Douglas got on on Mike and it took him out. I wouldn't necessarily say Buster was a better fighter as a result. And the only difference here is that Ali got back up and finished them off.
It really doesn't matter what we argue, since all this is subjective. IMO, Ali would have prevailed against Tyson BASED on the fights I have seen of most of them on tape. I missed both of them at their primes. |
Yes, any person with sufficient amount of boxing training can get a lucky punch in. However, is it really lucky when it's a trained fighter? No. Why? Because that's what these guys are TRAINED TO DO: Fight. So any punch that lands is a SKILLED shot. And Buster didn't land a single lucky punch on Mike. Buster tagged Mike several times with skilled shots. |
Luxury, yes, they're skilled fighters, but no one with any amount of skill or training can avoid being surprised by a punch. Not Ali. Not Frazier. Not Foreman. And not Tyson. The element of surprise is always there in the boxing ring. I've watched Tyson's significant fights early in his career on tape or on-line. The fear factor is obviously apparent in those fights. The psychological advantages Tyson had early in his career would not be a factor against, say, Foreman or Ali.
By the way, my dad some years ago was throwing out some old collectibles and he asked me if I wanted the fight program of Ali vs. Foreman. It's in mint condition. Not that it's worth anything, but it's nice, anyway. |
No, you missed my point: They're all capable of landing punches because they're trained to punch, so no punch thrown or landed would be lucky.
And maybe Ali wouldn't be "scared" but he'd certainly be very worried and concerned with Mike Tyson's speed, power, and ferociousness. See, this is another example of people thinking Ali never feared no one. Ever. People act like Ali would just run up to Mike and just knock him out because "He never feared any boxer ever". Don't let the boastful ways and antics of Ali trick you into thinking he was never worried or cautious of anyone.
If Ali was fighting in Tyson's prime era, he'd be VERY MUCH AWARE of what Tyson's capable of doing and he would be VERY MUCH WORRIED about getting hit by Tyson. Ali's no fool. He said he was very much worried about Foreman's power It's the myth of Ali that has some people thinking he didn't fear any fighter.
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TACH
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:39 am Post subject: |
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^^There is a huge difference between "being scared or fearing an opponent" and being "concern/worried/aware" of a fighter's strengths. You wouldn't be a good fighter is you didn't recognize an opponents strengths, so of course Ali was "concern/worried/aware" about Foreman's punching power, if he wasn't he wouldn't be a smart fighter or one of the best boxers of all time.
And we all know Mike was a mental midget both in and out of the ring (and yes during his prime as well). He was easliy frustrated in the ring. And with his inability to adapt to difference types of situation in the ring, Ali would most certainly take advantage of that. One of Mike's advantages in the ring would be turned against if he fought Ali. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | ^^There is a huge difference between "being scared or fearing an opponent" and being "concern/worried/aware" of a fighter's strengths. You wouldn't be a good fighter is you didn't recognize an opponents strengths, so of course Ali was "concern/worried/aware" about Foreman's punching power, if he wasn't he wouldn't be a smart fighter or one of the best boxers of all time.
And we all know Mike was a mental midget both in and out of the ring (and yes during his [b]prime as well). [/b]He was easliy frustrated in the ring. And with his inability to adapt to difference types of situation in the ring, Ali would most certainly take advantage of that. One of Mike's advantages in the ring would be turned against if he fought Ali. |
Show me proof he was a mental midget during his prime. Name a fight that proves this.
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