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Rick12322
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 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| safari_in_cali wrote: | | You're making $50K a year and your boss told you that you're getting a $5K bonus. Would you give your bonus check to your friend, so he stays? We're only talking about $5K here, it won't break you, right? |
absolutely! I've given a hell of a lot more than that. Money isn't everything, people are far more important. |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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^^^^
Guys, I don't think we are even discussing correct question, to tell you the truth.
As we talked about earlier on the year - by NOT opting out this summer Kobe effectively will REMOVE himself from "sacrifice" discussion as well as will give himself a chance to opt out next summer when there are REAL options/alternatives available (at least - in order to have some negotiating power at the discussion table) without virtually losing any money in the process (as you can see from the article).
Honestly speaking - I don't believe "should he or should not" is a correct question.
There is no need screaming "BS! Kobe deserved every penny!" - nobody disputes that. He has deserved every penny of the contracts he has played already. It has nothing to do with his FUTURE, most likely, last NBA contract for Kobe. Is everyone, who screams so loud NOW, absolutely positive that Kobe during 2013-2014 season (at the age of 35) will be worth $32MM  After 17 long seasons in the NBA
I do believe that Kobe has a right for input on personnel decisions. But do you really picture that Dr. Buss is stupid to the extent of calling Kobe and giving him an ultimatum - take a paycut or take a hike
On the other hand - what's wrong with Dr. Buss sitting him down and having a conversation.
- Hey, man, here we are - we've gotta make some hard decisions here. Last season players' cost was $77MM. This year, with championship and all, our revenues stayed the same but players' cost exceeded $88MM. And next year the revenues will reduce but I am ready to fork out another $12MM for our players, thus making payroll cost $100MM. Yes, I know - it's risky but I do want to win. I have assigned Mitch to dump some contracts but it doesn't seem doable in today's economy.
So - we have to cut somewhere. Lets' see what we can do. We can disregard all the draft picks - it's not a time to bring someone else in. We also can cut one of Josh/DJ Mbenga duo by not picking an option. Straight payroll for players signed already will be $76MM ($81MM including the luxury tax). It leaves us $9.5MM ($19MM - including tax) for 3 unsigned players: LO, Trevor and Shannon. What do we do, Kob
I don't see anything wrong with this conversation...
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Kobe's response to Buss would be the same response that anyone else would have - it's your company. You figure it out.
When a company has to make financial decisions, they don't make their top salesman the CFO do they?
I'm also curious about how much Phil is planning on sacrificing. He can opt out of his contract this summer as well. He has made more than enough money during his career and his kids are all grown up so he doesn't even need to worry about putting them through school. |
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82410
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | 82410 wrote: | | Username wrote: | | 82410 wrote: | | Username wrote: | | Sister Golden Hair wrote: | Interesting. And here I thought Kobe had passed the last hurdle in order to "prove" himself to the various opponents, fans, critics, etc. Apparently, there's one last hurdle: now he has to give even more of himself -- this time directly from his own pockets -- to prove that he's a good guy, team player, committed to winning, yadda yadda yadda.
Kobe gives his all year in, year out. Game in, game out. Can the same thing be said of LO? Has his game improved each and every off-season? To be frank, I would argue that LO has made a hell of a lot more in his most recent contract than his production merited. There were simply too many nights where he disappeared as I, strictly as a fan, felt cheated. I wonder how old Doc Buss felt? Or Kobe?
LO's misfortune at present is that he's a FA in a down market. Why that has anything to do with Kobe is beyond me.
I expect Ariza to get paid because of the alarmingly fast improvement he's shown from one season to the next. He's shown the requisite hunger to better himself, the requisite abilities to help the team win, and the requisite killer instinct to impose his will even in the biggest games. I don't think the organization expects or requires any to take a pay cut in order to pay Ariza.
Lo was great down the stretch. Too ofetn, however, he has not been great as a laker. It is ridiculous to expect Kobe to give up what he deserves to a player that has not always deserved what he's gotten.
Buss should pay both Ariza dn LO what they deserve, but I don't see why that needs to come out of Kobe's pocket. Now, if he chooses to do so, that's another matter altogether.
But I certainly would not think any less of Kobe by going after what the market will shell out for his services.
To place yet another unmerited burden on him is crazy after the way he's come through time and time again.
SGH |
Kobe whined and demanded a trade when he didn't have a team around him that he liked. Two years later, he has that team, they've won a championship and now what if the only way to keep that team together is for Kobe to take less money.
He doesn't have to and I certainly wouldn't blame him for not doing it, but we better not hear anymore complaining out of him if he doesn't. I'd hate to think one of the key pieces of what could have been a championship contender for the next 5 years goes elsewhere so Kobe can have a few extra millions. |
This is just moronic thinking, I'm sorry. Kobe said to the owner, get better players or I'm going to a team that will. That had nothing to do with money or anything else. Kobe wants to win, but he's not the GD owner for (bleep) sakes. If the Lakers don't want to pay LO or Ariza or Kobe, fine, someone else will. For (bleep) sakes now Kobe has to take ownership responsibility without having any ownership? I really thought some LA fans couldn't get any dumber.  |
It's called making a sacrifice to keep his team together. Everyone is going to have to do it. Odom will have to take less if he wants to stay. Buss will have to pay out the ass more than he wants to. And maybe, just maybe, it would help if Kobe took less money. He doesn't have to, but it would go a long long long way to help keeping this team together. |
Sounds like logical thinking...Now here's what I want you to do Monday. Go to your boss and take a pay cut so the secretary that takes the long lunches and misses a day a week for carpel tunnel can keep her job with your company (call it a sacrifice). An NBA team is not a co-op it is a freaking business. Buss is the owner, Kobe is the employee. If Buss would rather not pay max money to Kobe, perhaps someone else will. It's not up to Kobe to keep the team together, it's up to the owner. This might finally drive me away from these (bleep) boards. The (bleep) guy just busted a gut for his 4th title, won the MVP, didn't miss a game, played hurt sick, won gold for his country and some Laker fans think he should take a paycut...you know to show SACRIFICE and all  |
First of all, at my place of employment, I don't make anywhere near what Kobe makes. A "pay cut" for Kobe still sets him, his kids, his grandkids and probably his great grandkids up for life if they want.
Second, at my job, we aren't all working toward one goal of being the absolute best company we can be (well, maybe that's the idea, but nobody really cares). We're showing up to collect a check. I would hope Kobe's goal in playing basketball is to win championships. It's a job and he has to provide for his family, but I would hope his goal as a basketball player is to win as many championships as he possibly can. Therefore, as the leader of the team, making sacrifices might be in order to make that happen. We're expecting everyone else in the situation but Kobe to make a sacrifice here.
Once again, I don't think he HAS to do it and I'm not saying he definitely should do it. I'm simply saying that if it's been Kobe having a few more millions or keeping this team together, I'll take the latter. |
You don't make what Kobe does because the market dictates your worth. If you could do what Kobe does, the market would dictate you make more money. The logic is the same, taking less for another employee doesn't make sense. If Buss wants to give Kobe part of the team (wink wink when you retire) I'm sure Kobe would take less, otherwise he's an employee of a company and he's the prime reason the owner made 50 million last year.
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | Kobe's response to Buss would be the same response that anyone else would have - it's your company. You figure it out.
When a company has to make financial decisions, they don't make their top salesman the CFO do they?
I'm also curious about how much Phil is planning on sacrificing. He can opt out of his contract this summer as well. He has made more than enough money during his career and his kids are all grown up so he doesn't even need to worry about putting them through school. |
"anyone else would have", Hector?
I am not sure that You (or me - it doesn't matter) can talk from "ANYONE ELSE" perspective - only our own...
And your comparison doesn't work here. Kobe is not a top salesman - he is a top notch player that now understands that he can't do it alone.
I do agree with you that Phil might become a part of this discussion too. Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there.
"It's your company - YOU figure it out" is as smart of the response as if Dr. Buss stating "take a paycut or take a hike" would have been. Simply not smart and not constructive...
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| 82410 wrote: | | If Buss wants to give Kobe part of the team (wink wink when you retire) I'm sure Kobe would take less, otherwise he's an employee of a company and he's the prime reason the owner made 50 million last year. |
The owner DID NOT make $50MM last year to begin with.
And you can state that what Kobe has made in endorsements last year him being a Laker as one of the prime reasons. It is a two-sided sword...
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drzucchini
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | And you can state that what Kobe has made in endorsements last year him being a Laker as one of the prime reasons. It is a two-sided sword... |
It has more to do with being in a major market and less with the Lakers name itself. |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| drzucchini wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | And you can state that what Kobe has made in endorsements last year him being a Laker as one of the prime reasons. It is a two-sided sword... |
It has more to do with being in a major market and less with the Lakers name itself. |
No doubt (about being in a major market) but there is no need to underestimate the value of the brand. It's big
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drzucchini
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | And you can state that what Kobe has made in endorsements last year him being a Laker as one of the prime reasons. It is a two-sided sword... |
It has more to do with being in a major market and less with the Lakers name itself. |
No doubt (about being in a major market) but there is no need to underestimate the value of the brand. It's big |
If it were as big as you claim, then the borderline all-stars and all-stars on the team would be getting some sweet deals, too, but I don't see Gasol with any major endorsements. |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| drzucchini wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | drzucchini wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | And you can state that what Kobe has made in endorsements last year him being a Laker as one of the prime reasons. It is a two-sided sword... |
It has more to do with being in a major market and less with the Lakers name itself. |
No doubt (about being in a major market) but there is no need to underestimate the value of the brand. It's big |
If it were as big as you claim, then the borderline all-stars and all-stars on the team would be getting some sweet deals, too, but I don't see Gasol with any major endorsements. |
If it was as small as you claim - top notch player like Kobe would have earned may be half of what he has. You undervalue Lakers brand world wide...
And, BTW, according to some estimates, Gasol's endorsements doubled since he moved to LA. Economy or not... 
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drzucchini
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | And, BTW, according to some estimates, Gasol's endorsements doubled since he moved to LA. Economy or not... |
Are you making this up, or can you actually cite some reputable sources? |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| drzucchini wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | And, BTW, according to some estimates, Gasol's endorsements doubled since he moved to LA. Economy or not... |
Are you making this up, or can you actually cite some reputable sources? |
No - don't have any sources that I'd call "reputable" (agents or Pau himself) but didn't make it up - simple coincidence. That's what business people in Europe are saying (I was in Barcelona last May). I am going to Europe next week but won't stop by in Barcelona this time around (it will be France only). Otherwise I'd try to verify it with higher degree of certainty.
It was simply a basketball related conversation (Pau's brother just won MVP). So, guys simply mentioned that Pau has doubled in endorcements within several months period. They actually claimed that he had become the sports figure #1 (endorcements wise) that doesn't play "football" ( soccer).
Once more - I am not sure how true those statements are but majority of ads on ESPN Europe I had seen with no soccer player have been with Tiger Woods . Truth to be told though, I have seen Pau's commercials once or twice a day. Not much from our perspectives but we've gotta remember - it's Europe...
Funny enough - these guys have sent me concolation e-mail when we lost to the green devils later in June.
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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^^^^
Sorry - forgot to mention (as this discussion revolves around the Lakers brand): the Lakers brand is valued as the highest brand in the NBA.
And - yes, I do have reputable source for that  even though I don't think you'll dispute that.
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there. |
General Motors is cutting back, so we would like for you here at Toyota to do the same. |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there. |
General Motors is cutting back, so we would like for you here at Toyota to do the same. |
Another failed comparison, Hector. That might be a given but advanced scouts get several hundred thousand combined...
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | Kobe's response to Buss would be the same response that anyone else would have - it's your company. You figure it out.
When a company has to make financial decisions, they don't make their top salesman the CFO do they?
I'm also curious about how much Phil is planning on sacrificing. He can opt out of his contract this summer as well. He has made more than enough money during his career and his kids are all grown up so he doesn't even need to worry about putting them through school. |
"anyone else would have", Hector?
I am not sure that You (or me - it doesn't matter) can talk from "ANYONE ELSE" perspective - only our own...
And your comparison doesn't work here. Kobe is not a top salesman - he is a top notch player that now understands that he can't do it alone.
I do agree with you that Phil might become a part of this discussion too. Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there.
"It's your company - YOU figure it out" is as smart of the response as if Dr. Buss stating "take a paycut or take a hike" would have been. Simply not smart and not constructive... |
Kobe is a salesman. He's the top representative of the Lakers brand and the top seller of its merchandise worldwide. He's making his quota even in an economy where others see it as an impossible task. As blasphemous as it may seem, if you put Kobe and Magic on opposite ends of the largest open area in Beijing, Magic's going to be feeling a bit lonely.
Of course he can't win on his own. Nobody can, but that's a personnel issue that falls on management. He complained about not having the players he needed to win. Mitch and Buss got him those player and the team won. Not exactly a bad arrangement, especially when you consider that winning is the common goal amongst all of them. Dr. Buss' personalized license plate has nothing on it about ROI.
As for Phil becoming a part of the solution, don't hold your breath on that. I brought it up because I find it amusing that he would talk about financial sacrifice when he makes none himself and in fact continues to push the boundaries in an area where there are no league imposed limitations. He and Kobe are very much alike. Ultra competitive individuals with ginormous egos who see their paycheck as validation of their abilities.
He wouldn't take a cut any sooner than Kobe would, and in this situation, it's not about getting under the cap, so the expenditures don't need to be limited to the people in uniform. It's an overall budget issue.
As for other teams making cuts to their staffs because of budget constraints, it's irrelevant. Those teams don't have the benefit of the market or revenue of the Lakers. I doubt Buss cares one bit about their problems. It's akin to Mercedes Benz making adjustments to their expenditures because Tesla is having money problems. |
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there. |
General Motors is cutting back, so we would like for you here at Toyota to do the same. |
Another failed comparison, Hector. That might be a given but advanced scouts get several hundred thousand combined... |
Obviously Buss doesn't see it that way. Ever see Jill St. Clair scouting an NBA team? |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: |
Kobe is a salesman. He's the top representative of the Lakers brand and the top seller of its merchandise worldwide. He's making his quota even in an economy where others see it as an impossible task. As blasphemous as it may seem, if you put Kobe and Magic on opposite ends of the largest open area in Beijing, Magic's going to be feeling a bit lonely.
Of course he can't win on his own. Nobody can, but that's a personnel issue that falls on management. He complained about not having the players he needed to win. Mitch and Buss got him those player and the team won. Not exactly a bad arrangement, especially when you consider that winning is the common goal amongst all of them. Dr. Buss' personalized license plate has nothing on it about ROI.
As for Phil becoming a part of the solution, don't hold your breath on that. I brought it up because I find it amusing that he would talk about financial sacrifice when he makes none himself and in fact continues to push the boundaries in an area where there are no league imposed limitations. He and Kobe are very much alike. Ultra competitive individuals with ginormous egos who see their paycheck as validation of their abilities.
He wouldn't take a cut any sooner than Kobe would, and in this situation, it's not about getting under the cap, so the expenditures don't need to be limited to the people in uniform. It's an overall budget issue.
As for other teams making cuts to their staffs because of budget constraints, it's irrelevant. Those teams don't have the benefit of the market or revenue of the Lakers. I doubt Buss cares one bit about their problems. It's akin to Mercedes Benz making adjustments to their expenditures because Tesla is having money problems. |
A lot of words, Hector. And none of it justifies your "it's management's problem" answer.
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | Also (as far as I know) lesser teams are already sacrificing some positions (like advanced scouting) by cutting them. But there is not enough money there. |
General Motors is cutting back, so we would like for you here at Toyota to do the same. |
Another failed comparison, Hector. That might be a given but advanced scouts get several hundred thousand combined... |
Obviously Buss doesn't see it that way. Ever see Jill St. Clair scouting an NBA team? |
No. Don't laugh at my ignorance - I have no idea who is that
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Why wouldn't it be management's problem? Do I really need to post the definition of the role of management? |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | Why wouldn't it be management's problem? Do I really need to post the definition of the role of management? |
No offense - but if in your definition of the management role it doesn't have team leaders being a part of brain center solving problems I doubt you'll be able to get a job for my management team
Using your example - it's not a service crew we're talking about - that's your top gun salesman...
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Hector the Pup
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| golakersgo121 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Why wouldn't it be management's problem? Do I really need to post the definition of the role of management? |
No offense - but if in your definition of the management role it doesn't have team leaders being a part of brain center solving problems I doubt you'll be able to get a job for my management team
Using your example - it's not a service crew we're talking about - that's your top gun salesman... |
Phil and Kobe are consulted on personnel as it pertains to what they do, but they have nothing to do with the financial side of things.
It's 'do you want player x?' or 'we are considering trading x for y. what do you think?'. That's the extent of it. We have already heard their stances on both guys. They want Odom and Ariza back. Now, it's up to Mitch to get the job done or not get the job done.
Also, if you really spend that much time involving your entire management team in aspects of the business that don't fall under their control, then I don't think I'd want to be working for you. I have better things to do with my time than be consulted on whether or not to update the email server or make the switch from blackberries to iphones. If you want to switch the vending machines from Coke to Pepsi or change the coffee from Starbucks to something less expensive, you go right ahead and do it. I don't even need to be cc'd on the email announcing the change. |
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | | golakersgo121 wrote: | | Hector the Pup wrote: | | Why wouldn't it be management's problem? Do I really need to post the definition of the role of management? |
No offense - but if in your definition of the management role it doesn't have team leaders being a part of brain center solving problems I doubt you'll be able to get a job for my management team
Using your example - it's not a service crew we're talking about - that's your top gun salesman... |
Phil and Kobe are consulted on personnel as it pertains to what they do, but they have nothing to do with the financial side of things.
It's 'do you want player x?' or 'we are considering trading x for y. what do you think?'. That's the extent of it. We have already heard their stances on both guys. They want Odom and Ariza back. Now, it's up to Mitch to get the job done or not get the job done.
Also, if you really spend that much time involving your entire management team in aspects of the business that don't fall under their control, then I don't think I'd want to be working for you. I have better things to do with my time than be consulted on whether or not to update the email server or make the switch from blackberries to iphones. If you want to switch the vending machines from Coke to Pepsi or change the coffee from Starbucks to something less expensive, you go right ahead and do it. I don't even need to be cc'd on the email announcing the change. |
Exaggerate much, as usual, Hector?
You're a logical guy with great sense of humor - but you let it all go when you're trying to justify something unjustifiable.
Do you really, really think that the problem on hands is whether or not to have a blackberry or iphone? coke or pepsi wending machine at El Segundo?
Involving your management team in strategic decisions is "management 101", Hector. And the future of LO and Ariza is definitely one of them...
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Hector the Pup
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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It all likely becomes moot in 9 days, at least from the POV of what Phil and Kobe can or can't do about it.
After that, it really will strictly be up to management. |
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golakersgo121
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 11717
Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | It all likely becomes moot in 9 days, at least from the POV of what Phil and Kobe can or can't do about it.
After that, it really will strictly be up to management. |
Well - for all we know it might be moot already
But not "strictly up to management", Hector. Both Phil and Kobe (I hope) will be able to say "hey, if we have that much money left we go after player XXX" (and thinking "no way I leave MY money on the table" but not saying it )
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