Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:31 am Post subject:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's pretty much how I see the fight going. Mayweather tagging Hagler with jabs. Hagler had a great chin though and would power his way through a couple of them to tag Mayweather with some good ones which is more or less how the Sugar Ray fight went. I still maintain that Hagler should've won that fight in the first place. _________________ "Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are."
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject:
thats a fight Ray won on style points. It could have gone either way ...... but as the champion Hagler should have dictated to Ray the ring size for one thing. Ray wanted the bigger ring so that he had more room to operate. Ray needed that fight more than Hagler needed it. Other than a big payday, what could Marvin actually win from that fight?
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 17429 Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense. _________________
Quote:
Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 17429 Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds. _________________
Quote:
Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds.
Was the only time I really saw Hagler hurt and with that cut coming from his grill, just a classic fight. I don't even think one jab was thrown in that fight. Easily in my top 5.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds.
Whatever else you want to say about them, those were some tough dudes, both of them. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject:
only argument about the Hitman was he was 1-2 in his big three fights. There's a book out there called "The Four Kings" which I gotta go pick up.
Talks about the bouts with Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Leonard.
Hearns got KO'd vs Leonard and Hagler (don't count that 2nd one with Sugar) and had one of the most devastating KO's on Duran ever seen. Just a classic bomb.
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 17429 Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:47 am Post subject:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds.
Was the only time I really saw Hagler hurt and with that cut coming from his grill, just a classic fight. I don't even think one jab was thrown in that fight. Easily in my top 5.
Exactly. "Haymakers Delight"! _________________
Quote:
Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 17429 Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:47 am Post subject:
24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds.
Whatever else you want to say about them, those were some tough dudes, both of them.
Undeniably so! _________________
Quote:
Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 8125 Location: Born and Raised in Los Angeles, now living in Manhattan, NY.
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:40 pm Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
doughboy90650 wrote:
The Predator wrote:
Rehashing on an earlier argument, I do think Hagler's speed was underrated. He was enough to keep up with Sugar Ray and really should've won their fights. But the thing of it was that he could also hit like a truck. I think he would've taken Mayweather, who is a great fighter in his own right.
But this is the fun of debating past eras.
If Hagler and Floyd fought, it probably woulda been at a catch weight of 154 .... Hagler would have come down from middleweight and Floyd would had to move up from 147.
Floyd wouldnt have knocked Hagler out but his hand speed might get Marvin problems. Hagler probably would win though. Dude woulda just stalked Floyd until he got close.
That's a tough call, because there's no way of knowing how the weight gain/loss would bother both fighters. But if there was no problem for either at whatever weight they reached, I see Floyd winning by decision. His speed and defensive skills would've been enough to avoid any straight on shots, that was Floyd's most underrated gift - defense.
Floyd would definitely hafta keep the fight off the ropes and in the center of the ring ..... Marvin killed people when they were on the ropes. Only one to really do damage to Marvin off the ropes was Hearns and that last only three rounds
Man. That Hearns/Hagler fight was "frantic war" for those 3 rounds.
I've only seen tapes of that fight since it's before my time, but that's probably the best 3-round fight I have ever seen. That was more like a street brawl than a boxing match.
Did Wepner knock Ali out? Did Norton? Frazier? Foreman? Shavers? Quarry? Liston? I just listed 6 boxers (i didn't include Wepner ) that were better than anyone Tyson ever beat
Now, were ANYONE of those that knocked Ali down better than Tyson?
And how was he "screwing around"? Where's the evidence of that? Are you saying he was taunting and sticking his tongue out and not taking the fighters seriously? Sounds an awful like an excuse - in fact - it IS.
Look, there's no shame in ANY fighter getting knocked down, the point is, he got knocked down by lesser fighters than Tyson - a man KNOWN for knocking people out. That's why I think it's ridiculous for people to avoid and dance around that KEY FACT that Mike could knock Ali out.
So again: Knowing what we know about the 2 fighters - Prime Tyson (86-91) would definitely be able to hit/knock down/knock out Prime Ali. Anyone who can't see that is simply idolizing Ali into myth. The only way Ali avoids any of that is if he sticks and moves and holds whenever Mike gets in close. The bottomline is, Mike is gonna get at least one shot in. It's inevitable.
Again, you ignore the basis of a debate, to present evidence of one's claims. You say that anyone who disagrees with the opinion that Tyson would knock out Ali, an opinion largely bereft of cogent evidence or anything beyond mythological hero-worship of Tyson, not to mention an opinion widely disputed by boxing cognoscenti, is simply idolizing Ali.
I could respond that anyone who doesn't see, or rather guarantee Ali winning is stupid. This doesn't get us anywhere, it merely creates a dogmatic standoff.
Ali was never knocked out by a myriad of guys who hit as hard or harder than Tyson. He was knocked down by a couple guys he didn't take seriously. This is no excuse, merely an acknowledgement that the great Ali sometimes didn't take nobodies seriously enough in the ring. He did, however, take his training seriously enough so that, unlike Tyson, he could get back up and finish them off.
Common sense tells us Ali would take Tyson seriously (as I suspect Mike would take Ali), and the evidence tells us that when serious, he didn't get knocked out by punchers of Mike's caliber. And he took some great shots from them.
You cite Mike's speed, but fail to notice it was only straight-line speed. Mike simply leaped at his opponent, used his peekaboo style to ward off blows on the way in, and hit them til they dropped. You also fail to see that those fighters mostly ran from him, or when they stood and fought, were not of sufficient skill to beat him. Nobody until Douglas worked the angles, shifting deftly sideways and launching shots from the oblique angle, forcing mike to move and turn laterally, something he was unfamiliar and wholely inadequate at.
Everything we know tells us that Ali's speed, reach, smarts, and fantastic footwork would have him emulating that gameplan, only with superior talent. He would hit Mike from all angles, often while slipping and moving away from his power. It's possible that Mike might get him with a shot, even knock him down, but there's no evidence that Ali wouldn't get back up and methodically take him apart. We know Ali had a superior chin to any fighter Mike fought during your truncated period, and in fact to any fighter Tyson fought, ever.
Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.
Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.
Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 8125 Location: Born and Raised in Los Angeles, now living in Manhattan, NY.
Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
^^ It was intense. I saw it live on TV. Amazing. Plus, Hearns' Jheri curl was forever ruined that night.
Since I'm sure there was plenty of pre-fight hype and hoopla, would it be safe to say the fight didn't disappoint fans, despite it lasting only 3 rounds? Did it meet your expectations?
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 17429 Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject:
Bballguru5000 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
^^ It was intense. I saw it live on TV. Amazing. Plus, Hearns' Jheri curl was forever ruined that night.
Since I'm sure there was plenty of pre-fight hype and hoopla, would it be safe to say the fight didn't disappoint fans, despite it lasting only 3 rounds? Did it meet your expectations?
I don't recall how much hype it had but it was beyond what I expected. _________________
Quote:
Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:30 am Post subject:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
Bballguru5000 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
^^ It was intense. I saw it live on TV. Amazing. Plus, Hearns' Jheri curl was forever ruined that night.
Since I'm sure there was plenty of pre-fight hype and hoopla, would it be safe to say the fight didn't disappoint fans, despite it lasting only 3 rounds? Did it meet your expectations?
I don't recall how much hype it had but it was beyond what I expected.
I got the distinct feeling that those two had a personal dislike for each other that transcended the norm, even in a violent sport like boxing. How often do you see two great, smart fighters just abandon the game plan and duke it out in the middle? It was a great spectacle, two guys who were both tough and deadly, risking it all to settle it in the most brutal and visceral manner. Didn't matter how long it lasted. It was a classic. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:34 am Post subject:
unleasHell wrote:
The one I ENJOYED watching was Sugar Ray Leonard!
was he the best?
probably not...
Probably not the best but he definitely could muster some votes. Classic speed and very sneaky power. Too bad he didn't stay retired and have Terry Norris knock out his bottom tooth .... LOL
HBO's new documentary, "the Thrilla in Manilla" is a must watch for any boxing fans. I've never been a big fan of Ali and this documentary made me dislike him even more. It has a ton of incredible tidbits that I had never heard before, like how Frazier was helping Ali financially for awhile and how Ali expressed his negative opinion of interracial marriage when he spoke at a Ku Klux Klan rally. Larry Holmes also goes on record in the film saying Ali was overrated and a soft puncher.
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Exactly. "Haymakers Delight"!
